Installing touch light switches on 3-way / 4-way circuit

[Max Steel]

Hello,

I'm replacing standard light switches in my hall and landing with touch switches (not smart, just touch on/off) like these from Amazon; Touch Electrical Light Wall Switch - LIVOLO 2023 New Version 1 Gang 3 Way Modern Tempered Glass Panel Single Pole Electrical Lamp Switch with Led Indicator No Neutral.

My hall is wired with a 3-way switch circuit, controlling a single light fitting from 3 locations, and the landing circuit is 4-way, with a pair of lights switched from any of 4 locations. I have verified with the electrician the circuit wiring is standard UK (2004 build) as shown in the attachment (4-way example). The back of the proposed touch switches are as in the other attachment, Livolo 3-way.

For normal light switches the replacement is simple using a couple of 2-way switches and then a number of intermediates as required per circuit, but there does not seem to be an equivalent setup in the touch switch world and the electrician has never done this before. I found the LIVOLO's advertised on Amazon as 3-way but will these meet my requirements and would I simply purchase 4 of them for the 4-way circuit for my electrician to fit?

If not, what will work to replace the switches for a 3-way and 4-way circuit (one of the switches is a 2-gang common to both circuits) with any kind of touch switches?

 

[littlespark]

it looks as though you can just add more switches in parallel like the second diagram there. Loop the brown between all switches, and loop the pale blue the same. (should really be sleeved in brown to distinguish it apart from the darker blue neutral. Took me a few minites to see the light bulb)

The actual layout of your wiring needs examined as well... I would expect the live feed, with a neutral, plus the switched live and neutral going up to the light, and a 3 core + earth all at one switch.... with the 3 core running to all the switches in turn. I doubt its exactly like your blue diagram there.

It needs planned carefully whether this can be done or not... but i think you'll have a redundant core in the 3 core cable.

 

[Avo Mk8]

EDIT; Just crossed with Littlespark - I'm not sure that other switches in parallel will do it - you'd have to go back and turn one off surely?

I believe LIVOLO (sorry - Amazon) might be using '3-way' in the American sense, meaning the switch is 3 way because it has 3 terminals on it.
So 3-way American is 2-way UK.
An intermediate switch is 4-way in American, meaning 4 terminals. It does not correlate with 4 light switches.
At least that is my understanding of the difference in terminology, which I think is adding to the confusion here.

I am unaware of any 'touch switches' that provide an intermediate switch function. EDIT - see below

The schematic of LIVOLO 3-way you show is just another way of doing UK 2-way, and it shows just two switches.
That circuit cannot be extended to further switches (unless I'm missing something !)

Smart switches do this trick another way, with just one switch actually switching the light, and the others telling that switch what to do. If your touch switches cannot communicate with each other in this way, I fear they are not suitable for what you wish to do.

UPDATE; I see LIVOLO do a single gang switch that does do 4-way. This seems to be what you need (subject to the wiring providing what is needed!)

Livolo | Module | Single | 4 Way

Livolo | Module | Single | 4 WayOwer Livolo Touch Switches a feature with a capacitive touch control in a beautiful glass and nice sleek design. A slight touch is sufficient to operate the Touch switch.

www.livolo.eu

But the above is in European terminology, at the bottom it says this is a 3-way module - I think I've even confused myself with the terminology now

 

[littlespark]

I believe the way these work is simply power to each one, and touching any of them turns the light on or off. There is no pass wires or strappers or whatever you want to call them.
But those cores will need used for something else, namely power to each switch.

Just a live, a neutral maybe, a signal wire between each switch and the live out.

 

[Avo Mk8]

I believe the way these work is simply power to each one, and touching any of them turns the light on or off. There is no pass wires or strappers or whatever you want to call them.
But those cores will need used for something else, namely power to each switch.

Just a live, a neutral maybe, a signal wire between each switch and the live out.

OK, so the switch on the right is turning the load on and off, effectively in response to an 'instruction' on the blue wire at the bottom, presumably from any number of other switches?

 

[Max Steel]

OK, so the switch on the right is turning the load on and off, effectively in response to an 'instruction' on the blue wire at the bottom, presumably from any number of other switches?

I think this is correct, on their website they have a 4-way 2 gang (remote), in the text for this is states that the lights must always be connected to L1 and L2 position and then 1,2, or 3 2-way switches can be connected as in the attachment. It means I'll have cores not needed but already have traced each core so know how the circuits are built. The only issue I have is that my 4-way and 3-way have a common 2-gang switch which I believe the common line from each gang (yellow core) is the switched live to each light. Will need to draw this out I think as electrician is not happy to progress.

 

[Max Steel]

EDIT; Just crossed with Littlespark - I'm not sure that other switches in parallel will do it - you'd have to go back and turn one off surely?

I believe LIVOLO (sorry - Amazon) might be using '3-way' in the American sense, meaning the switch is 3 way because it has 3 terminals on it.
So 3-way American is 2-way UK.
An intermediate switch is 4-way in American, meaning 4 terminals. It does not correlate with 4 light switches.
At least that is my understanding of the difference in terminology, which I think is adding to the confusion here.

I am unaware of any 'touch switches' that provide an intermediate switch function. EDIT - see below

The schematic of LIVOLO 3-way you show is just another way of doing UK 2-way, and it shows just two switches.
That circuit cannot be extended to further switches (unless I'm missing something !)

Smart switches do this trick another way, with just one switch actually switching the light, and the others telling that switch what to do. If your touch switches cannot communicate with each other in this way, I fear they are not suitable for what you wish to do.

UPDATE; I see LIVOLO do a single gang switch that does do 4-way. This seems to be what you need (subject to the wiring providing what is needed!)

Livolo | Module | Single | 4 Way

Livolo | Module | Single | 4 WayOwer Livolo Touch Switches a feature with a capacitive touch control in a beautiful glass and nice sleek design. A slight touch is sufficient to operate the Touch switch.

www.livolo.eu

But the above is in European terminology, at the bottom it says this is a 3-way module - I think I've even confused myself with the terminology now

Thanks for the advice, the terminology is confusing, I've seen some companies (Chinese) advertising 2-gang and 3-gang as 2-way and 3-way.
It appears the Livolo single or double 4-way Remote switch is what I need. From their site "You can easily connect the Livolo remote 4 Way switches to 1, 2 or 3 normal touch 2 Way switches. You only need to have 1 remote 4 Way switch in a 4 Way circuit."
My only challenge now is I have a 3-way and a 4-way tied together by a common 2-gang, 2-way (inters are all elsewhere). But on the surface it now seems possible to do if I can redraw the wiring and repurpose some of the cores. Electrician won't touch it until that is done and I present him with a colour coded diagram, as he has no experience with these touch switches. I'm surprised as they have been around for a while and seem popular enough and I have had them fitted in two houses but to replace 1-way switches only.
Also I have no preference for Livolo, it was the first brand I found advertising 3 and 4 way potential. I just want an LED illuminated modern switch system. Elsewhere we have installed smart switches, but to be honest its too much faff to use the smart functions, by the time you get your phone out, load the app and turn it on you could have walked around the house and done it all by hand, and using Alexa is not much better as half the time you have to repeat yourself. Its so much easier when in the middle of the night and the cat decides he's going out, either through your door or better still through the hole he is digging in your carpet, to just flick the light on at the top of the stairs as you pass the nearest "glowing" switch before hoying him outside.

 

[Avo Mk8]

I think this is correct, on their website they have a 4-way 2 gang (remote), in the text for this is states that the lights must always be connected to L1 and L2 position and then 1,2, or 3 2-way switches can be connected as in the attachment. It means I'll have cores not needed but already have traced each core so know how the circuits are built. The only issue I have is that my 4-way and 3-way have a common 2-gang switch which I believe the common line from each gang (yellow core) is the switched live to each light. Will need to draw this out I think as electrician is not happy to progress.

Yes I understand the setup now. Sorry about my confusing first post
It might be worth buying the Livolo switches you identified and lash at least 3 of them up "on the bench" to a light, just to prove the scheme works!
I sympathise with trying to re-purpose the house wiring to get it to where you need. I would hope that your electrician, faced with a demonstration of the setup in action, would be able to work out how to implement it!