Use of tie wraps and bunching conductors in DB's

[shanky887614]

make it neat by all means but dont tywrap them together, use panel trunking if you really want to or reuseable.

all that will happen is they will all be chopped off at next test or alteration

 

[HandySparks]

The regs don't forbid cable tying, but do you really want to do the cable calcs to show that the current carrying capacity of every cable in the bunch is still OK after they've been tied together?

 

[PEG]

I think the fact that factors for "bunched" cables,are included in the regs,is not in dispute. What WILL be disputed,is the interpretation of "bunching".

I have had this minor circular argument in the past,and the spark i was talking to,could not refute the fact that a zip-tie every 400mm OC,was not imparting any more onerous bunching,than the same conductors all sat in tight notches,in joists @ 400mm centers.

It will be the definition of bunching,that we all have differing opinions on.

 

[CT13]

Indeed, I failed to see how the use of cable ties could be forbidden per se, especially if tied loosely and used with common sense just to keep things in order. It's clear that using them to create large bunches of tightly bound single core cables could hamper heat dissipation and would be unwise.

 

[Darkwood]

Got to say my initial post was not in any way an attack on the OP or accusational - it was a few questions to get clarity for my either next helpful response or advice on what the OP should have as basic material for research. It may have been slightly blunt but given how the initial post read I had to ask if a practicing Electrician was unaware of of the last several years of amendments....

His answer gave a little insite but still think that using OSG's as your source of info to amendments as a risky game.. we don't usualy bunch and tiewrap cables in domestic boards so would give a suggestion to commercial or industrial ...without good knowledge of up to date regulations in these areas I would suggest the OP would not be competent but may get away with domestic as regulations have changed little since the red book in that area.

As I said, it was a questioning post and not an accusation on the OP - it seems the thread has evolved with a negative tone though...

 

[davesparks]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

I've got an orange one and a red hardback one if that helps?

 

[Darkwood]

I think the fact that factors for "bunched" cables,are included in the regs,is not in dispute. What WILL be disputed,is the interpretation of "bunching".

I have had this minor circular argument in the past,and the spark i was talking to,could not refute the fact that a zip-tie every 400mm OC,was not imparting any more onerous bunching,than the same conductors all sat in tight notches,in joists @ 400mm centers.

It will be the definition of bunching,that we all have differing opinions on.

This would be down to the situation, I have come across many a time where tiewrapped bunches are generating heat that impairs cable CCC .... luckily the nature of most loads means it never creates an issue but thats not an excuse to look over the reg's ..domestic and small commercial don't really see any issue but on larger installs this can be a very serious issue .. the installer needs to weigh up diversity and the possible effect.. we don't have grouping factor just for fun - again domestic n joists is childs play and not a good analogy.

 

[uksparks]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

 

[GMES]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

well then go and stand in the corner and face the wall for 20 minutes:yes:
I have read every reply and for me it is simply a debate by several members, the book side of the thread as been dealt with so just keep an healthy debate going.

 

[PEG]

This would be down to the situation, I have come across many a time where tiewrapped bunches are generating heat that impairs cable CCC .... luckily the nature of most loads means it never creates an issue but thats not an excuse to look over the reg's ..domestic and small commercial don't really see any issue but on larger installs this can be a very serious issue .. the installer needs to weigh up diversity and the possible effect.. we don't have grouping factor just for fun - again domestic n joists is childs play and not a good analogy.

Morning fella,i did not say bunching could not generate problems,i never mentioned overlooking any regulations,or hinted at grouping factors being fun...

...and,talking as i was,regarding a domestic setting,i thought my analogy drawing similarities between groups of conductors being tightly constrained every 400mm by either a tie,or a notch,was a fair conclusion.

Having said that,to continue the debate,as permitted...i do concur with the bulk of your assertions :yes:

May i ask your honor for a short recess,whilst i consult my client...:uhoh2:

 

[telectrix]

Morning fella,i did not say bunching could not generate problems,i never mentioned overlooking any regulations,or hinted at grouping factors being fun...

...and,talking as i was,regarding a domestic setting,i thought my analogy drawing similarities between groups of conductors being tightly constrained every 400mm by either a tie,or a notch,was a fair conclusion.

Having said that,to continue the debate,as permitted...i do concur with the bulk of your assertions :yes:

May i ask your honor for a short recess,whilst i consult my 15th Edition.

corrected that for you

 

[Guest77]

It is like walking on broken glass here now, appalling, give me watching paint dry anytime over this egg shell tip toeing.

 

[Guest77]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

I feel you have done nothing wrong in this thread, so grow a pair and get your chin up.

 

[Guest77]

The OP asked a question and got several answers, in the real world when on site he/she will get a bit of stick, now that is banter, nearly all people who work on site get stick, they usually laugh it off, it makes them the men and women they are, it makes them tradespersons, it is what we do, it is life, they ask questions here and usually get answers, one or two may contain banter, get over it foxx, now UK sparks asked a question about the right coloured Regs book, the fact is it was irrelvent to the question but I and others knew what he meant and why he asked it, calm down there, report the post to a mod if it has upset you that much, UK sparks may get a ban, you and the other sensitive folk here can then talk about knitting on your own.

 

[davesparks]

I see nothing wrong with working to the red book!

 

[CT13]

Easy folks don't get bent out of shape over this. My shoulders are broad enough to take a little bit of over zealous scrutiny on an Internet discussion forum. As MDJ says and I think we all know, on site you have to give and take a bit and that's about it . (Even if we're not actually on site here I'll still accept that analogy)

Would it be a slightly different scenario to question someone's work ethic and competency face to face in the real word ? Maybe. Thankfully it's not really happened to me yet.

As for dredging up a comment I made here in 2009 and suggesting that I have something to hide... Hmm... He probably wasn't on a scheme....The LABC thing ... I chuckled that off in exactly the same way I do banta on site.

Thanks to the people who replied to the question in the true spirit that forum was probably originally intended for, to help share and inform !

 

[malcolmsanford]

CT13 (Are you a Kent man!!!!)

Bottom line there is nothing stopping you ty-rapping your cables together if you want to, and as long as you are happy that there is no degradation of the current carrying capacity you ty rap as your heart is content.

Ty rapping is a modern thing, I would have had my back side rimmed if I ty-ed cable together, but now a days circuits are tapped together in trunking runs which was in my time a no no.

It is just another modern trend, same as running CPCs in metal conduit and trunking, and if that is the way of things then go for it.

 

[uksparks]

I was not trying to cause an argument not cause offence, CT13 mentioned he couldn't find his answer in an old regs book and I just wanted a little clarity as to if he owned a current regs book be if green or yellow and if not, why he is working as an electrician working from an old book which is out if date and missing a lot of very important changes.

CT13, sorry if I got your back up, but I am sure you can understand why I asked, you don't need to justify why you do or don't have a full regs book that's current to me.

I and everyone else who cares would expect every electrician be t a Electrical Trainee or a time served spark to be working from the latest book and not an old one with incorrect information in it.

 

[CT13]

Ha no, not a Kent man !

To be honest I'm not a fan of using them and would agree with what people have said above where they may even be detrimental if misused.

I think it has been established now that there was not anything specifically included in any of the 17th edition amendments and just good sense that had been around for a lot longer !

In looking at attending 3rd amendment refresher so will report back if anything comes up there although I seriously doubt it.

I shall be having talks with my pesky workmate who started all this..

 

[Darkwood]

@CT13 - I initially pulled you up and asked about your regulations because of how you worded the opening post that suggested in its context that you were unaware or had access to ammendments for the last several years - you answered and I replied ...end of thread moves on.
-Glad to hear you have broad shoulders as this is exactly the question I would ask if you worked for me... any of my apprentices who were doing work to old regulations books without been aware of new amendments would be taken off site until I was confident they knew of any amendment that would influence their work, yes not everyone can afford the constant barage of new books but if they ask I was happy to lend my copy so they could makes notes and catch up.

@Silvafoxx - The OP supplied the info (more than he had to) that left the question to be asked, its not self righteous or been up our own arses to ask the question, if an Electrician suggested he was several years out of date which the OP implied then the question needs asking to clarify, it wasn't done accusationally or with a snide comment. If you took someone on at work and he implied he was not up to date then you would question him to satisfy and justify that you were going to take him on and pay him the going rate... Yes the forum has had a stigma attached to it and a lot of bullying and trolling comments were the norm' ... this has changed a lot over the last month and many regular and high profile names are banned for it, the thread has been perused by the mods and they have let it carry on (see GMES post) ... Hopefully abuse has stopped but its not going to stop a legitimate question being asked when it has relevence to the thread....I don't dish abuse out but I also don't tiptoe around people for fear they may not like what I ask or put. The OP has the option to report any post and this is how it works now - your post helps no-one and is IMHO the post that doesn't belong - if you have issue you have three choices
1 - ignore
2 - report the post yourself
3 - post a small comment to the OP that the report button exist although a PM would be more suitable than creating an abrasive attack on other members which is neither helpful or constructive ... take your own advice and use the report button if you do not like a post.

I have no issue with you Silvafoxx and nice to see you back but there has been a lot of changes and this also applies to the type of post you did too.

I think now this thread has done its course, the OP has the info he needed and with his agreement the thread needs closing as its just going to loop around on itself addressing the same issue over and over.