Are we killing the apprenticeship route into the industry?

[Roggi]

Hey Your dead right fella,

I've got into this industry twice and both times in the recession how unlucky can one guy be boo hoo. Started with the old C&G 236 But the reality is i struggled like hell to get through my 2330 and 17th Edition NVQ 3 later on.
Why well not because it was difficult but because of not having enough of the practical side which is needed , so to combat this i got into data cabling and then i managed to get site work but that was as a sub contractor which again you never know what work you'll get . At least with an apprenticeship you get the diversity of work..
In all ive done about four years onsite and many times i wanted to quit whilst i was going to college working 4 days a week and one day at college all because i couldn't do night school that would of killed me , but whilst studies went on a friend of mine did a two week course as a domestic installer and calls himself an electrician but a little while ago he reversed the polarity at the main incomer and nearly burnt down a house . ---- !
The thing is so true i had an argument with my college whom i accused of just money making and they are and all these training centres . It seems these fat cats sit there and put stuff out in the media and to the ordinary guy in the street, buys into this and thinks yeah i'll get into IT or Electrics or Plumbing don't be fooled its good to have a trade but my god the hoops we have to jump through just to work the money outlay just does not seem worth it. You need practical experience people thats how you learn accompanied by the theory.
Now who's for making building a training centre ?

Hi all.

It's these "for profit" training centers that are ruining the industry IMO. Under an apprenticeship you are not allowed to progress further than level 2 without having an employer as the site experience is again IMO most important.

These chaps coming off the back of a training center course simply do not have the practical know how that experience brings to get on and be successful in the industry from the outset, through no fault of their own I may add. With no jobs available to them due to the state of the country at the mo what are they to do.....start their own business charging peanuts and spoil the trade even more.

You only have to look at some of the questions posted on here by "qualified sparks" to realise some of these courses dont teach a damn thing.

I really find it difficult to understand why people see getting into the electrical industry at this present time as a sure fire way of making a fortune as there is simply no work out there, these training centers are making it all up just to relieve you of your hard earned £5G

Now I'm not apologising for anything I've just said as I feel very strongly about this issue and genuinely believe that these "courses" are making a mockery of the industry and will ultimately be it's greatest downfall

There are no doubt exceptions to this but I have yet to see a good one.

Before anyone spouts off about me being stuck in my ways and past it and eliteist, I'm only 27 and yes I am a time served spark.

Regards

Lenny.

 

[EWebster]

I totally agree, I'm not looking for an argument with anyone, it's not my way. But people must understand that the time served guy has spent a minimum of 4 years gaining his qulifications and experience to be classed as a Qualified Electrician, and for some training centre to claim they can do the same in 12 weeks usually without the main 2360, 2330 course is simply an insult.

You've hit the nail on the head there Monty, as regards the training centres making hay while the sun shines, my question is why isn't the OPDM or DWP doing something about it.

12 weeks? You can get domestic installer in 13 days, and I'm ashamed to say I'm living proof!

The difference with me is I was a ships electrician 20 odd years ago, but just went back to it. I was terrified by the amount of incompetence on the courses though.

Nothing prepares you for work in the real world than working in the real world. Apprenticeships definitely are a good route and should be promoted. I have an HND and a BSc, and after 7 years at university, I KNOW that nothing beats hands on experience. Bring back YTS! :-D

 

[gazghost]

I think that is largely the case. At tek when I was 16 I was allways the class idiot. Its not until you get a mortgage etc and have worked in dead end jobs that you really start to appreciate the need for qualifications, just hope the industry picks up again so I havent put all this time and money in for nothing.


The only real comfort in training the 2330 3 yr route is that at least no real electric company will ever take these short course (sparkies) seriously.There is no way they will ever get a job as a maintenance sparkie or understand 3 phase. If they are proper qualifications why don`t other countries except them for emmigration ? When Im fully qualified I have no intentions of working in domestic and being associated with these liabilitys. Leave em to burn the houses down and let the Niceic bite themselves on the arse.

 

[GirlRacerRed]

Speaking from an employers point of view, over the next 5 years or so, I will be losing about 10% of my maintenance workforce which includes electricians due to retirement. The company I work for haven't had to take on apprentices for so long, that we'd almost forgotten what to do. We are now linked in with a local college in our area and we are keen to provide meaningful apprenticeships that will lead to long term work for newly qualified apprentices.

The only problem we have faced is that the apprenticeships are now different to what some of our older workforce worked towards 20-30 years ago. It's a learning curve all round in the Maintenance team now!

I think what went wrong for UK apprenticeships and vocational training in general was Labour's pledge to get 50% of all school and college leavers into university, to train the leaders of tomorrow. But what about all the skilled trades that we still need? Like electricians, plumbers, gas fitters, tilers, mechanics etc?

I don't regret going to university, but I do regret not having the opportunity to do something that was a mix of both academic and hands-on/vocational studying between the ages 14-20.

I still need apprentices in the next few years, and if there isn't an apprenticeship scheme, I'm not sure we'd know where to start in order to train somebody to the required standard and qualification.

GRR

 

[kung]

I think that is largely the case. At tek when I was 16 I was allways the class idiot. Its not until you get a mortgage etc and have worked in dead end jobs that you really start to appreciate the need for qualifications, just hope the industry picks up again so I havent put all this time and money in for nothing.


The only real comfort in training the 2330 3 yr route is that at least no real electric company will ever take these short course (sparkies) seriously.There is no way they will ever get a job as a maintenance sparkie or understand 3 phase. If they are proper qualifications why don`t other countries except them for emmigration ? When Im fully qualified I have no intentions of working in domestic and being associated with these liabilitys. Leave em to burn the houses down and let the Niceic bite themselves on the arse.

Just for your record im fully qualified and worked in the ind for 20yrs I now am self employed after paying the £500 ransom and also domestic installer ! I work in domestics through choice and because i have 2 autistic children one also ADHD and one ASPERGERS SYNDROME ! dont paint every domestic installer with the same brush ! and get your facts right first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LIABILITY ? Would love to take you along to a substation fault ! lost neutral ? and YES i do understand 100% multi phase !

 

[UNG]

The quick route to being a spark started 30 years ago with the government skill centres and various tinkering with the apprentice training scheme over the years has got us to where we are today.
This country has a skills shortage because of the university educated leaders and there balmy ideas, we need to go back to the system where the leaders came from within the industry.
The way this industry is going we are going to be swamped with costly training courses and assessments, not to mention the costs everytime the regs change and the associated OSG and guidance notes.
In my opinion this industry went on the downward slide when the NVQ was introduced. It is about time we learned some lessons from the gas industry and got every spark licenced Corgi / gas safe style we wouldn't have to worry about this Part P rip off then

 

[gazghost]

Just for your record im fully qualified and worked in the ind for 20yrs I now am self employed after paying the £500 ransom and also domestic installer ! I work in domestics through choice and because i have 2 autistic children one also ADHD and one ASPERGERS SYNDROME ! dont paint every domestic installer with the same brush ! and get your facts right first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LIABILITY ? Would love to take you along to a substation fault ! lost neutral ? and YES i do understand 100% multi phase !

I didnt mean every di is a liability , sory if that is how it came across. I too would have to enter the di scheme if i intended to work in domestic. I know many (proper) sparkies who too have di on their vans. Im sure you could blind me with science,but it is the short track, no experience or previous qualifications wollys that anoy me. I will have spent three years gaining my qualifications and had a bloke telling me the other day that his 4 week domestic installer course meant he is as qualified as me and in the same breath telling me that he had no idea on 3 phase. I just wish there was some way of being seperated from the same pot as these types.

 

[kung]

It is about time we learned some lessons from the gas industry and got every spark licenced Corgi / gas safe style we wouldn't have to worry about this Part P rip off then

Agree ! i heard of a DI that was assessed and passed within 45 mins ! yes 45 mins CU at his yard and over the road for a loft light ! 45 mins later he passed ! wish all my quals and time were that easy ! its no wonder it has the rep it has !
As ive said on another post how many have heard of corgi ? gas safe ? NOW how many know who NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA are ? NOW how many customers know about PART P let alown what certs they get ! the whole things ONLY about money nothing more nothing less !

I didnt mean every di is a liability , sory if that is how it came across. I too would have to enter the di scheme if i intended to work in domestic. I know many (proper) sparkies who too have di on their vans. Im sure you could blind me with science,but it is the short track, no experience or previous qualifications wollys that anoy me. I will have spent three years gaining my qualifications and had a bloke telling me the other day that his 4 week domestic installer course meant he is as qualified as me and in the same breath telling me that he had no idea on 3 phase. I just wish there was some way of being seperated from the same pot as these types.

You hit the nail on the head theres 3 types of electrical worker !
1 Domestic installer
2 Sparks
3 DIY Dan yehaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr
1 is supposed to stamp out 3 but thats a laugh lets face it its NOT working !
2 is time served and its an insult making them do a domestic installer assessment !

The trouble is theres lots a householder can do inc add a socket or light with no knowledge of loading etc etc you cant work on gas pipes etc ONLY gas safe/corgi personel ! it should be the same with electrics all bar replace broken socket etc only we know who can do what the average householder doesnt have a clue ! SOME SCHEME !

 

[gazghost]

again sory if i affended mr kun

 

[kung]

again sory if i affended mr kun

No worries buddy just having a mad 5mins im ok now back on the med and dont worry you can blind that guy with your shiney new jib gold card when you get it !
Regards
Kung.

 

[gazghost]

No worries buddy just having a mad 5mins im ok now back on the med and dont worry you can blind that guy with your shiney new jib gold card when you get it !
Regards
Kung.

(hopefully cheers)

 

[High Tower]

Some of what has been said i wholeheartedly agree with, however a lot of it just makes me angry.

There is a lot to be said for structured training i really do agree, however the obsession that unless you are a time served sparks from the age of 16 then you shouldnt be a spark at all is nothing short of rediculous.

I will conceed that the majority of people i have come across on this forum have been the picture of consumate pros!. knowlegable, good fun, good sense of humour and good at their jobs, however most of the "time served sparks" i have come across dont live up to the same ilk.

the fact that our members come on here show that they have passion and dedication.

to be fair, im sick of time seved sparks in general, and im even more sick of sorting out their mess and doing their jobs properly. The old school seem incapable of working more than about 7 hrs a day, they are dead against change, and seem incapable of embracing anything. i find them cliquey, and impossible, and im sure they are difficult just for the sake of it. in no way flexible or accomodating.

is this what people who dont do apprentaships are missing out on??? I must again stress that the majority of present company accepted and not tarred with this brush!

I have seen more poor workmanship, corner cutting and dangerous installations at the hands of time served sparks than anything else.

how ever, so called fast trak sparks are ludicrous and shouldnt be allowed to practice with such limited knowlege.

I to support a corgi style scheme,

I think the suggestion that the more mature improver would not have the attitude or personality to cope on site is rediculous as well, I was a chef for 14 years and i worked in some of the best and toughest kitchens in britain, for this reason i have a better sense of humour, better communication skills and better tolerance than the majority of the grumpy difficult sparks i have come across.

i have a talent for electrics, i have a higher than average understanding and intelligence level, i am more than capable for the things i do. for me to qualify as a sparks i have had to go back to college at 28, i think i am a 100 times better candidate and student than my 17 year old counterparts, my life has consisted of working 75 hr weeks in a kitchen, off to college on my monday off to do my 2330, and my one remaining rest day is spent on site trying to get some site experience. i am more than competent to do house re-wires but because of the current climate i am also still working my socks off in a kitchen.

I can work 16 hour shifts with out to much problem, and will always find a way to get the job done, unlike a lot of sparks who knock of at 4.30 regardless,

i dont see what when i will soon have my full 2330, 2391, 2382, part p, pat testing and PIR i am any less entitled to work as a sparky than someone who has served their time, and the constant whining that the work should be for the time served sparks and not people like me is wrong,

As i have said i really rate a lot of the sparks on here but the attitude of some really makes me irate!

I have worked twice as hard as most to enable me to realise my ambition to be a sparks and i will continue to work twice as hard. for this reason i will leave a lot of sparks in my wake.

 

[megaman83]

as soon as i read the first sentence of your post i could see were this was going, good luck at the domestic work then cause thats all you'll get, no agencies will take on adult trainee, labourer or what ever else way you can manage to call yourselves sparks, also forget oil and gas work or anything specialised unless you came from a previous electrical/electronic background, good luck with immigration proving to them your a spark if you wanted to go to greener pastures, im glad NI hasnt embraced these nonsense courses, would you be happy in hospital if a nurse had all the paper work to say she was a nurse but hadnt dressed a bandage before and was walking your way??? wise up

 

[Risteard]

We don't have Part P in the Six Counties at this stage, though. I suspect that's the real difference. Whilst I'm in favour of regulation it seems to have encouraged these types of courses.

 

[megaman83]

it is crazy to let someone into your house to do electrical work after doing a six week course, i mean the course must be rubbish when you have guys willing to work for free to get EXPERIENCE, AFTER doing the course, that alone says it all! self certifing should be something a car washer does , not an electrician! Rant over

 

[High Tower]

it is crazy to let someone into your house to do electrical work after doing a six week course, i mean the course must be rubbish when you have guys willing to work for free to get EXPERIENCE, AFTER doing the course, that alone says it all! self certifing should be something a car washer does , not an electrician! Rant over

I assume you also include those of us in this that have bust their balls for 3 years completing the 2330 at college as well as doing theire 2382 and 2391??

 

[megaman83]

I assume you also include those of us in this that have bust their balls for 3 years completing the 2330 at college as well as doing theire 2382 and 2391??

well if you have completed 3 years at tech fair play too you, and busted your balls did i hear you say?

so your now admitting it was hard?

yep? 16years old and i did all those exams, NVQs, assessments , log books the lot!

hard enough i agree but i passed them as a school leaver and the following years doing my apprenticeship, and you know why it was easy for me, because i had all the drive and motivation you say that you have!

 

[High Tower]

well if you have completed 3 years at tech fair play too you, and busted your balls did i hear you say?

so your now admitting it was hard?

yep? 16years old and i did all those exams, NVQs, assessments , log books the lot!

hard enough i agree but i passed them as a school leaver and the following years doing my apprenticeship, and you know why it was easy for me, because i had all the drive and motivation you say that you have!

At no point did i ever take anything away from you guys, nor have i ever lost any of my respect for the genuinely good sparks, i have great admiration and respect for all the guys.

Busting my balls?? yes, 14 hours a day in a kitchen working till midnight most nights and then having to get up and go to collage on my day off, its a killer but i love it and i wouldnt have it any other way when the day comes and i can finally turn my back on my old trade and never set foot in a kitchen again and just be a sparks, well that will be pay day, never know i might even retun home to Ireland and create a bit of compatition for you

 

[megaman83]

i wouldnt bother theres no work here lol

 

[High Tower]

i wouldnt bother theres no work here lol

Yeah i know i was over 3 weeks ago helping finish my aunts B&B it will pick up again im sure soon.

Went up to belfast a couple of times to a few of my dads old haunts, the city is looking better than ever.

Cant see me ever going back to live, been here neerly all my life since i was a baby, im as much a brummie as i am a paddy, did consider it for a while but i have too many things to tie me here