Discuss Ze readings >2000Mohms in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

Fluke MultiFunction Tester 1662

TNS Earthing system.

Switchboard - 415v - 3 Phase + Neutral + Earth.
MCB 1000A
3 individual Earths (185mm) connected to the Switchboards Earth Busbar via a main earth bar which is then connected to the sites Earthing Grid that is bonded with exothermic welding.

Performed Ze reading on main incoming supply to Switchboard with Earth disconnected, without any issues.

Ze - L1 - 0.13 PEFC - 1.9 kA
Ze - L2- 0.13 PEFC - 1.9 kA
Ze - L3 - 0.13 PEFC - 1.9 kA

The issue is only apparent on some of the outgoing supplies.

Lighting board A with earth disconnected on incoming supply - Ze readings -

Ze L1 - 0.27 PEFC - 891A
Ze L2 - >2000Mohm
Ze L3 - >2000Mohm

Lighting Board B with earth disconnected on incoming supply - Ze Readings -

Ze L1 - >2000Mohm
Ze L2 - >2000Mohm
Ze L3 - >2000Mohm

Lighting Board C with earth disconnected on incoming supply - Ze readings -

Ze L1 - 0.25 PEFC 960A
Ze L2 - >2000Mohm
Ze L3 - >2000Mohm

HVAC Switchboard with earth disconnected on incoming supply Ze Readings -

Ze L1 - 0.13 PEFC 1.9kA
Ze L2 - 0.13 PEFC 1.9kA
Ze L3 - 0.13 PEFC 1.9kA

For the life of me, I can't understand why I can get Ze readings on some outgoing supplies, and not the others.
And in some cases only getting a Ze reading on L1, but not on L2 + L3.

I've tried various other Multifunction Test equipment and issue remains.
I've had an outage on the board, inspected the incoming supply, internal busbars and torqued everything.
Performed a DUCTOR test on the board, without any issues.

Any help would be appreciated

Kind Regards
Ok, there is much to unwrap here – and I am struggling to do so!



Let’s try talking it through – why do we want the Zs - there are two reasons, and let’s apply them to a domestic situation then industrial, then generation.



Firstly

We need to find out the MINIMUM fault level so we can confirm the protection operates (this is the same at transmission, distribution and domestic levels – and everywhere in-between).

To do this we normally remove any paths which we cannot guarantee will always be there – such as in domestic where the Bonding connects the MET to the water pipes, which connects to the boiler, which is connected to the FCU and hence the board via the CPC of that circuit, or the supplementary/EP bonding in the bathroom connecting the radiator to the lighting circuit and the boiler, through the water to the MET etc etc.



The easiest way is to disconnect the CPC from the board for the circuit under test, and measure the R1 + R2, noting we must ensure in doing this that there is NO other connection to earth, then add it to the source impedance (usually measured as Re) to get Zs – providing this is low enough to operate the associated fuse, MCB, MCCB…. or whatever) we are golden.

In a domestic this is generally all we need to do.



The second reason.

…Is to determine the MAXIMUM fault level to ensure the equipment is able to interrupt the circuit.

In this case we actually need everything in place which may contribute to this level – usually this is just ensuring all parallel paths (such as the circuit CPC and bonding with all circuits connected etc), however when we deal with industrial and generation sites, this may not be sufficient.

We could just carry out R1+R2 tests (added to Re), but with everything remaining connected to ensure all paths are in place, or more simply Use a MFT to measure Zs directly again with all paths in place.

In domestic this isn’t usually necessary as firstly we have one source Re through one main fuse into a CU which is type tested to coordinate with the standard supply fuses at all likely fault levels, and secondly, we only need to measure at that one point (the CU).



In industrial however, this is often required as we cannot guarantee such coordination, so it does have to be measured, (and why industrial kit may be 3kA, 6kA, 10kA, 16kA…..), but also remote switchboards may actually have lower fault levels - for example the MCCBs in the main switchboards need to be 50kA capacity (including the feed to the remote switchboard), but the remote switchboard itself may only need 16kA MCBs, and another switchboard downstream only 10kA etc etc.

So, if we are looking for Zs and it’s for minimum fault level we ought to use Re + R1+R2, we shouldn’t really measure Zs directly.

But, if we are looking for Zs and it’s for maximum fault level we ought to measure Zs directly, and we shouldn’t really use Re + R1+R2.



One issue with industrial is that there is often a huge bank collectively of motors, both large and small, which when running actually act like generators when a fault is applied - usually this doesn’t impact the steady state fault level, but it does significantly impact the initial fault level.


This is why there is a difference between switchgear used in domestic and industrial – a 6kA domestic MCB would have to withstand something like 1.5 x its braking capacity (6kA = 9kA) over the first few milliseconds – which has generally fallen to 6kA by the time it actually opens. However, an industrial one due to the motor contribution may have to withstand 2.5 x its braking capacity over the first few milliseconds – which will not have actually fallen to its rated braking capacity by the time it actually opens - this is fine because the standards for industrial MCBs take this into account, and they are tested to confirm this.



This is actually worse on a generation site – you measure Re when it’s connected via a weak link to the national grid (and hence the generation), but when it’s running the local generation provides well more fault level than the grid would – the design must take this into account.



So all the drivel done with, in your case

  • What are you measuring the Zs for – why does the Engineer want this – it’s likely to be for minimum, but it matters as to how you configure for your tests.
  • You appear to be measuring Zs at a switchboard rather than Re – but with earths disconnected – if the earth is disconnected properly I would expect Zs = infinite, if it isn’t then the earth is not disconnected
  • If this is an active site remote activities can impact your readings (you disconnected the earth, but remotely someone placed a spanner or something between metal clad switchgear and the metallic framework of the building – actually linking your “disconnected” earth to earth – many many reasons)
  • When a MFT measures the Re (or Zs) directly, it does so by applying a number of direct short circuits – but of very brief durations, noting the spike in current and estimating the fault level - if this is done on a site with major contribution via motors or generators this could be totally un-representative of the steady state value – the reading could be wildly out (too high or too low) – A MFT effectively measures a very peak value, and back-estimates this to what normal steady state fault level would produce this sort of peak. If the X/R ratio of the location is significantly different than a “normal” X/R ratio such as directly on a transformer, or having local generation (true generators or motors) then the results can be spurious.
 
I can't see any reasonable explanation for Ze over 2000 ohms other than something is open.

Sure the X/R aspect close to a transformer, etc, might alter the MFT accuracy but that is going be be relatively small, say 0.15 ohm actually being 0.1 or 0.2, that sort of magnitude.
 
Just thought I might add some other boring information.

So if you short a generator directly, theoretically the current in each phase would be like this:



IEC_60909_Figure2.png

Thus, the peak current could be over 2.8 (2 x sqrt(2)) the steady state value, in practice slightly less, and the decay rate changes throughout the network as the X/R ratio changes.

So equipment near generation needs to break whilst the current is still falling from it's initial peak, towards the steady state. Remote kit (such as domestic) falls quickly, so the equipment only needs to interrupt close to steady state values as by the time it's opened, the initial peak has died away.

To see this in practice, here are some results from testing a 12kV 50kA circuit breaker (it was my design btw)



20230617_125741-01.jpeg

In this case, which is a through-fault (that is some other protection/breaker is expected to clear it) the fault current is 127kA peak, decaying to a steady state level of 53.3kA for a duration of 3.08 seconds. (The standard is 125kA/50kA/3.0secs) interesting to note by the way is that the high eddy currents caused arcing around the earthed enclosure (which is pretty normal btw).


20230617_130210-01.jpeg

In this case, the breaker closed onto a fault at 51ms, and opened 36ms later.

In this case the voltage was 15.2kV, the currents 127kA, 131kA, and 90kA, and the arc times (from opening) 2ms, 7ms, and 7ms per phase.

This was a design to retrofit old 12kV switchgear in both power stations and large industrial sites - this test was for industrial level equipment, but we also tested it for higher X/R associated with power stations.

I am just boring people now!
 
Thanks for your replies guys.

Did some more digging.

Looks like the downstream HVAC board is interfering with our readings, but still don't understand why.

High load - HVAC MCC in service = 198A at upstream MCC - No Ze being recorded on any of the outgoing supplies (3 lighting DB's). >2000Mohms across 3 phases.

Low Load - HVAC MCC isolated = 38A - at upstream MCC - Ze readings recorded on outgoing supplies / all acceptable ( 3 lighting DB's)

Is this pointing towards the MFT not being able to record External earth loop paths at high load currents?.

High resistance possibly? Will try Thermographic reading on the incoming supply to rule this option out.
 
Sorry, I've read all this but I still don't understand why your disconnecting the earth at each DB to carry out the test. What cable type of cable is supply them? And are you turning the DBs off before you carry the test out? Also are you reconnecting the earths before you move on to the next test?
 
Sorry, I've read all this but I still don't understand why your disconnecting the earth at each DB to carry out the test. What cable type of cable is supply them? And are you turning the DBs off before you carry the test out? Also are you reconnecting the earths before you move on to the next test?

Requirement for the Power station is that every distribution board must have a Ze reading captured - Zs readings captured on outgoing circuits.

Ze - The value of Ze is measured at the intake position on the supply side with the earthing conductor disconnected.

The main isolator / MCB is always turned off before disconnecting the supply earth, thus no outgoing circuits are energised from the DB.

Yes lol, if the earths weren't being reconnected after testing, I'm pretty sure we would all be down the road!
 
Requirement for the Power station is that every distribution board must have a Ze reading captured - Zs readings captured on outgoing circuits.

Ze - The value of Ze is measured at the intake position on the supply side with the earthing conductor disconnected.

The main isolator / MCB is always turned off before disconnecting the supply earth, thus no outgoing circuits are energised from the DB.

Yes lol, if the earths weren't being reconnected after testing, I'm pretty sure we would all be down the road!
Are all the DBs connected directly to the main panel or are they sub DBs fed via another DB?
 
Have you tested N to E to see if there's voltage with everything on. If it's to high the fluke testers will show the reading your getting. And the test your doing is for the Zdb not Ze. Ze is only done at the main incomer and it's the only test that needs the main earth disconnected. You've got 5 sub DBs so your going to have a lot of parallel paths.
 
Have you tested N to E to see if there's voltage with everything on. If it's to high the fluke testers will show the reading your getting. And the test your doing is for the Zdb not Ze. Ze is only done at the main incomer and it's the only test that needs the main earth disconnected. You've got 5 sub DBs so your going to have a lot of parallel paths.

So basically a Zdb is a Zs reading for an outgoing distribution board. Which clears up the misunderstanding with some of the previous comments.

Is there a reason / requirement why the engineer is telling us to disconnect main incoming supplie earthss for every Sub DB?
 

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