AM2 Lighting

[KAS1]

Yeah let me put that another way, must be normal for the likes of Marvo from SA ( a moderator) to take N to switches for no reason whatsoever lol

Trust me mate, I'm England like yourself, and the work I have seen in the last 12months on just One site makes SA seem almost at the top of the tree lol

 

[KAS1]

WELL EXPLAIN THAT to our young lads you are telling IT'S OK to do in the UK

Looping the supply through the switches is the norm is SA.

 

[Marvo]

I was waiting for you to explain it to them seeing you're the one who's dead set against it.

 

[KAS1]

That explains a lot .............. lol

Pretty much sums up your last few posts on the matter. The best reason you've managed to come up with is that people might switch the neutrals but I'm still at a loss to see how it would be more likely than with any other installation method.

You're right, I live in Africa where we don't have regs and I do need more experience with complicated electric systems like domestic lighting but I'm a qualified plasterer and a professional forum moderator so I've seen plenty of light switches and I'd like to think I can understand the merits and pitfalls of different wiring schemes if you could explain them in words of few syllables and avoiding technical terms.

So back to the question of why it should be outlawed......

 

[Spudnik]

There is more than one reason why it is a bad idea to connector joint neutrals in a switch box....

#1 There is a risk of a 'bad' connector joint. Examples are terminals becoming loose if connector has to be 'jiggled' in box to make switch plate fit correctly, conductor material becoming exposed because connector has to be 'bent over' to allow for switch housing to fit correctly etc. etc.
#2 Even an extra 3 conductors can cause a lot of trouble space wise, especially on a 3-Gang 2-Way switch, leading to possibilty of conductors being pushed hard against any 'sharp' part of switch box or fixing screws.
#3 Makes it more awkward to obtain true test results (Less of a risk, but still exists)

Basically, and apologies to anyone who prefers the 'neutral in a connector method' it is just bad practice to use this method.

As to having to over-sleeve etc, whether at light or switch ALL conductors should be correctly identified (you should use Brown/Brown T+E for strappers etc anyway......... Red/Red in your case)

1)I am failing to understand why it is bad practice... how do you install downlights/wall lights?
2)If there will be a few cables in the box, a deeper box can be fitted to make sure everything fits without "squashing".
3) It makes for easier testing.

And, normal T&E sleeved if needed has been used for many, many years. The only time i have come across red/brown feed and lives is in conduit wiring.

Yeah let me put that another way, must be normal for the likes of Marvo from SA ( a moderator) to take N to switches for no reason whatsoever lol

Regardless of Marvo being a moderator, his opinions/experiences still count.

WELL EXPLAIN THAT to our young lads you are telling IT'S OK to do in the UK

As Marvo has asked many times, can you explain why it isnt ok? Can you also explain how you would install downlights/wall lights?


As far as i can see, there is absolutely no valid reason why the neutral cannot be dropped into the switch. Easier testing, easier to install additional lighting, easier to connect up the lighting.

 

[Knobhead]

There is more than one reason why it is a bad idea to connector joint neutrals in a switch box....

#1 There is a risk of a 'bad' connector joint. Examples are terminals becoming loose if connector has to be 'jiggled' in box to make switch plate fit correctly, conductor material becoming exposed because connector has to be 'bent over' to allow for switch housing to fit correctly etc. etc.
There is an equal risk in a three plate system.

#2 Even an extra 3 conductors can cause a lot of trouble space wise, especially on a 3-Gang 2-Way switch, leading to possibilty of conductors being pushed hard against any 'sharp' part of switch box or fixing screws.
If you look at my drawing there are three conductors between each switch point. How many in a conventional system. There is a way to get around that and use T&E but I’m sick and tired of shared neutral threads.

#3 Makes it more awkward to obtain true test results (Less of a risk, but still exists)
So you don’t know what you’re doing! I’ll bet you only run radials for sockets!


Basically, and apologies to anyone who prefers the 'neutral in a connector method' it is just bad practice to use this method.
Where does it state this is BAD practice?


As to having to over-sleeve etc, whether at light or switch ALL conductors should be correctly identified (you should use Brown/Brown T+E for strappers etc anyway......... Red/Red in your case)

BTW
I don’t advocate neutrals at switches unless there is a reason.
I answered the OP question with a drawing in “good faith!”

 

[Silly Sausage]

Ns in switches has had a few threads over the last year or so.
At first, I was a bit skeptical, but after reading those discussions, it makes perfect sense to me (depending on the situation).



Still waiting for the reasonS why it's 'Bad Practice'!

 

[Marvo]

I know the norm in the UK is the supply is looped through each light fitting but I'm not sure why it's such an emotive issue. We generally loop the supply through the switches but I'd use either system depending on mainly which was easier to install in that particular building. Apart from that the two systems seem swings and roundabouts regarding all the other pro's and con's.

 

[KAS1]

Give me strength..................................

 

[Wolfie708]

1)I am failing to understand why it is bad practice... how do you install downlights/wall lights?
2)If there will be a few cables in the box, a deeper box can be fitted to make sure everything fits without "squashing".
3) It makes for easier testing.

And, normal T&E sleeved if needed has been used for many, many years. The only time i have come across red/brown feed and lives is in conduit wiring.

Can you explain why it isnt? Can you also explain how you would install downlights/wall lights?


As far as i can see, there is absolutely no valid reason why the neutral cannot be dropped into the switch. Easier testing, easier to install additional lighting, easier to connect up the lighting.

#1 Personally I do not use T+E for wiring a lighting circuit. I use Brown/CPC and double covered Blue, but regardless of what I use, a wall light can easily accomodate either, and a down-light should always have a seperate joint box used anyway (the little plastic clip boxes they typically arrive with are useless and I just bin them lol)

#2 On a new build I agree with you, but a lot of re-wires have single brick walls that are not very helpful when trying to chop in a 35mm or deeper box

#3 Maybe a personal choice, but experience has taught me which is better for me (I am 44 btw so have just a teensy weensy bit of experience lol)

It has also been known for over-sleeving to fall off and not be put back on for years. Just because something has been done and is allowed does not mean it is the 'right' way to do it.

On the subject of making it easier to add lights, you then have to take into account that you will be added a 4th (maybe more?) neutral to a connector that is actually designed to accept one incoming and one outgoing conductor (unless you are talking about a connector that utilises a 'clamp' and not typical screw arrangement?)

There are many reasons, but the simplest one of all is that it IS bad practice as you are creating the risk of a bad joint where there is no need for one at all.