This is going to take me weeks.....

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littlespark

littlespark

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Got an EICR testing to do on a site soon. Some was done 2018, some 2014... but their office cant find the reports... So got to start from scratch on mapping out circuits.

There's 2 holiday cottages, half a day each. Modern RCBO consumer units. A cafe with some 3ph equipment, A workshop for the gardener/handyman and a little shop all in one courtyard.
Then there's the office, and a couple of self contained flats above, which i believe were last tested in 2020.. so can be left for now.

Then there's this.....

CRGP-Mellerstain-House-01.jpg

so far i've found 12 old fuseboards.... only a few have been "upgraded" to mcb. There must be more as they're labelled A,B,C,D etc... and i cant find E, J or L
Apart from the cottages, everything is a mix of singles in conduit, MICC, T&E........ Rewirable fuses, cartridge fuses, Old SquareD Qo type breakers (the black ones).....

There are rooms off staircases that don't appear on any of their plans... other doors that have been locked off for decades and the keys have disappeared. (there's a story there for another time)


And it all needs to be done before they open to the public at Easter.
 
littlespark said:
Got an EICR testing to do on a site soon. Some was done 2018, some 2014... but their office cant find the reports... So got to start from scratch on mapping out circuits.

There's 2 holiday cottages, half a day each. Modern RCBO consumer units. A cafe with some 3ph equipment, A workshop for the gardener/handyman and a little shop all in one courtyard.
Then there's the office, and a couple of self contained flats above, which i believe were last tested in 2020.. so can be left for now.

Then there's this.....

View attachment 106570

so far i've found 12 old fuseboards.... only a few have been "upgraded" to mcb. There must be more as they're labelled A,B,C,D etc... and i cant find E, J or L
Apart from the cottages, everything is a mix of singles in conduit, MICC, T&E........ Rewirable fuses, cartridge fuses, Old SquareD Qo type breakers (the black ones).....

There are rooms off staircases that don't appear on any of their plans... other doors that have been locked off for decades and the keys have disappeared. (there's a story there for another time)


And it all needs to be done before they open to the public at Easter.
Click to expand...
If you need a hand give me a shout - that’s right up my street as a daft challenge!! 😂
 
Looking at the size of that place, even a "drive by" EICR is going to take you an hour!
Mind you, I'd also be up for lending a hand as a daft challenge!
You'll need 3 or 4 helpers and a set of good walkie-talkies (one of the other great gadgets we use nowadays!)
Sadly, the Borders is just out of range for me.
 
I don't know about video diarys... There's some places in there they want kept off the internet for some reason. Hence the locked doors.. they don't want visitors on the guided tours stumbling across things.

I got into one of the self contained flats at the top of the right hand side tower there... full of old clothes, boxes, trinkets etc. There was a wooden chest that simply had "guns and swords" written on it.... and that's exactly what was in there. Musket pistols and a couple of short foils.

History is amazing... although i couldnt stand the lessons at school. This is real.

I'm surprised the guided tours only go through a handful of rooms now. Maybe they'll extend back down to the basement again where they used to show the butlers pantry with dumb waiter and servant call system.

There's a billiard table in one room not getting used, and years gone by, they used to hold weddings... so there's rooms in the basement set up for catering with separate metered supplies, as well as bedroom suites for the wedding party.

The show rooms also have hidden switches that bring on picture lights, and 5A sockets for table lamps, tucked away behind hinged doors on the wooden panelling.
 
Started with one of the holiday cottages today… and a handful of C3’s already. Nothing too serious.

Non standard set up. 2 cottages adjacent to each. Supplies come from one of the big DBs from the main house. Big DB also feeds public toilets.

From photo you can see SWA coming from main DB into isolator+mcb on right, through meter, for simple monitoring, then into cottage DB

You can get a bus through the holes the tails go through.

Underfloor heating in both cottages is fed from boiler for toilets… so that sw/fuse is live when cottage is isolated, and also on a different phase.

I believe (and will check next week when I do other cottage) that the hard wired smoke detectors are supplied from this cottage, but also feed the ones next door. Which means next door has all 3 phases present.

5D98F550-1848-4E42-B7FA-4C2D1A490268.jpeg
 
Just my day/ hourly rate…. And if they come back saying they can get it done for £80, then I’ll say it won’t be done right. (Which they won’t… but other customers did once)

It’s took me 3 hours once I got there to test the 6 circuits, dismantle part of the kitchen kickboard to find the main bond… map out the circuits as they weren't labelled… and another hour to type it up tonight.

While I’m on site, I’m still doing the odd repair job, prepping for other testing etc… they’re getting their value for money.
The testing is just part of the overall time I’m on site.

I send them a total invoice at the end of each week for days/ hours worked.
 
littlespark said:
While I’m on site, I’m still doing the odd repair job, prepping for other testing etc… they’re getting their value for money.
The testing is just part of the overall time I’m on site.

I send them a total invoice at the end of each week for days/ hours worked.
Click to expand...
That sounds like a good way of working for both parties.
 
littlespark said:
Started with one of the holiday cottages today… and a handful of C3’s already. Nothing too serious.

Non standard set up. 2 cottages adjacent to each. Supplies come from one of the big DBs from the main house. Big DB also feeds public toilets.

From photo you can see SWA coming from main DB into isolator+mcb on right, through meter, for simple monitoring, then into cottage DB

You can get a bus through the holes the tails go through.

Underfloor heating in both cottages is fed from boiler for toilets… so that sw/fuse is live when cottage is isolated, and also on a different phase.

I believe (and will check next week when I do other cottage) that the hard wired smoke detectors are supplied from this cottage, but also feed the ones next door. Which means next door has all 3 phases present.

View attachment 106624
Click to expand...
Some less experienced folk will learn much from how you approached this job. You're a top man.
 
Started on the cafe this morning… mapping circuits rather than testing… but this is the start of the interesting stuff.

Original 3ph fuse board with HRC cartridge fuses. Later added modern CU with RCD mainswitch, monitoring meter again.

Mix of metal conduit, plastic conduit, surface T&E and MICC…. Sometimes within the same circuit!

Joints in the trunking… including a 100A Henley block to supply the newer CU.

Oversized fuses for size of cable…. All lights on one fuse….

And I’m puzzled about the cable supplying the 3ph cooker. (3 separate fuses, I believe only single phase loads within the cooker itself, however)
The cable isn’t SWA. It’s 5 core (numbered on black) with a braided outer and transparent plastic sheath. I should have taken a better photo.
Come across it before on agricultural for grain dryer motor controls etc.

Isolated upstream in workshop, 63A MEM switch fuse complete with asbestos flash pads.

B9DDA518-2225-466B-9A66-4EB2655F3D36.jpeg
 
littlespark said:
Started on the cafe this morning… mapping circuits rather than testing… but this is the start of the interesting stuff.

Original 3ph fuse board with HRC cartridge fuses. Later added modern CU with RCD mainswitch, monitoring meter again.

Mix of metal conduit, plastic conduit, surface T&E and MICC…. Sometimes within the same circuit!

Joints in the trunking… including a 100A Henley block to supply the newer CU.

Oversized fuses for size of cable…. All lights on one fuse….

And I’m puzzled about the cable supplying the 3ph cooker. (3 separate fuses, I believe only single phase loads within the cooker itself, however)
The cable isn’t SWA. It’s 5 core (numbered on black) with a braided outer and transparent plastic sheath. I should have taken a better photo.
Come across it before on agricultural for grain dryer motor controls etc.

Isolated upstream in workshop, 63A MEM switch fuse complete with asbestos flash pads.

View attachment 106695
Click to expand...
Is cooker cable SY possibly?
 
Better photos of the mystery cable. 5 cores. (That I can see) and the braided cable.

Fairly recent addition as cores use brown/grey/blue tape as identification whereas some older cables using red/yellow/blue/black

1F0230DF-32EB-4811-951B-9E5C80B3FB5A.jpeg3ED90D2C-3CFB-40AD-8E5E-BDB880986564.jpeg
 
To those following this thread....

I'm having a mare already. Slight disagreement between myself and the old boy caretaker about what i'm coding the EICR. (he used to be a spark back in the 80's i think, and has done some of the maintenance before he got too old)

Ill not divulge straight away, but simply ask you guys to convince me im not going soft.


Taking the cafe as an example. What would you code, remembering all the large metallic appliances. Kitchen staff, but members of the general public in the seating area in the vicinity of sockets and heaters.

Old circuits are still on BS88 fuses.
Every light on the same fuse.
The 3 phase oven on 3 separate fuses. (although only single phase loads. Loss of one phase isn't going to cause massive problems)

The other distribution boards are much the same.... old bs88's in some places... fuse wire in others.
Some "upgraded" to circuit breakers, but there are very few RCD's across the whole site.... even in the modernised areas.



I don't want to come across as touting for work, but at what point do you have to say, look, this is unacceptable these days.... especially with public being able to access parts of it.
 
You really ought to know that is SY cable.
The fact the public have access to xyz isn't really relevant.
Separate fuses for a three phase oven is fine in fact it would be fine for the majority of circuits.
 
Well FWIW, if its all the correct vintage (which it probably is), not much you can do but code it strictly to BS7671. I have come across similar installs and wrote a separate report on my recommendations, because the Amtech S/W i use is messy when it comes to making a case for upgrade. Last job i recommended RCBOs to all sockets based on, blah, blah and i was pleasantly surprised when they agreed.
 
Nothing wrong with bs 88 fuses as long as they are rated correctly for the cable size. Code 3 for the sockets if they are not RCD protected . Could push to a code 2 if you believe they are being used outdoors. . Why do you think the metal appliance are an issue.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
littlespark said:
Started with one of the holiday cottages today… and a handful of C3’s already. Nothing too serious.

Non standard set up. 2 cottages adjacent to each. Supplies come from one of the big DBs from the main house. Big DB also feeds public toilets.

From photo you can see SWA coming from main DB into isolator+mcb on right, through meter, for simple monitoring, then into cottage DB

You can get a bus through the holes the tails go through.

Underfloor heating in both cottages is fed from boiler for toilets… so that sw/fuse is live when cottage is isolated, and also on a different phase.

I believe (and will check next week when I do other cottage) that the hard wired smoke detectors are supplied from this cottage, but also feed the ones next door. Which means next door has all 3 phases present.

View attachment 106624
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter that there are separate phases it is not a departure.
 
Separate fuses per phase are only a real issue if it can lead to a 3P motor limping along on a single phase and overheating, possibly becoming a fire risk. Normally the motor overload protection should stop that anyway and it is not a likely problem for such a property.

As above, I would follow the BPG#3 guidance which, though less readable now, is still C3 for no RCD in low-risk areas (i.e. typically indoors) and C2 for high risk areas (like out doors or in bathroom areas, etc.)

Lights all one one fuse is a bit dumb, but if loss of light is a serious risk anywhere then having emergency lighting is far more important as it also deals with a power cut.

I don't like SY cable but it is OK for indoor use (not UV tolerant) where the braid is not actually needed for penetration protection (not rated to clear OCPD). Its not really a very useful situation, but not specifically bad if those are not needed. SWA or Flexishield/BS8436 are cables that meet the penetration aspect, though for the foil types it is often only to a modest OCPD let-through like 20A MCB or similar.
 
Lighting circuits across three phases which share a common neutral, quite common in large scale warehouses and factories require linked circuit protection so separate fuses would not be suitable.
 
littlespark - After just over a week you have 808 views. Well done Sir. Folk are reading your posts with interest.

Do you keep a before and after record - written or photo - of the corrections you do for free or billed?

Do you do IR surveillance? ie:

Infrared Electrical Inspection, Electrical Testing Finds Hot Connections - Albany, NY | Infrared Imaging Services - https://www.infraredimagingservices.com/electrical-infrared/

If not then perhaps an added value yet paid for extra to such work as you are doing now? I have found it very useful in an industrial setting.
 
Haha. Well this is awkward…

I’ve just reported #29 as a possible bot / hacked account as I couldn’t see how the content referred to the thread…. But as there has been messages since by the same author, I may have jumped the gun somewhat.

Apologies.
 
DPG said:
Yeah that's worked out a bit unfortunate now that the post had been removed and the numbering changed :)
Click to expand...
Still there for me ??

Second cottage to do next week, finish the workshop…. Then start on big hoose!

Better get my running shoes looked out and make sure my Fitbit is charged up.
I’m expecting 20k steps a day!
 
It's cases like this where it's the duty of the Inspector to remember the first principles of the task - is it fit for continuing safe use?

Yes, we use markers and references to various regulations to help us make that decision and that now outdated concept of 'did it meet the regs in place at the time' is thankfully no longer an opt-out, but ultimately it's the experience and judgment of the inspector that's on the line. For example - you IR a circuit buried in an old hollow wall and get a reading of 2.1MOhm, technically that's compliant so not notable, yet to any of us with experience it instantly rings alarm bells and is probably either very old cable at the point of severe deterioration or vermin damage. So now you have to consider continued safe use, not just what's on your meter. And that decision probably isn't just electrical, it's informed by all the other adjacent information around us - is that cable buried in a stone wall or does it likely run up through that roof void full of tinder dry old crispy mice nests...... etc.

It's a responsible thing to do, which is why all these fly by inspection companies boil my pee so much.
 
not come across any spurious readings so far, but I bet the 80/90’s t&e will break down before any bulletproof MICC….
A bad pot would have failed well before now.

The cost of replacing fuse boards when some are built into bigger panels is going to be cost prohibitive, but there are some rcd sockets been fitted in rooms that were used for catering.

Other boards have been changed in the past where the old fuse board has been used as a joint box and a newer CU fitted.

Can’t wait to open than literal can of worms.
 
Unless you had a duff brand/batch of T&E its usual downfall are mice, UV exposure, or mechanical abuse (trapped, nail, etc).

I too would be very weary of IR readings below 10M unless I could identify why!
 
pc1966 said:
Unless you had a duff brand/batch of T&E its usual downfall are mice, UV exposure, or mechanical abuse (trapped, nail, etc).

I too would be very weary of IR readings below 10M unless I could identify why!
Click to expand...
There could be mice… possibly.

It’s a shame when an otherwise great installation with neatly clipped MICC, surface conduit etc gets ruined by a bit of sticky backed mini trunking down the side of a lovely period architrave.
 
Getting well into the workshop today… just the general power and I’ve got issues.

So it’s the white CU I’m testing in the middle.
Top left MEM SW/fuse feeds the cafe, top right feeds the public toilets and in turn, the two holiday cottages.
Bottom left is main sw/fuse “M” turns off everything. And bottom right is busbar chamber that everything feeds off.

Haven’t checked fuse sizes in “M” yet. Cannot isolate white CU without turning off cafe and cottages. Whatever size is in “M” is the OCPD for this white CU. I’ll find out when I can turn off the cottages… there’s guests in just now.

But… from the CU. There’s an rfc with 3 doubles. From this, an unfused spur goes into the shop next door… for another 8 points!
I’ll either suggest fusing down here, or pulling out the spur, extending the cable back to CU and making the shop its own radial circuit.

Workshop and shop also share the lighting circuit. Could do with separating that as well.

Only 4 circuits out of a 5+5 dual rcd board used, so plenty spares.

The 2 RCDs are tripping out at 46 and 62 ms. At x1 I



65CCBA28-ECB6-4461-93F1-55FC544C589E.jpeg
 
Posted in anticipation

2vf953.png
 
Eddy current: a localized electric current induced in a conductor by a varying magnetic field.

Eddie the Head: or just “Eddie”. Long serving mascot of band Iron Maiden. First appearing in 1980.



Eddy currants can be produced by passing live conductors through separate holes in a metal sheet. (Ferro magnetic) such as entering an enclosure.



DA308820-17B0-4F94-BF00-623D44312C7F.jpeg

This effect is negated if the conductors all pass through one bigger hole.
 
littlespark said:
Eddy current: a localized electric current induced in a conductor by a varying magnetic field.

Eddie the Head: or just “Eddie”. Long serving mascot of band Iron Maiden. First appearing in 1980.



Eddy currants can be produced by passing live conductors through separate holes in a metal sheet. (Ferro magnetic) such as entering an enclosure.



View attachment 106965

This effect is negated if the conductors all pass through one bigger hole.
Click to expand...

And eddy currants? :)
 
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