A new energy source-maybe--maybe-not

[justcurioustwo]

I am bringing this drawing back into the discussion just to ask one last question.
In the drawing there are twelve (12) buckets on the right side. Just for discussion each bucket has a lifting force of 100-foot pounds. 12 buckets times 100 = 1200-foot pounds of lifting force.
1200-foot pounds of lifting force can produce more energy at any one moment in time than 100-foot pounds;
Once all the buckets are full and this machine is running, the process continues to produce 1200-foot pounds of force if you continue to fill one (1) bucket at the bottom in sequence with the rest.
YES or NO?

 

[davesparks]

Here is another look at the system. The bubbles are more like hot air balloons but instead of heat, air is added. As the air bubble rises, it expands creating more lifting force. When all six (6) bubbles have air in them they combine this lifting force.

But the problem is that the energy used to move the air to the bottom of the system will be more than the energy output from the system.

The balloons will expand yes, but the amount of air in them will remain the same, it will just be less compressed. The lifting force won't change as it rises.

 

[justcurioustwo]

@justcurioustwo why don’t you build it.....film it......and prove all us doubters wrong?

This is a simply mechanical machine that utilized the rising force of balloons with air in them. You can also envision this as inverted umbrellas. What makes this “work” is the combining lifting force of multiple umbrellas with expanding air in them. The result is an increase in “force”; that I am now trying to convert into watts and the speed these rising balloons are traveling.
Maybe someone here with more technical knowledge can help me out in this. Once done we can the evaluate whether it is a zero-sum game or whatever.
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But the problem is that the energy used to move the air to the bottom of the system will be more than the energy output from the system.

The balloons will expand yes, but the amount of air in them will remain the same, it will just be less compressed. The lifting force won't change as it rises.

You state that the lifting force will not change as the balloons expand. This might be my Achilles heel. The lifting force is equal to the water being displaced. At 1 ATM the volume of air under this umbrella is 300 cubic feet. This same 300 cubic feet if air under an umbrella at a depth of 594 feet is under a pressure of 264.6 p.s.i.; has a volume of 16.66 cubic feet.
As the umbrella rises the air bubble expands pushing out more water.
If I understand your statement correctly, please tell me how a balloon displacing 16 cubic feet has an equal rising force of a balloon displacing 100 cubic feet?
I am sure I am wrong, and you are right but just saying so is not convincing enough for me.
Please elaborate on your point of view.
Thanks in advance.
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There is one more thing I need help on, and this is the place I can get it. I am trying to compute two values.
[1] The electrical output of this machine.
[2] The speed of the rising bubbles.

 

[static zap]

[1] The electrical output of this machine.
[2] The speed of the rising bubbles.

Just an observation on [2]
A trade off , how often a new bubble can be added , vs how much
water resistance -friction slows the system down ...
Let it run free ,it will go its fastest but make no energy.
(plus maybe a short stint of overspeed as its stored inertia comes out)
A slower speed , less water friction -- more energy recovered .
( less opportunity to gather energy as its running slower )
Remember boats ! (built like barges , travel slowly compared to cars)
Hold a cupped water wheel under water , and let some air bubbles in .
( a scale model -simplified will be easier to see its shortcomings )
..For super expanding bubbles .. cool butane gas !.. (sorry global warming)

 

[davesparks]

There is one more thing I need help on, and this is the place I can get it. I am trying to compute two values.
[1] The electrical output of this machine.
[2] The speed of the rising bubbles.

To work out the electrical output of the machine you will need to know how you are converting the output into electricity and the efficiency of that system.
I assume the output of your machine is mechanical via a rotating shaft? And also assume that this will couple to an alternator to produce electricity?
In which case the electrical output will be the mechanical output power of the machine minus the losses through the mechanical linkage and the alternator itself.

You also need to factor in to the overall efficiency how much energy is used in controlling the alternator and regulating its output.
For the electricity to be useful it must be regulated, otherwise you could output varying voltage and frequency which will damage any connected loads.

 

[justcurioustwo]

To work out the electrical output of the machine you will need to know how you are converting the output into electricity and the efficiency of that system.

The inverted umbrellas (balloons) are attached to a cable that turns a DC generator at the top or it could be an AC generator or both. To determine the efficiency of the system requires you to compare it to a system that has no deficiencies.

I assume the output of your machine is mechanical via a rotating shaft? And also assume that this will couple to an alternator to produce electricity?

Your assumption is correct

In which case the electrical output will be the mechanical output power of the machine minus the losses through the mechanical linkage and the alternator itself.

I totally agree

You also need to factor in to the overall efficiency how much energy is used in controlling the alternator and regulating its output.

I totally agree

For the electricity to be useful it must be regulated, otherwise you could output varying voltage and frequency which will damage any connected loads.

Again, I agree
The inverted umbrellas (balloons) are attached to a cable that turns a DC generator at the top or it could be an AC generator or both. To determine the efficiency of the system requires you to compare it to a system that has no deficiencies.

At this stage of the game I need to determine is this system is possible. If it is; then a three-dimensional computer model of the system needs to be written showing real time results with the ability to change variables in order to maximize output.

 

[static zap]

Not any nearer friction losses , but did look up dive tanks.
230bar x 12 litres = 1.2MJoules of stored energy.
Why they regularily inspect aluminium tanks (-400 withdrawn annually -USA--out of millions )
From distant memories of Air lifting bags used to lift sunken ship treasure. Just need electricity bill from a dive shop next !

 

[davesparks]

Again, I agree
The inverted umbrellas (balloons) are attached to a cable that turns a DC generator at the top or it could be an AC generator or both. To determine the efficiency of the system requires you to compare it to a system that has no deficiencies.

At this stage of the game I need to determine is this system is possible. If it is; then a three-dimensional computer model of the system needs to be written showing real time results with the ability to change variables in order to maximize output.

It could turn a dynamo to produce DC or an alternator to produce AC, or as you say it could be both (though this will, I think, decrease efficiency further). What do you intend to power from it? This will determine whether it is AC or DC.
Unless it is for a dedicated specific application then I'd assume you'll want to produce AC.

Is it possible to build this system? Yes, if you throw enough money at it you can build it.
Is it possible to build it and make money from it? highly unlikely in my opinion.

 

[justcurioustwo]

Is it possible to build this system? Yes, if you throw enough money at it you can build it.
Is it possible to build it and make money from it? highly unlikely in my opinion.

I have no interest in making money from this. I already have a great job that pays for all my needs.
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Why I am here--
Awhile back I started a number of forum topics that started with “End Of Oil; WHAT NEXT?”. I was trying to inform people that oil is finite, and we will run out.

It's time to look forward and find solutions before we are forced to. (link removed by admin)

Now that renewables are being utilized in many countries, I decided to come up with a renewable too which uses the force of gravity and pressure under water.

Of course, it will more than likely not work, but it’s fun trying.

 

[justcurioustwo]

The above diagram has changed, here is the revised version

 

[justcurioustwo]

There are several people who can see the writing on the wall. Fossil fuel as our major energy provider is ending. Your grandchildren will not be driving gasoline powered cars.
This insight created the green new deal, hybrid’s and the re-invention of the electric car. My efforts are along those same lines; trying to find the “what next”; a new era of renewables.
I am aware that the SeaEngine is a long shot but at least I’m trying.
You can’t fault me for that

 

[static zap]

...I am aware that the SeaEngine is a long shot but at least I’m trying.
You can’t fault me for that

Our future ,needs :-
Fresh innovation , plenty of money for Fusion and A nuclear industry less fixated/blinkered on ..weapons grade plutonium $£$£
We best stop eating horses !

 

[davesparks]

Fossil fuel as our major energy provider is ending. Your grandchildren will not be driving gasoline powered cars.

I won't have any grandchildren as I dont,and won't, have any children.

The human race is destroying the planet, whatever new energy sources we come up with will only lead to further destruction of the planet in one way or another.

The best thing we can do for the planet now is stop producing more humans.

 

[DPG]

I won't have any grandchildren as I dont,and won't, have any children.

The human race is destroying the planet, whatever new energy sources we come up with will only lead to further destruction of the planet in one way or another.

The best thing we can do for the planet now is stop producing more humans.

Still, it's nearly Christmas Dave so keep your spirits up

 

[justcurioustwo]

The point of this is twofold.

• First this may lead to a new energy source
• The calculations needed are for real engineers/electricians to solve

There are a great number of variables that need to be explored before coming up with the final ya/na conclusion
I was hoping that there would be a few here who were up to the challenge.
I tried this on another forum named “ENG-TIPS” but before I could get in a word edgewise, I was banned for trying.
The least you folks could do is ignore this forum. Let me come back from time to time a mumble a few words then I will go.
My doctor told me that discussions like this a heathy whereas stopping people on the street to se what they may think of this is a bad idea.
So I ask, let me mumble to myself here.
Thanks in Advance
Attached is the drawing

 

[justcurioustwo]

here is another look at the gizmo
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This is not a PMM. All I am doing is converting one form of energy into another. In this case it is mechanical energy into electrical energy.
SeaPower description
Attached is a diagram that details a new energy generating power source using the expanding rise of air underwater as a lifting force.
This is the same principal that keeps a boat afloat.
In the diagram, there is a linear row of balloons. The lower balloon or inverted umbrella; is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 18 ATM resulting in a volume of 16.66 cubic feet of air.
When the first balloon rises 99 feet (3 ATM) a second balloon attached to the first one is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 16.66 cubic feet of air.
In the diagram provided this process is repeated having five (5) balloons rising. The upper balloon at 3 ATM has a lifting force of 6.400 pounds
The next balloon at 6 ATM has a lifting force of 3,200 pounds
The next balloon at 9 ATM has a rising force of 2,133 pounds
The next balloon at 12 ATM has a lifting force of 1,600 pounds
The next balloon at 15 ATM has a lifting force of 1,080 pounds
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total pulling force is a continuous lifting force of 14,413 pounds
This mechanical process can be converted to electrical output.
If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go.

 

[DPG]

The 'continuous lifting force' is not free energy. I still don't see where the driving force is available without external influence. It still seems like the many examples of over-unity machines to me.

 

[Dan]

As above. It defies Newton's law.

 

[static zap]

Does at least make me think about any deep sea , bubbling gas (of any type) sources ,and a reward for concentrating and gathering them ! ..Hopefully not a consequence of fracking .. or failed Carbon storage !
( Storing high pressure CO2 , can later be processed into a usable fuel if energy is available to convert it )

 

[ElectroChem]

If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go.

I'm going to go with option B here.

The sheer number of PM/FE ideas that boil down to "Extract energy from working fluid as it moves from a HP to LP reservoir, use {some value less than 100%} of that energy to pump the fluid back to the HP side" suggests some intuitive disconnect with how people think of moving energy states. Some just can never wrap their head around losses and equivalences.

ed: spelling

 

[Megawatt]

I'm going to go with option B here.

The sheer number of PM/FE ideas that boil down to "Extract energy from working fluid as it moves from a HP to LP reservoir, use {some value less than 100%} of that energy to pump the fluid back to the HP side" suggests some intuitive disconnect with how people think of moving energy states. Some just can never wrap their head around losses and equivalences.

ed: spelling

Where’s @Lucien at when you need him

 

[justcurioustwo]

HOW IT WORKS
I would build the thing to prove it works but to do that it would have to be built full scale, in the ocean as advertised. You can’t make a scaled model, it wouldn’t work.
A three-dimensional computer model would work if it was programed to operate with the same parameters as the real thing including depth and sea pressure; ATM’s and it would have to operate in real time..
For every ATM in depth (33') an air bubble is compressed to half its size.
This also works in the reverse. An air bubble with a radius of 10 FT at 15 ATM's will expand to twice its size (r=20) at 14 ATM's.
Principles to run the machine
There are a few basic principles that you cannot deny.
[1] an enclosed container (X) of air submerged in water has a lifting force (Y) equal to the volume of the water displaced minus the weight of the container; [yes] [no]
[2] connection multiple containers one on top of the other creates a combined lifting force of (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)
Which is a greater lifting force than (Y); [yes] [no]
[3] the energy needed to fill one container is equal to the energy needed to sustain the combined lifting force of the 10 (ten) containers referenced above minus the energy needed to keep it running.
; [yes] [no]

 

[static zap]

The issue has to be ,the energy needed to compress air so it wishes to come out of the end of the pipe -Deep under sea.

 

[Dan]

Is the energy being used to fill the containers coming from the energy gained from the containers rising?

If so, those two are going to be equal and fall under Newton's third law.

If one of them requires more energy the other will.

 

[static zap]

These threads always make me think of doc from back to the future. I imagine his shed/lab from the first one.

I blame some of my "Tinkering" on Chutty bang bangs Caractacus Pots untidy lab .. (and my bad hoarding habits)
A piece of lead (pb) will always come in usefull !
..Most interesting bits getting banned-unhealthy..

 

[justcurioustwo]

Is the energy being used to fill the containers coming from the energy gained from the containers rising?

If so, those two are going to be equal and fall under Newton's third law.
If one of them requires more energy the other will.

For every ATM in depth (33') an air bubble is compressed to half its size. This also works in the reverse. An air bubble with a radius of 10 FT at 15 ATM's will expand to twice its size (r=20) at 14 ATM's. Principles to run the machine

There are a few basic principles that you cannot deny.
[1] an enclosed container (X) of air submerged in water has a lifting force (Y) equal to the volume of the water displaced minus the weight of the container;
[yes] [no]
[2] connection multiple containers one on top of the other creates a combined lifting force of (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y) Which is a greater lifting force than (Y);
[yes] [no]
[3] the energy needed to fill one container is equal to the energy needed to sustain the combined lifting force of the 10 (ten) containers referenced above minus the energy needed to keep it running. ;
[yes] [no]

 

[littlespark]

As one fictional Scotsman once said
“Ya cannae change the laws o’ physics!”

 

[static zap]

As one fictional Scotsman once said
“Ya cannae change the laws o’ physics!”

But quantum mechanics has made "observing" things pretty confusing !
( Sorry Sci-fi fans: there is no transparent aluminum -metal )

 

[justcurioustwo]

Someone please respond to post #51
Thanks in advance

 

[static zap]

Multiple containers will produce more lifting force , but also more drag ,that will also worsten the faster things operate.
(I disagree with scale mode -as using a chilled gas will get plenty of expansion ,as the free energy this system harvests is actually taking heat from the sea ,to let gas expand.
(expanding gas needs heat from somewhere to accomplish it's expansion ) -- So buckets / baloons need to be thermally conductive !

 

[justcurioustwo]

Multiple containers will produce more lifting force , but also more drag ,that will also worsten the faster things operate.
(I disagree with scale mode -as using a chilled gas will get plenty of expansion ,as the free energy this system harvests is actually taking heat from the sea ,to let gas expand.
(expanding gas needs heat from somewhere to accomplish it's expansion ) -- So buckets / baloons need to be thermally conductive !

The balloons expand as they rise as well