The holy grail of BS7671 amendment 3 plastic vs metal c/u's

[baldsparkies]

Consumer units compliant with amendment 3 have to pass some kind of glow test to BSEN61439-3

I like many have seen and read information suggesting that all domestic consumer units will shortly need to be installed constructed of steel rather than plastic as a result of this new wonder ruling.

It would appear that this is not the case.
And looks like another red herring that comes to light every time those bored people sitting around a table want to create some extra cash.

Once again its down to us sparks to try and pick the wood from the trees, so I thought this link might help clear some of the only metal clad rumours.

http://www.doepke.co.uk/catalogue/Cat-pdf/conunits.pdf

 

[D Skelton]

Remember, I have never said I agreed with it...

No of course not, I know you don't. Just confirming that this isn't a new concern. We knew from the outset that if this regulation was introduced it would make a mockery of the industry. We also knew the reasons why certain parties were pushing for it to be introduced.

It's not a new thing is all I'm saying.

 

[Plonker 3]

I think the regulation is downright ridiculous. The trouble with complying with the MIs is most tend to include the line 'must be installed in accordance with current regulations' or words to that effect.

But as I have stated before in practice it doesn't bother me, when I was an apprentice we only used metalclad boards and to this day I carry on the same unless it's a TT or another good reason to fit plastic.

The question of TT systems has been raised already, but I think there is (or always used to be) an allowance for metal boards to be used if it is constructed so that it provides additional protection against damage to the tails entering it.

Completely agree, butnhow many of the metalclad DBs that have been and are installed today still compliant with the "new reg"?

 

[Gavin A]

This is where the "intent" of the regulation comes in.

the intent of the regulation should be made clear by the regulation wording, if it doesn't say fire sealed then it doesn't mean fire sealed, it means made from a non-combustable material, which is a very different thing.

They've used specific wording that has specific meanings, please don't read more into it than is actually contained in the words they've used.

 

[davesparks]

Completely agree, butnhow many of the metalclad DBs that have been and are installed today still compliant with the "new reg"?

I would have thought the current Schneider metal CU comes close with its metal fold down lid, which is just the revamp of the old square D metalclad board I think.

And perversely the old C50 boards probably come close with their metal lids too!

But I would think to comply properly the lid would need to be self closing/spring loaded.

 

[baldsparkies]

So now we know the score. How many of us are looking at our own c/u's and our friends and families c/u's. And thinking I need to get them all changed to metal clad.
Cus surely that's the bottom line.
To answer my own question, I'm not going to loose any sleep over this paranoid bull****.

 

[Gavin A]

So now we know the score. How many of us are looking at our own c/u's and our friends and families c/u's. And thinking I need to get them all changed to metal clad.
Cus surely that's the bottom line.
To answer my own question, I'm not going to loose any sleep over this paranoid bull****.

got it on my list of things do to before bed tonight.

I couldn't find a wholesalers open, so am about to start bricking it up, can't be too careful.

 

[trev]

Gav I reckon if you set off now you can get to mine in a couple of hours or so, I can sell you one of my spares if you like. By the time you go to work tomorrow you could have installed and tested a lovely new RCBO board.
To you, £500. What price peace of mind though

 

[Plonker 3]

So now we know the score. How many of us are looking at our own c/u's and our friends and families c/u's. And thinking I need to get them all changed to metal clad.
Cus surely that's the bottom line.
To answer my own question, I'm not going to loose any sleep over this paranoid bull****.

The only reason my folks dont still have a Wylex BS3036 board fitted is that I needed a job to use for my one and only ELECSA assesment so decided to change theres for them or it would still be sitting there now on the wall doing no harm what soever .

 

[Gavin A]

Gav I reckon if you set off now you can get to mine in a couple of hours or so, I can sell you one of my spares if you like. By the time you go to work tomorrow you could have installed and tested a lovely new RCBO board.
To you, £500. What price peace of mind though

ah, I'd love to take you up on that, but I seem to have been doing the brickwork from the wrong side.

 

[Engineer54]

The only reason my folks dont still have a Wylex BS3036 board fitted is that I needed a job to use for my one and only ELECSA assesment so decided to change theres for them or it would still be sitting there now on the wall doing no harm what soever .

And you won't find any of those wooden framed Wylex BS 3036 CU's (whether fitted with later MCB's or not) catching fire too easily either!!

I've never seen one come close to catching fire from internal faults. The wood used was pressure treated hardwood and the front cover was made of a bakelite material, as was the busbar carriers and main switch. Although later the front cover was changed to a fire retardant plastic, around the time when the white coloured versions became available....

 

[Silly Sausage]

Dillb,
You have missed totally the requirement and the intent of the reg.
It is the ENCLOSURE, that must be made of the required material.
Which, BEAMA have decreed as steel.
Where the breakers stick out through their enclosing face is irrelevant.
IF some **** takes the cover off, then they become the designer of the equipment and they place the unit on the market under the LVD, thus they are totally responsible formthe design, type testing, manufacture, supply and fitting, so if the unit catches fire and burns the house down, killing people, they WILL be in the dock for manslaughter.

BEAMA says that the primary root-cause of fires in consumer units has been clearly identified as resulting from loose connections and this new regulation is intended to provide a level of enhanced fire risk protection in this event.

Which is precisely what everyone has been saying!!!!!!
Fix the problem, not the symptoms.


http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/C40E3B3B-EE5B-4510-8714386742BF5358

I can't see any 'decree' that CUs must be steel.
Only "... steel is deemed to be one example of a non-combustible material that meets the intent of the regulation."


edit:

From this: BEAMA clarifies the new consumer unit regulation in BS 7671:2008 Amendment 3 | Voltimum UK

“A further point for clarification is that plastic enclosures manufactured from 960 degree glow-wire rated material would not be classified as ‘non-combustible’ in the context of this regulation.

 

[Gavin A]

ah, so that's where NBP got the intent stuff from.

If that was their intent then they could really have done with consulting with someone with some expertise in fire regulations, then they might have actually got the terminology right in the actual regulations rather than relying on people reading a supplementary advisory document that's presumably not referenced from the regs.

If non-combustable wasn't the correct term they were looking for then the should have found the correct term to use that did mean what they wanted it to mean, as non-combustable is clearly defined by an EN standards.

It's seems a complete nonsense to me to even talk in terms of containment of fire when the cable entry holes are allowed to be IP2x, which I'd think would be plenty of space for air to circulate, and flames to escape up any IP2x cable entries at the top using the cables sheath and insulation as fuel (and plastic conduit immediately outside the cable entry hole probably).

I can understand the intentions, but can't see it doing what they want it to.

Unless they've actually done some real world fire simulations on this.

 

[AA410]

Can someone tell me what is the difference between bsen 61439-3 and the old metal clad bsen 60439-3 fuse board

 

[Octopus]

So how much money are the CU manufacturers going to be spending om marketing to educate Joe Public then?

I doubt it'll be much and as usual the dedicated spark is made to look as if he's ripping them off with "unnecessary" costs and Dave from the pub will fit a plastic one far cheaper

 

[shanky887614]

technically as the actual regulation states non-combustable and the reg that defines it is a test at 750 etc.

then fit plastic or do you guys follow the onsite guide and nic books as gospel

 

[ImpededLoop]

I doubt it'll be much and as usual the dedicated spark is made to look as if he's ripping them off with "unnecessary" costs and Dave from the pub will fit a plastic one far cheaper

But will the consumer unit manufacturers continue to sell domestic plastic boards if there is little demand for them.

There will still be a need for IP rated enclosures for commercial use, but if this regulation does get interpreted as metal only, then plastic split load boards will probably stop being produced or will increase in price.

 

[baldsparkies]

Can someone tell me what is the difference between bsen 61439-3 and the old metal clad bsen 60439-3 fuse board

The second number.

 

[ruston]

So how much money are the CU manufacturers going to be spending om marketing to educate Joe Public then?

I doubt it'll be much and as usual the dedicated spark is made to look as if he's ripping them off with "unnecessary" costs and Dave from the pub will fit a plastic one far cheaper

I bet there will be a load of bargains on ebay - Nearly new 17th edition ........................

 

[netblindpaul]

Can someone tell me what is the difference between bsen 61439-3 and the old metal clad bsen 60439-3 fuse board

The requirements of the compliance standard the manufacturers need to comply with.