OP
chrisjacob
I also have so much interest in central heating.I know one book of 2005 on domestic central heating wiring system and control by Ray ward. And the other 2008 book on central heating is by Patrick Mitchell.
Search the forum,
C
S
this is misleading, if an electrician turned on a uncommissioned appliance it would not be the electrician that has broken the gas regulations. No gas appliance can be left connected to the gas supply if uncommissioned. So if an appliance has been left connected and uncommissioned and an electrician did turn on the appliance it is the gas safe engineer that has broken a very important gas regulation. Not the electrician.
if you know of this happening as you have stated then you should report this to the hse as its dangerous and any gas safe engineer doing this should be removed from the gas safe register for being a mupet.
"Hello snoopydo",
I had NOT stated that my examples / the situations were definitely where the Gas Appliances were definitely NOT Commissioned before the Electricians were asked to `Turn On` after they installed / wired the Heating Controls - BUT there was that possibility - the Electricians had been told that the Appliances were `ready to go` - see my comments below on Commissioning with temporary wiring / extension lead etc.
BUT the Electrician should still not operate the Gas Appliance / Heating System in these situations.
Although they SHOULD - Heating Engineers / Gas Engineers often do NOT pipe up the Gas Supply to the Boiler / Gas Appliance and then disconnect and cap it until the Electrical Controls are installed and wired up.
While You are correct that a Gas Appliance should NOT be left connected to the Gas Supply unless it has been Commissioned by the Heating Engineer / Gas Safe Engineer - it is `standard practice` to Commission the Heating System / Boiler / Gas Appliance by plugging in cables from the Appliance / Appliance & Pump to an extension lead BEFORE the Electrical Controls are installed.
Unless I have had the opportunity to have the Heating Controls fully installed before I have completed a Heating System - which would be unusual - I do the Gas Commissioning of the Appliance as above on EVERY Heating System installation - on this `First Run` I will have added the System Cleanser which I want to circulate before Draining and Flushing out the Heating System.
Usually I would have Commissioned - Cleansed & Flushed out - plus added Corrosion Inhibitor and fully Tested and carried out a Rough Balance of the Heating System before the Electrical Controls are installed / wired up.
In these cases the Boiler would NOT be disconnected from the Gas Supply before the Heating Controls were installed and wired up - BUT - I would turn off the Boiler / Appliance Gas and hang a label onto it stating NOT to operate it until I returned to do so.
In a worst case scenario - in the event that something serious caused Me to never be able to return to the Job and I had not yet completed the Commissioning Certificate / Gas Safety Certificate / Manufacturers Warranty paperwork etc. obviously another Heating Engineer / Gas Safe Engineer would have to be engaged to go through the Commissioning procedure again to put the Gas Appliance into operation.
When writing in general terms / or on other peoples Installations - as the Electrician MAY NOT know whether the Gas Appliance has been Commissioned or not they should still NOT be the person who `turns on` the Heating System - although they will obviously have checked the `Electrical operation` of the Controls by Electrical Testing.
Ideally the operation Controls should also be checked at that time by the operation of the Heating System by the Heating Engineer IF they are on Site.
I always ensure that I am on Site for on that Day of the Job as I would probably be insulating Ground Floor Heating and Plumbing pipework - Cylinder Cupboard pipework - possibly Loft space pipework and fixing down Floorboards / making good etc. when the Electrical Controls are being installed.
On any New System the Heating Engineer / Gas Safe Engineer will obviously want to run the Heating System after the Controls are installed and wired to make sure that the Controls - Programmer / Timeswitch - Thermostats and Zone Valves are operating correctly.
So although Your comments would be correct regarding an Un-commissioned Gas Appliance not being left connected to the Gas Supply - it would NOT be correct to either assume that a Gas Appliance which was connected to the Gas Supply WAS or was NOT Commissioned previously - as I described above - prior to the Electrical Controls being installed.
As I am sure You know an Un-Commissioned Gas Appliance should be Labelled as such - But this is unlikely to be done by most Heating Engineers / Gas Safe Engineers just while waiting for the Electrical Controls to be installed - Unless there will be a long period of time in between the Heating / Appliance Installation and the Electrical Controls installation.
IF I were ever in the situation where there was going to be a significant delay between My Commissioning and the Electrical Controls being installed I would probably also disconnect my Temporary cables from the Boiler and Pump - unless it was Winter and the Property was either going to be occupied or needed the Heating System operating to prevent Freezing.
I write from a Lifetime of experience of running My own Heating, Plumbing and Gas Installation Business and what I described above about Commissioning the Appliance using Electrical power from an extension lead is the Normal procedure for Myself and most other Self Employed Heating Engineers that I have ever known.
BUT - because this would NOT necessarily be known by the Electrician following to install the Heating / Appliance Controls - that is why I wrote my comments about the Electrician NOT turning on the Heating System / Gas Appliance.
I have a good knowledge of the Gas Safety Regulations which has been enhanced by over 40 Years of putting the regulations into practice while working in the Heating - Plumbing and Gas Trades - and by having to Pass quite detailed Domestic Gas ACS Re-assessments on a 5 Yearly basis since about 1995.
I used to be `Qualified` / ACS Assessed for Non Domestic Gas also but I stopped taking the Re-assessments some time ago because of the Expense and the fact that I did not do much Non Domestic work.
Regards,
Chris
S
"Hello again snoopydo",
I am NOT trying to be funny to You with this reply - especially now that I know You are a Heating Engineer - My point is this simple:
On a NEW Gas Appliance installation it is against the Gas Safety Regulations for ANYONE except a Registered Gas Engineer / Installer to put a Gas Appliance into operation if it cannot be established / PROVEN that the Gas Appliance has been correctly Installed and Commissioned by a Registered Gas Engineer / Installer.
Unless the Electrician actually knows the Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer and knows for sure that He / She is a Registered Gas Engineer / Installer OR sees a Copy of the Commissioning Certificate / or previously used Benchmark Booklet - how are they going to know that the Appliance is Safe to operate ?
Even seeing a Gas Safety Certificate does NOT Prove that the Gas Appliance installation is Safe - it could have been filled out by someone who is NOT a Gas Safe Registered Engineer.
The person who puts the Gas Appliance `into use` MUST be a Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer - ONLY a person in this class of Competent Persons for Gas can decide that the Appliance is Safe for use.
That is why an Electrician should NOT be the person who puts the Gas Appliance into operation after they carry out the Controls installation.
I went into too much detail in my previous message about Heating Engineers who do Commission the Gas Appliance using temporary cables / plugs / an extension lead - BUT while this may have been done before the Electrician arrives to install the Heating Controls and that is why the Gas Appliance has not been disconnected from its Gas Supply obviously that cannot be taken for granted by the Electrician or anyone else.
What about Appliances that are installed by `Cowboy`s` who are NOT Registered Gas Engineers / Installers and which might well have serious / Life threatening Installation / Safety defects - How would the Electrician KNOW that ? - Yet they would be the person who could actually cause Deaths by putting the Gas Appliance with the Installation / Safety defects into operation !
As You know quite a few people have DIED after SOMEONE thought that a Gas Appliance / Flue was `O.K` !
In the scenario where an Electrician installed Heating Controls on one of My Heating Systems although the Boiler would have been Commissioned before they carried out their Works and it would be perfectly Safe for them to Run / Operate the Heating System / Boiler - I would NOT put them into that position.
It is MY responsibility to affirm that the Gas Appliance is Safe for use and to operate the Heating System / Boiler and Set / Check the Controls after the Controls are installed - as part of finishing the Job.
I am sure that there are many Contracts where the Electricians DO operate the Heating Systems / Gas Appliances after they have installed the Heating Controls - when the Heating Engineers have moved on - hopefully ALL of these Gas Appliances have previously been Commissioned using the temporary wiring method !
We may have been thinking at slightly crossed purposes - probably not helped by my over long previous messages / replies.
I am sure that We would agree on the Safety aspect of this type of situation - in order that NO Gas Appliance is `Accidentally` put into use without having been Officially Commissioned - as could be the case if ANYTHING is taken for granted about an installation.
Regards,
Chris
S
Discuss Heating Wiring Course in the Central Heating Systems area at ElectriciansForums.net
OP
snoopydo
this is misleading, if an electrician turned on a uncommissioned appliance it would not be the electrician that has broken the gas regulations. No gas appliance can be left connected to the gas supply if uncommissioned. So if an appliance has been left connected and uncommissioned and an electrician did turn on the appliance it is the gas safe engineer that has broken a very important gas regulation. Not the electrician.
if you know of this happening as you have stated then you should report this to the hse as its dangerous and any gas safe engineer doing this should be removed from the gas safe register for being a mupet.
- Reaction score
- 259
"Hello snoopydo",
I had NOT stated that my examples / the situations were definitely where the Gas Appliances were definitely NOT Commissioned before the Electricians were asked to `Turn On` after they installed / wired the Heating Controls - BUT there was that possibility - the Electricians had been told that the Appliances were `ready to go` - see my comments below on Commissioning with temporary wiring / extension lead etc.
BUT the Electrician should still not operate the Gas Appliance / Heating System in these situations.
Although they SHOULD - Heating Engineers / Gas Engineers often do NOT pipe up the Gas Supply to the Boiler / Gas Appliance and then disconnect and cap it until the Electrical Controls are installed and wired up.
While You are correct that a Gas Appliance should NOT be left connected to the Gas Supply unless it has been Commissioned by the Heating Engineer / Gas Safe Engineer - it is `standard practice` to Commission the Heating System / Boiler / Gas Appliance by plugging in cables from the Appliance / Appliance & Pump to an extension lead BEFORE the Electrical Controls are installed.
Unless I have had the opportunity to have the Heating Controls fully installed before I have completed a Heating System - which would be unusual - I do the Gas Commissioning of the Appliance as above on EVERY Heating System installation - on this `First Run` I will have added the System Cleanser which I want to circulate before Draining and Flushing out the Heating System.
Usually I would have Commissioned - Cleansed & Flushed out - plus added Corrosion Inhibitor and fully Tested and carried out a Rough Balance of the Heating System before the Electrical Controls are installed / wired up.
In these cases the Boiler would NOT be disconnected from the Gas Supply before the Heating Controls were installed and wired up - BUT - I would turn off the Boiler / Appliance Gas and hang a label onto it stating NOT to operate it until I returned to do so.
In a worst case scenario - in the event that something serious caused Me to never be able to return to the Job and I had not yet completed the Commissioning Certificate / Gas Safety Certificate / Manufacturers Warranty paperwork etc. obviously another Heating Engineer / Gas Safe Engineer would have to be engaged to go through the Commissioning procedure again to put the Gas Appliance into operation.
When writing in general terms / or on other peoples Installations - as the Electrician MAY NOT know whether the Gas Appliance has been Commissioned or not they should still NOT be the person who `turns on` the Heating System - although they will obviously have checked the `Electrical operation` of the Controls by Electrical Testing.
Ideally the operation Controls should also be checked at that time by the operation of the Heating System by the Heating Engineer IF they are on Site.
I always ensure that I am on Site for on that Day of the Job as I would probably be insulating Ground Floor Heating and Plumbing pipework - Cylinder Cupboard pipework - possibly Loft space pipework and fixing down Floorboards / making good etc. when the Electrical Controls are being installed.
On any New System the Heating Engineer / Gas Safe Engineer will obviously want to run the Heating System after the Controls are installed and wired to make sure that the Controls - Programmer / Timeswitch - Thermostats and Zone Valves are operating correctly.
So although Your comments would be correct regarding an Un-commissioned Gas Appliance not being left connected to the Gas Supply - it would NOT be correct to either assume that a Gas Appliance which was connected to the Gas Supply WAS or was NOT Commissioned previously - as I described above - prior to the Electrical Controls being installed.
As I am sure You know an Un-Commissioned Gas Appliance should be Labelled as such - But this is unlikely to be done by most Heating Engineers / Gas Safe Engineers just while waiting for the Electrical Controls to be installed - Unless there will be a long period of time in between the Heating / Appliance Installation and the Electrical Controls installation.
IF I were ever in the situation where there was going to be a significant delay between My Commissioning and the Electrical Controls being installed I would probably also disconnect my Temporary cables from the Boiler and Pump - unless it was Winter and the Property was either going to be occupied or needed the Heating System operating to prevent Freezing.
I write from a Lifetime of experience of running My own Heating, Plumbing and Gas Installation Business and what I described above about Commissioning the Appliance using Electrical power from an extension lead is the Normal procedure for Myself and most other Self Employed Heating Engineers that I have ever known.
BUT - because this would NOT necessarily be known by the Electrician following to install the Heating / Appliance Controls - that is why I wrote my comments about the Electrician NOT turning on the Heating System / Gas Appliance.
I have a good knowledge of the Gas Safety Regulations which has been enhanced by over 40 Years of putting the regulations into practice while working in the Heating - Plumbing and Gas Trades - and by having to Pass quite detailed Domestic Gas ACS Re-assessments on a 5 Yearly basis since about 1995.
I used to be `Qualified` / ACS Assessed for Non Domestic Gas also but I stopped taking the Re-assessments some time ago because of the Expense and the fact that I did not do much Non Domestic work.
Regards,
Chris
Last edited:
OP
snoopydo
why do you use different colours? its alot harder to read for me.
i was pointing out that your statement was slightly misleading and could be mis-understood being on a electrical forum. An electrician turning on an appliance after he/she has wired controls will not be breaking the gas regulations so even if you personally wanted the electrician not to turn the appliance on they would be safe to do so.(unless they are removing a case which seals the combustion system).
i fully understand the "way it works" on contracts being a heating engineer myself of 20years, but i also understand that the sparks may need to operate the controls to perform his/her functional tests. There are always a need to keep the boiler running for the tenant, or circulate the cleaning chems in different situations, but a sparks turning a boiler on will never be responsilbe for its safe operation from a gas point of view (unless the case forms a combustion seal).
i would be happy for any electrican to assume any boiler i had fitted and left running to be safe to turn back on once they have done there work or any boiler i had left uncommissioned (disconnected and label'd)to be turned on to enable it to be electrically tested. I cant comment on other gas engineers bad practice's or blame any electrician for such.
i was pointing out that your statement was slightly misleading and could be mis-understood being on a electrical forum. An electrician turning on an appliance after he/she has wired controls will not be breaking the gas regulations so even if you personally wanted the electrician not to turn the appliance on they would be safe to do so.(unless they are removing a case which seals the combustion system).
i fully understand the "way it works" on contracts being a heating engineer myself of 20years, but i also understand that the sparks may need to operate the controls to perform his/her functional tests. There are always a need to keep the boiler running for the tenant, or circulate the cleaning chems in different situations, but a sparks turning a boiler on will never be responsilbe for its safe operation from a gas point of view (unless the case forms a combustion seal).
i would be happy for any electrican to assume any boiler i had fitted and left running to be safe to turn back on once they have done there work or any boiler i had left uncommissioned (disconnected and label'd)to be turned on to enable it to be electrically tested. I cant comment on other gas engineers bad practice's or blame any electrician for such.
- Reaction score
- 259
"Hello again snoopydo",
I am NOT trying to be funny to You with this reply - especially now that I know You are a Heating Engineer - My point is this simple:
On a NEW Gas Appliance installation it is against the Gas Safety Regulations for ANYONE except a Registered Gas Engineer / Installer to put a Gas Appliance into operation if it cannot be established / PROVEN that the Gas Appliance has been correctly Installed and Commissioned by a Registered Gas Engineer / Installer.
Unless the Electrician actually knows the Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer and knows for sure that He / She is a Registered Gas Engineer / Installer OR sees a Copy of the Commissioning Certificate / or previously used Benchmark Booklet - how are they going to know that the Appliance is Safe to operate ?
Even seeing a Gas Safety Certificate does NOT Prove that the Gas Appliance installation is Safe - it could have been filled out by someone who is NOT a Gas Safe Registered Engineer.
The person who puts the Gas Appliance `into use` MUST be a Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer - ONLY a person in this class of Competent Persons for Gas can decide that the Appliance is Safe for use.
That is why an Electrician should NOT be the person who puts the Gas Appliance into operation after they carry out the Controls installation.
I went into too much detail in my previous message about Heating Engineers who do Commission the Gas Appliance using temporary cables / plugs / an extension lead - BUT while this may have been done before the Electrician arrives to install the Heating Controls and that is why the Gas Appliance has not been disconnected from its Gas Supply obviously that cannot be taken for granted by the Electrician or anyone else.
What about Appliances that are installed by `Cowboy`s` who are NOT Registered Gas Engineers / Installers and which might well have serious / Life threatening Installation / Safety defects - How would the Electrician KNOW that ? - Yet they would be the person who could actually cause Deaths by putting the Gas Appliance with the Installation / Safety defects into operation !
As You know quite a few people have DIED after SOMEONE thought that a Gas Appliance / Flue was `O.K` !
In the scenario where an Electrician installed Heating Controls on one of My Heating Systems although the Boiler would have been Commissioned before they carried out their Works and it would be perfectly Safe for them to Run / Operate the Heating System / Boiler - I would NOT put them into that position.
It is MY responsibility to affirm that the Gas Appliance is Safe for use and to operate the Heating System / Boiler and Set / Check the Controls after the Controls are installed - as part of finishing the Job.
I am sure that there are many Contracts where the Electricians DO operate the Heating Systems / Gas Appliances after they have installed the Heating Controls - when the Heating Engineers have moved on - hopefully ALL of these Gas Appliances have previously been Commissioned using the temporary wiring method !
We may have been thinking at slightly crossed purposes - probably not helped by my over long previous messages / replies.
I am sure that We would agree on the Safety aspect of this type of situation - in order that NO Gas Appliance is `Accidentally` put into use without having been Officially Commissioned - as could be the case if ANYTHING is taken for granted about an installation.
Regards,
Chris
Last edited:
OP
snoopydo
my point is this............ the appliance will have either been commissioned and left connected to the gas, safe to use or not commissioned and disconnected from the gas. Either way an electrician will not break any gas reg turning it on. It would be the gas engineer that left it uncommissioned and connected that broke the gas regs. There should be no point that an electrician could be turning it on and leaving it unsafe. Its the gas safe engineers sole responsibility.
my point is simple and correct.
my point is simple and correct.
- Reaction score
- 259
"Hello snoopydo",
I was hoping to avoid having to be abrupt in what I wrote to You - I THOUGHT that I had written enough detail to explain the LEGAL FACTS about what We have been writing about.
BUT - after You wrote this abrupt comment: `my point is simple and correct` - I will have to re-state My / the LEGAL position:
Are You stating that irrespective of ANY other possible scenario if an Electrician wires up Heating Controls to a Boiler / Gas Appliance which is connected to a Gas Supply they are then able to Turn On and operate the Boiler / Gas Appliance [and leave it operating] - with impunity ?
That suggestion is absolutely ridiculous !
These are the kind of `misunderstandings` that cause DEATHS !
What about circumstances where the Gas Appliance was NOT correctly commissioned - including in a situation where it had been installed by someone who was NOT a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer and where it was an `Unsafe Installation` - without the Electrician knowing that ?
`Cowboy` / Non Gas Safe registered Installers would NOT disconnect the Gas Appliance from the Gas Supply when the Appliance had NOT been correctly Installed/Commissioned !
The Electrician would NOT know whether it was SAFE to operate the Gas Appliance - therefore they should NOT operate the Gas Appliance.
You MUST look at the situation from the viewpoint that the Electrician would NOT know whether the Gas Appliance was SAFE to operate and therefore should NOT turn it On / put it into operation.
ONLY a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer can put the Gas Appliance into operation in the circumstances that We have been corresponding about.
Your points and your comment `my point is simple and correct` would ONLY be correct IF the Gas Appliance HAD BEEN either Commissioned by a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer OR disconnected from the Gas Supply by them - AND that this was KNOWN / and PROVEABLE to be a FACT by the Electrician - in ALL other possible screnarios You are WRONG.
There is no point in Us arguing further about this - But I can tell You that You are absolutely WRONG in what You are stating.
Regards,
Chris
I was hoping to avoid having to be abrupt in what I wrote to You - I THOUGHT that I had written enough detail to explain the LEGAL FACTS about what We have been writing about.
BUT - after You wrote this abrupt comment: `my point is simple and correct` - I will have to re-state My / the LEGAL position:
Are You stating that irrespective of ANY other possible scenario if an Electrician wires up Heating Controls to a Boiler / Gas Appliance which is connected to a Gas Supply they are then able to Turn On and operate the Boiler / Gas Appliance [and leave it operating] - with impunity ?
That suggestion is absolutely ridiculous !
These are the kind of `misunderstandings` that cause DEATHS !
What about circumstances where the Gas Appliance was NOT correctly commissioned - including in a situation where it had been installed by someone who was NOT a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer and where it was an `Unsafe Installation` - without the Electrician knowing that ?
`Cowboy` / Non Gas Safe registered Installers would NOT disconnect the Gas Appliance from the Gas Supply when the Appliance had NOT been correctly Installed/Commissioned !
The Electrician would NOT know whether it was SAFE to operate the Gas Appliance - therefore they should NOT operate the Gas Appliance.
You MUST look at the situation from the viewpoint that the Electrician would NOT know whether the Gas Appliance was SAFE to operate and therefore should NOT turn it On / put it into operation.
ONLY a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer can put the Gas Appliance into operation in the circumstances that We have been corresponding about.
Your points and your comment `my point is simple and correct` would ONLY be correct IF the Gas Appliance HAD BEEN either Commissioned by a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer OR disconnected from the Gas Supply by them - AND that this was KNOWN / and PROVEABLE to be a FACT by the Electrician - in ALL other possible screnarios You are WRONG.
There is no point in Us arguing further about this - But I can tell You that You are absolutely WRONG in what You are stating.
Regards,
Chris
Last edited:
Reply to Heating Wiring Course in the Central Heating Systems area at ElectriciansForums.net
Similar Threads
OFFICIAL SPONSORS
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.