Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[Adam W]

Any of you guys with your own businesses prepared to pay minimum wage for a labourer/apprentice, so someone other than a 16 year old living with mum and dad can afford to do one?

I'm guessing not...

Apprenticeship is NOT an option for an adult, so there HAVE to be other methods of entry. Exactly as I was saying earlier, there HAD to be another method to becoming a pilot other than being in the RAF. Schemes were introduced and the standard of commercial flying has never been higher....

Yes, the idea is you work as a labourer/mate for a few years while you complete your technical certificate. This is where you get your practical experience, with someone there to supervise you.
Doing 5 weeks in a classroom then going out and pretending to be qualified and experienced when you're not isn't a substitute, mortgage or no mortgage.

 

[alarm man]

both have their heads in the clouds

 

[ipf]

So you would think that these airlines would actually turn round and say the standard of pilot training has dropped over the years if it actually had?? I don't think so myself, they would cutting their own throats!!

They don't cover things up do they? lol.

 

[Andy 7671]

Yes, the idea is you work as a labourer/mate for a few years while you complete your technical certificate. This is where you get your practical experience, with someone there to supervise you.
Doing 5 weeks in a classroom then going out and pretending to be qualified and experienced when you're not isn't a substitute, mortgage or no mortgage.

You said, in a more positive and polite way what I have been thinking/feeling.

I dont really understand someone paying out 5k without cross referencing with their local college first.

 

[Engineer54]

They don't cover things up do they? lol.

Who knows, ..lol!! I don't believe for a second they would Dis their own pilots training though, even if they knew it wasn't the best!! ....Funny though, when a plane goes down, it's 9/10 put down to pilot error, isn't it!!...lol!!!

 

[DNS1]

So you would think that these airlines would actually turn round and say the standard of pilot training has dropped over the years if it actually had?? I don't think so myself, they would cutting their own throats!!

No, they'd be unlikely to say that publicly!

On the other hand, I'm on the inside of the airline industry, so I know what really goes on.

You said, in a more positive and polite way what I have been thinking/feeling.

I dont really understand someone paying out 5k without cross referencing with their local college first.

You're completely right... spending that sort of money is stupid.... Personally I did my research and found somewhere who will do the training for a realistic price.

I've yet to have an answer to my question though... who on here is prepared to pay minimum wage to a labourer/mate?

 

[alarm man]

You said, in a more positive and polite way what I have been thinking/feeling.

I dont really understand someone paying out 5k without cross referencing with their local college first.

what puzzels me is those who want to come into the game as they see the big money on offer can pull out 5-10k for a quick course,if you have that sort of money lying around you must be doing ok,so why come into an industry which is cutting wages and agency's offering as little as £7ph for fully qualified sparks..

 

[Amp David]

Making off Pryo!!

I aint no old skool time served spark or gone down a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship, but I can manage to do Pyro, no probs. Might take a little longer than anyone doing it day in day out.

 

[Andy 7671]

I've yet to have an answer to my question though... who on here is prepared to pay minimum wage to a labourer/mate?

If you are asking where can I gain experiance...? Try jobcentre and zooming out 50, 100 miles till you get one, or sign up with jobsite, trovit jobis job. Be prepared to get pumped loads but LEARN from it.

Why have I got a feeling Ive gotten the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Amp David]

What's the difference between doing one night a week at college and doing it all crammed into one block?!

I thought the argument was about practical experience...

Difference is that most short courses ran by training companies don't actually teach you. They give you the instructions on what to do, then assess it and post their results of to city and guilds. Going to a one night a week night school for 2 or 3 years, you actually get taught about the job

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Difference is that most short courses ran by training companies don't actually teach you. They give you the instructions on what to do, then assess it and post their results of to city and guilds. Going to a one night a week night school for 2 or 3 years, you actually get taught about the job

quantity rather than quality.....get em in....get em processed......get em out.....right next batch!!

 

[ipf]

Difference is that most short courses ran by training companies don't actually teach you. They give you the instructions on what to do, then assess it and post their results of to city and guilds. Going to a one night a week night school for 2 or 3 years, you actually get taught about the job

Doing the job during the day helps a bit, too.

 

[Andy 7671]

quantity rather than quality.....get em in....get em processed......get em out.....right next batch!!

I like the way this thread is going, didnt feel great bashing someone trying to pull themselves up by their bootlaces, but the "Training providers"...right at the core

 

[Adam W]

I've yet to have an answer to my question though... who on here is prepared to pay minimum wage to a labourer/mate?

The idea is you work as a labourer/mate for a few years while you complete your technical certificate.
I don't know what it's like now but a few years ago companies were paying £7 - £10 an hour for labourers/mates, which is how I gained experience. There aren't so many jobs around now, so places are harder to find, which raises the question as to why someone would want to try to shoehorn themselves into the industry when they have a mortgage and bills to pay.

 

[smiley1609]

You mean you haven't been reading the questions that are constantly being asked on the forum?? The questions that in all honesty you would expect from a 1st year trainee. That should be telling you, that in the most part, they are not suitably equipped to do their job...

Some of the questions posted on this forum are ridiculously stupid questions...that is evident.

However, on a forum such as this...you are only ever going to get to see the questions from guys that need the help and advice...that is the whole point of a Q&A forum !

and you are not getting any idea of how many don't need advice, and have a good and sufficient knowledge of the subject area...

I am sure there are also many proficient DIs that do not ask such ridiculous and basic questions... and if you knew exactly how many DIs are out there working already and that do not ask questions ...then you could make a better informed judgement.

i.e. there are 5000 DIs working in the UK...and we have received 250 stupid questions...therefore there are 95% that haven't asked a silly question !


Consider this scenario of a car mechanic working for Renault for example...this mechanic only sees the broken down and problematic Renaults...the common faults...the 30 gearbox problems a quarter year...the broken cambelts...the braking problems...

...And when asked by his friend whether Renaults are any good...he is somewhat biased against Renault cars...purely for this reason of only ever seeing the bad examples at work...and not the millions of cars that have been driving the roads problem free for years ! No-one brings a healthy car into a workshop for repair !
(ok so Renault might not be the best example Lol )


My whole point above being, that you seem to have a somewhat biased opinion based on a small 'sample of posts' that have asked some ridiculous questions in the past...

How can you tell these guys are not DIYers...or 1st year full time 2330 students...or likewise ?? Do they have DI or Electrical Trainee written on their signature ??


Personally, I am currently retraining from an electronics background...and have spent 15 yrs working in mobile phones design...and possibly in the past I may have had a hand in the chipset design of your own mobile phones ... that being said I would not expect you to be able to retrain and design a mobile phone within a couple of months of training ! but I could teach some of the fundamentals to someone with good general engineering knowledge...

 

[UNG]

Quote
Making off Pryo!!


Stand by a bloody great dist board,in a windy corridor making sub main pyro ends off when its below freezing and your feet have taken root to the concrete floor and you have forgotten your hands used to have fingers on the ends of them, and you may wish that it "was" out of date

Not a chance I love working with Pyro

There is a very big difference between domestic work and commercial/industrial as we all know.

Yes, electricity is always dangerous, regardless of where the installation is, but simple domestic installations need a lot less knowledge than industrial. Less knowledge, less to learn, shorter course...

In all my years in the industry the C&G have never split the 236, 2360 or 2330 cert down with domestic, commercial and industrial modules it's always been all or nothing and should still be

Apprenticeship is NOT an option for an adult, so there HAVE to be other methods of entry. Exactly as I was saying earlier, there HAD to be another method to becoming a pilot other than being in the RAF. Schemes were introduced and the standard of commercial flying has never been higher....

Can't find any fly an A380 in 5 weeks courses on the web. Is it the pilots who have raised the level or all the electronic gizmos that take over once it is in the air

 

[Engineer54]

Some of the questions posted on this forum are ridiculously stupid questions...that is evident.

However, on a forum such as this...you are only ever going to get to see the questions from guys that need the help and advice...that is the whole point of a Q&A forum !

and you are not getting any idea of how many don't need advice, and have a good and sufficient knowledge of the subject area...

I am sure there are also many proficient DIs that do not ask such ridiculous and basic questions... and if you knew exactly how many DIs are out there working already and that do not ask questions ...then you could make a better informed judgement.

i.e. there are 5000 DIs working in the UK...and we have received 250 stupid questions...therefore there are 95% that haven't asked a silly question !


Consider this scenario of a car mechanic working for Renault for example...this mechanic only sees the broken down and problematic Renaults...the common faults...the 30 gearbox problems a quarter year...the broken cambelts...the braking problems...

...And when asked by his friend whether Renaults are any good...he is somewhat biased against Renault cars...purely for this reason of only ever seeing the bad examples at work...and not the millions of cars that have been driving the roads problem free for years ! No-one brings a healthy car into a workshop for repair !
(ok so Renault might not be the best example Lol )


My whole point above being, that you seem to have a somewhat biased opinion based on a small 'sample of posts' that have asked some ridiculous questions in the past...

How can you tell these guys are not DIYers...or 1st year full time 2330 students...or likewise ?? Do they have DI or Electrical Trainee written on their signature ??


Personally, I am currently retraining from an electronics background...and have spent 15 yrs working in mobile phones design...and possibly in the past I may have had a hand in the chipset design of your own mobile phones ... that being said I would not expect you to be able to retrain and design a mobile phone within a couple of months of training ! but I could teach some of the fundamentals to someone with good general engineering knowledge...

Seems that you are assuming as much as me then, so how do you know that 95% of these Electrical Trainee aren't practicing there limited skills using the general public as there experience curve with no supervision whatsoever and leaving these jobs in less than a safe state??

What i can and will say with a good deal of confidence, is that an ex office worker that was sat behind his desk 5 to 7 weeks ago, is nowhere near competent to be entering peoples homes and carrying out electrical work!! There is also no-way they should be passing any assessment by these scheme providers as being competent, an encouraging the deskilling of electricians nonsense!! This is not the only forum where you constantly see these guy's asking basic and as you call it silly questions!!!

How can we tell they are DI's or Electrical Trainee's because they TELL us they are, we don't have to guess. There are some DIYer's that are probably more capable than some of these quick fix DI's. It seems to be getting so bad now, that we are only training to DI level these days. It'll not be too long, before we are importing qualified electricians, ...we'll be like the Middle East of Europe!!


Biased, ....You bet i'm biased, as all i can see, is your 5000 Electrical Trainee/DI's being ill trained and ill experienced and therefore not competent to be working in peoples homes without supervision. Most of whom consider themselves as qualified electricians!! I'm biased because they are part of the present scheme of things that is ruining the status of a once proud industry that i've been in, and a part of, all my working life.

 

[smiley1609]

No problem guys...I do honestly see both sides of the discussion. I don't wish to upset anyone on here...and can fully appreciate the large amount of guys that are retraining from completely different industries...and to what they ultimately think is to a fully trained spark.

I think that my original point of my post... is being that there may be (albeit a small percentage of) engineers retraining that are capable of the work to a good level of workmanship and able to carry out the install work / CU testing. I am a very proud engineer in what I have achieved since I began engineering training in a BTEC ONC during early 90s...and i guess that perhaps I may be one of the few percent that may not be classed under the umbrella of Electrical Trainee...

Sorry if I offended anyone in my previous post !

 

[nickblake]

Just to clarify ,as from the 1st of April 2013 you will have to be NVC level 3 to become part of a regestered scheme , it was suspended to come into line with a survay of Part P which will be presented at the same time

 

[highspark]

Just to clarify ,as from the 1st of April 2013 you will have to be NVC level 3 to become part of a regestered scheme , it was suspended to come into line with a survay of Part P which will be presented at the same time

It won't happen don't hold your breath! You will still have grandfather rights anyway! This course can be sat online without any site visits. i'm currently in the middle of it with Delta. If this comes in the training providers will just make this an easy qual too!