I thought short courses were fine. Just done a week on site. Now i think they're not fit for purpose.

[Electrics]

This might be long so feel free to grab a brew.

So, as some of you may know, i'm a 34 year old who has been dying to get into the industry. I have fought for years to get someone to take me on and have been unsuccessful despite having a background in construction (I can basically build a whole house on my own) and can do the electrical basics.

I was so frustrated for years that I thought the only way I could get into the game was by doing one of those 16 week courses that promises to get your Level 3 C&G. I've actually signed up to one of the providers and then backed out on two separate occasions - one of them cost me a £150 deposit.

While I still think that sure, they're great at cramming and you get the exact same theory as someone on an apprenticeship route gets, it's become apparent to me that in the real world they're not worth the paper they're written on even if you get the same theory. Why? Experience. It's missing.

I thought, sure, once I can wire lights and sockets etc I can just apply it to any situation. I'm now not sure it actually works like that.

So what changed? I GOT A JOB. I'm on a 2 week trial for a potential traineeship/apprenticeship with a bigish (18+ blokes) firm in my area.

I like to think I'm alright at the basics already - I could rewire a house if I really needed to. But my it's been a shock and a real eye opener as to just how you cannot replace experience.

So day 1, I get sent to a massive factory which makes car parts and I'm helping put in 120 SWA. This stuff as I'm sure you know is the thickness of a 500ml coke bottle and heavy to boot.

I'm working in these two modules that have been unplugged and moved to a different part of the factory and then have to be connected back up again. They're in welding bays. It's absolutely manky. I came home looking like I'd been down a pit. Stuff isn't labelled up properly. There are cables missing. There are DB's all over the place in this factory, and also cabinets full of module switching, ethernet, and communication cables that all had to be sorted. There was electric shuttters. There was masses of massive cables that had to be tied properly and neatly. There was tonnes of unistrut and trunking as well as tray that needed to be installed and fitted correctly.

Day 3 I'm at a hospice doing emergency lighting tests. Then we go to a rented property and sort out some snagging - FCU's, light fittings, bathroom extractor, outside switched light.

Day 4 I'm at an airport putting in sockets and lights in conduit.

Day 5 I'm at a garden centre replacing lights.

This is just the first week. I now don't think it's possible to go from a short course into this big bad world of electrics with so many different kinds of jobs and be able to know what you're doing, qualified on paper or not. Putting in new cables is easy. Figuring out what someone else has done can be difficult.

If we ignore the technical aspect of the job there are just so many different fixtures and fittings available and they all get fit in slightly different ways. There's just no way. You cannot learn this from a short course.

I always thought those who poo-poo'd these courses were elitist jerks but I now realise why - they knew something I didn't. They're in the game, they're doing the work, they see it day in day out. Youtube house bashers make it look fairly straightforward and I still believe that when it comes to single phase domestic, it's still probably possible to do a short course and build up experience on smaller jobs.

But to be a proper electrician I now believe that you cannot become a proper well rounded electrician without actually DOING the job.

To those of you in similar situations to what I was - don't give up. I've been trying to get someone to take me on since I was 25 in 2012 and have had no joy. I'm now 9 years older and someone finally decided to give me a shot.

Keep plugging away and if you need to, enrol at college and try to convince someone to take you on on the back of that. Think twice about dropping thousands on short training which is going to leave you absolutely stumped at the first sign of a problem you're not familiar with.

Working on the job around other people who can show you the ropes is invaluable. I've already learned so much in my first week and I thought I knew most of it already. I knew jack. But I now have people to ask when I'm not sure, instead of trying to guess it myself.

Now the real learning begins.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Electrics]

But you would still need to have enough knowledge and experience to know that the guy is doing a proper job.

That's where credentials come in.

You just hire someone who did an apprenticeship, has a good work history and references etc. If Steve applies for the job and Steve did his time, has been working in the game for 10 years and has glowing references it's probably likely he will be good enough at the job. You then hire him, pay him his £25 an hour and say 'i'm also qualified but i'm going to be working as your mate'. Hey presto, you got yourself a job.

Lots of companies start off as eg joiners and then as they grow they incorporate the other trades into the company without necessarily knowing much about them themselves.

 

[UNG]

That's where credentials come in.

You just hire someone who did an apprenticeship, has a good work history and references etc. If Steve applies for the job and Steve did his time, has been working in the game for 10 years and has glowing references it's probably likely he will be good enough at the job. You then hire him, pay him his £25 an hour and say 'i'm also qualified but i'm going to be working as your mate'. Hey presto, you got yourself a job.

Lots of companies start off as eg joiners and then as they grow they incorporate the other trades into the company without necessarily knowing much about them themselves.

One of the best electricians I ever employed had one of the worst references ever and quite a few with glowing references were soon found out and fired. So sorry to shoot down your theory but you can't depend on references
Also I'm not sure your business model stacks up if you take into account all the overheads including the non productive time for possibly 2 people at times while things like the paperwork is being done

 

[Megawatt]

This might be long so feel free to grab a brew.

So, as some of you may know, i'm a 34 year old who has been dying to get into the industry. I have fought for years to get someone to take me on and have been unsuccessful despite having a background in construction (I can basically build a whole house on my own) and can do the electrical basics.

I was so frustrated for years that I thought the only way I could get into the game was by doing one of those 16 week courses that promises to get your Level 3 C&G. I've actually signed up to one of the providers and then backed out on two separate occasions - one of them cost me a £150 deposit.

While I still think that sure, they're great at cramming and you get the exact same theory as someone on an apprenticeship route gets, it's become apparent to me that in the real world they're not worth the paper they're written on even if you get the same theory. Why? Experience. It's missing.

I thought, sure, once I can wire lights and sockets etc I can just apply it to any situation. I'm now not sure it actually works like that.

So what changed? I GOT A JOB. I'm on a 2 week trial for a potential traineeship/apprenticeship with a bigish (18+ blokes) firm in my area.

I like to think I'm alright at the basics already - I could rewire a house if I really needed to. But my it's been a shock and a real eye opener as to just how you cannot replace experience.

So day 1, I get sent to a massive factory which makes car parts and I'm helping put in 120 SWA. This stuff as I'm sure you know is the thickness of a 500ml coke bottle and heavy to boot.

I'm working in these two modules that have been unplugged and moved to a different part of the factory and then have to be connected back up again. They're in welding bays. It's absolutely manky. I came home looking like I'd been down a pit. Stuff isn't labelled up properly. There are cables missing. There are DB's all over the place in this factory, and also cabinets full of module switching, ethernet, and communication cables that all had to be sorted. There was electric shuttters. There was masses of massive cables that had to be tied properly and neatly. There was tonnes of unistrut and trunking as well as tray that needed to be installed and fitted correctly.

Day 3 I'm at a hospice doing emergency lighting tests. Then we go to a rented property and sort out some snagging - FCU's, light fittings, bathroom extractor, outside switched light.

Day 4 I'm at an airport putting in sockets and lights in conduit.

Day 5 I'm at a garden centre replacing lights.

This is just the first week. I now don't think it's possible to go from a short course into this big bad world of electrics with so many different kinds of jobs and be able to know what you're doing, qualified on paper or not. Putting in new cables is easy. Figuring out what someone else has done can be difficult.

If we ignore the technical aspect of the job there are just so many different fixtures and fittings available and they all get fit in slightly different ways. There's just no way. You cannot learn this from a short course.

I always thought those who poo-poo'd these courses were elitist jerks but I now realise why - they knew something I didn't. They're in the game, they're doing the work, they see it day in day out. Youtube house bashers make it look fairly straightforward and I still believe that when it comes to single phase domestic, it's still probably possible to do a short course and build up experience on smaller jobs.

But to be a proper electrician I now believe that you cannot become a proper well rounded electrician without actually DOING the job.

To those of you in similar situations to what I was - don't give up. I've been trying to get someone to take me on since I was 25 in 2012 and have had no joy. I'm now 9 years older and someone finally decided to give me a shot.

Keep plugging away and if you need to, enrol at college and try to convince someone to take you on on the back of that. Think twice about dropping thousands on short training which is going to leave you absolutely stumped at the first sign of a problem you're not familiar with.

Working on the job around other people who can show you the ropes is invaluable. I've already learned so much in my first week and I thought I knew most of it already. I knew jack. But I now have people to ask when I'm not sure, instead of trying to guess it myself.

Now the real learning begins.

Thanks for reading.

Welcome to the real world of being a well rounded electrician. No one ever side it was easy. Nothing and I mean nothing beats on the job experience especially the huge variety of working in manufacturing facility’s to doing domestic work. I wish you the best of luck and don’t just throw in the towel. A lot of electricians can’t or want to help you learn. I know going to an auto manufacturing facility is a huge awakening. Don’t look at the big picture because it can be overwhelming. Take it one day at a time and never give up.

 

[Electrics]

One of the best electricians I ever employed had one of the worst references ever and quite a few with glowing references were soon found out and fired. So sorry to shoot down your theory but you can't depend on references
Also I'm not sure your business model stacks up if you take into account all the overheads including the non productive time for possibly 2 people at times while things like the paperwork is being done

You're basically saying to start a business and employ someone you also have to be an expert capable of doing the job yourself. Sorry but that's clearly nonsense.

I could put ads in the paper now - get some jobs in and just advertise for blokes and get them on any work that comes in. It's really fairly simple but imo some on this forum just love to be contrarian for the sake of it.

The extent of lateral thinking when it comes to things like this is also lacking. Where's the ambition?

Men from old Europe without a penny in their pocket went to America and became wealthy by taking initiative.

What i've suggested here is not outlandish at all. Get some organisational skills, line up some jobs, get some qualified men on them. You're the bossman, you're also qualified on paper and you tell them that actually you'll be giving them a lift as a mate but want them to do the lion's share of the work.

Where's the problem?

OP is qualified on paper. It's hardly a stretch to imagine he could start up a business and employ staff like thousands of people do but also jump on the tools himself.

 

[James]

You're basically saying to start a business and employ someone you also have to be an expert capable of doing the job yourself. Sorry but that's clearly nonsense.

I could put ads in the paper now - get some jobs in and just advertise for blokes and get them on any work that comes in. It's really fairly simple but imo some on this forum just love to be contrarian for the sake of it.

The extent of lateral thinking when it comes to things like this is also lacking. Where's the ambition?

Men from old Europe without a penny in their pocket went to America and became wealthy by taking initiative.

What i've suggested here is not outlandish at all. Get some organisational skills, line up some jobs, get some qualified men on them. You're the bossman, you're also qualified on paper and you tell them that actually you'll be giving them a lift as a mate but want them to do the lion's share of the work.

Where's the problem?

OP is qualified on paper. It's hardly a stretch to imagine he could start up a business and employ staff like thousands of people do but also jump on the tools himself.

Life is full of chances and "chancers"

If you believe you have the mindset, the ambition and the skills to make a go of it, then do so.

There will be hurdles to jump, problems to solve and sleepless nights worrying about things.

for me it has taken about 10 years to get from an ambitious person who wanted to make it work being self employed to someone who has managed to make a proper living out of it.

I went from a comfortable job at over 20K about 15 years ago to a poor self employed person overnight with a handful of contacts and enough work to see me through the week.

I can tell you that there have been tough times, like counting the coins i had in the cup holder to see if I could manage to buy a pack of chicken to do a stir fry or if it was 2 tins of beans and a loaf of bread.

dodging the council tax collector and the tv licence inspector whilst trying to figure out how to pay the most important bills that would keep me working like the van insurance and my suppliers bills.

Starting a business is easy, keeping it running is difficult, pulling a living wage from it in the first few months/years is bloody hard and can take years off your life.

I have managed, but many people fail, I could still fail in the future if I don't keep on top of it.

There are some rule of thumb figures that will help you out in deciding if it is right for you.

Have enough money in the bank to fund your lifestyle for 3 months with no other income before you take the leap into self employment.

I am not suggesting you will have no work for 3 months but at the beginning, outgoings WILL outstrip incomings.

If you are going to employ someone to work for you, have enough free cash to pay them for at least 2 months at any time.

the people who you employ (directly or as sub contactors) also have partners, children, bills etc. not being able to pay them may push them into hardship and it will (should) play heavily on your mind when you cant pay them in full or on time.

Do not ever let your insurance Lapse, the day you do is the day someone will be injured and it will make you bankrupt.

But the thing is, only you can tell if you have got what it takes to go it alone.
Best of luck in your adventure (genuinely)

 

[UNG]

You're basically saying to start a business and employ someone you also have to be an expert capable of doing the job yourself. Sorry but that's clearly nonsense.

I could put ads in the paper now - get some jobs in and just advertise for blokes and get them on any work that comes in. It's really fairly simple but imo some on this forum just love to be contrarian for the sake of it.

The extent of lateral thinking when it comes to things like this is also lacking. Where's the ambition?

Men from old Europe without a penny in their pocket went to America and became wealthy by taking initiative.

What i've suggested here is not outlandish at all. Get some organisational skills, line up some jobs, get some qualified men on them. You're the bossman, you're also qualified on paper and you tell them that actually you'll be giving them a lift as a mate but want them to do the lion's share of the work.

Where's the problem?

OP is qualified on paper. It's hardly a stretch to imagine he could start up a business and employ staff like thousands of people do but also jump on the tools himself.

And how much cash do you have or how large a loan / overdraft will the bank let you have to invest in your project

I have experience of a business startup exactly as you are suggesting as the skilled guy and unless you have a big bucket load of cash chances are the skilled guy ends up as I did owning 50% of the business after 3 - 4 months during which time 2 other electricians had been taken on and we were looking to take on another, the company had a large daywork contract from day 1 as well as a few other contracts for the electrics on some new build and refurb commercial properties so there was little or no dead time to cover

I think it would be difficult to do it now, we had a lot of work on the books at the start up and even then cashflow was very tight for the first few months and most days it was 12 -14 hours 7 days a week for the first 4 months

And to suggest my past comments are contrarian I find quite insulting when I have real world experience what you propose

"You're the bossman" has a certain arrogance about it which you clearly demonstrate on here, I think you would find it difficult to keep the good staff you would need to make it work

 

[ipf]

There's no rule that says i need to be an expert in electrics to start an electrical company. Someone who's just good at admin could do that, and employ someone who knows what they're talking about and pay them a wage to do the hands on stuff and pricing etc.

I had a friend who started a company outsourcing coding to bigger companies. He knew nothing about programming and simply hired people who did - he was just a businessman starting a business.

No reason you couldn't do that as the business owner and then also work in your own company as a mate.

It'd be a faff to set up but obviously it's doable.

I couldn't take being the 'boss' and having to ask an employee for advice about doing my job. It'd put me on the road to rack and ruin....?

 

[James]

I couldn't take being the 'boss' and having to ask an employee for advice about doing my job. It'd put me on the road to rack and ruin....?

Try marriage, it gives me excellent training in being the boss of the house but having to check that what i am doing is the right way to do it!!!

 

[timhoward]

Try marriage, it gives me excellent training in being the boss of the house but having to check that what i am doing is the right way to do it!!!

When I got married, we agreed I'd take the major decisions, and my lovely wife would take the minor decisions. It's worked brilliantly. In 21 years there haven't been any major decisions.

 

[Electrics]

"You're the bossman" has a certain arrogance about it which you clearly demonstrate on here, I think you would find it difficult to keep the good staff you would need to make it work

Nah, there's no arrogance from me. You're misunderstanding the tone which is understandable since it's text so hard to judge.

Also an FYI - i ran my own very successful general building company from age 17-29 before i moved to Europe, so i also know what i'm talking about.

 

[UNG]

Only in

Nah, there's no arrogance from me. You're misunderstanding the tone which is understandable since it's text so hard to judge.

People very rarely see and recognise their own arrogance

Also an FYI - i ran my own very successful general building company from age 17-29 before i moved to Europe, so i also know what i'm talking about.

So you closed it down and moved to Europe or was it not that successful

 

[rapparee]

So you closed it down and moved to Europe or was it not that successful

Jaysus

Low blow there

 

[SparkySy]

Blimy this thread was really good till the last few posts! Come on guys we are all supposed to be on the same team here! lets move on and get this back on track! I don't read these things for petty squabbling, I read them to further my knowledge and post to try and help the community, especially those who are just starting on their electrical journey!
Sy

 

[Electrics]

Only in

People very rarely see and recognise their own arrogance

So you closed it down and moved to Europe or was it not that successful

Wow bro you're incredibly bitter. Take a chill pill man, this is just a forum. Lighten up.

 

[LukeD]

But how much does someone need to learn to be an electrician, while the industry is vast it is all interconnected by wires of various sizes and there are a lot of common areas across all the sectors. I don't subscribe to the "I only want to do domestic so single phase 230v is enough for me" when a number of the larger domestic properties I have worked on had a 3 phase incomer. Then again a single phase incomer is derived from the 3 phase supply running down the street so how much do you really need to know and understand of this vast industry
The fact is these days the internet provides a crutch to prop up the lack of knowledge, training and experience

Do you really think that would work

I think a smart person could easily learn the basics in a year to be a domestic electrician . Just the right coursework /training .

 

[Dustydazzler]

My apprentice days were similar to what the OP talked about and I loved them day s, 2 weeks house bashing on a new site , then sent to a factory to help pull in big swa , then sent to a brand new office refit putting up tray and wiring up click roses to put up 200 panel lights . it was varied , it was testing and most importantly i went home knackered most days but always felt like i have learned something new. i had college 1 day a week and this was the old 2360-pt1-pt2.

i honestly loved every minute of those early days , i felt so luck i had a good mentors who actually let me have a go at things and not just left to sweep the floor

 

[nicebutdim]

My apprentice days were similar to what the OP talked about and I loved them day s, 2 weeks house bashing on a new site , then sent to a factory to help pull in big swa , then sent to a brand new office refit putting up tray and wiring up click roses to put up 200 panel lights . it was varied , it was testing and most importantly i went home knackered most days but always felt like i have learned something new. i had college 1 day a week and this was the old 2360-pt1-pt2.

i honestly loved every minute of those early days , i felt so luck i had a good mentors who actually let me have a go at things and not just left to sweep the floor

Other than not doing any domestic, this sounds like my own apprenticeship - continually learning and a huge variation in the type of work from day to day.

Couldn't have asked for better, but I'd like the day in college to be more challenging.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Other than not doing any domestic, this sounds like my own apprenticeship - continually learning and a huge variation in the type of work from day to day.

Couldn't have asked for better, but I'd like the day in college to be more challenging.

I found some parts of college quite a challenge as I was pretty new to the game when I started college and had limited site experience to call on the first new months , other than a few weeks here and there with my day who was also a factory sparks

What would be interesting would be to start a fresh apprenticeship now and see how it compared to 25 years ago

 

[nicebutdim]

I found some parts of college quite a challenge as I was pretty new to the game when I started college and had limited site experience to call on the first new months , other than a few weeks here and there with my day who was also a factory sparks

What would be interesting would be to start a fresh apprenticeship now and see how it compared to 25 years ago

Chances are I'll find a few aspects of it fairly challenging as time passes, but it all seems to move rather slowly at this point.

 

[UNG]

I think a smart person could easily learn the basics in a year to be a domestic electrician . Just the right coursework /training .

So a whole new can of worms opens up
How do you define a "smart person" then how do you overcome the discrimination that will cause when some don't make the grade as a smart person
If you only learn the "basics" would that not make you a "basic domestic electrician" and what training progression will be needed to progress from the basic level

At what point does the industry educate the public on how to choose an electrician when "I'm an electrician" could cover widely differing levels of knowledge and experience. I've been to a few faults over the last few years where the customers had engaged a number of electricians to find faults and been challenged with what makes you think you will find the fault when all the previous ones haven't, all faults found and then I get why couldn't they find them then you have to tell them what state the industry is in

It's all to easy to dilute the pool and before you realise it you have a lot of "electricians" and a lot of problems they can't solve

 

[James]

So a whole new can of worms opens up
How do you define a "smart person" then how do you overcome the discrimination that will cause when some don't make the grade as a smart person
If you only learn the "basics" would that not make you a "basic domestic electrician" and what training progression will be needed to progress from the basic level

At what point does the industry educate the public on how to choose an electrician when "I'm an electrician" could cover widely differing levels of knowledge and experience. I've been to a few faults over the last few years where the customers had engaged a number of electricians to find faults and been challenged with what makes you think you will find the fault when all the previous ones haven't, all faults found and then I get why couldn't they find them then you have to tell them what state the industry is in

It's all to easy to dilute the pool and before you realise it you have a lot of "electricians" and a lot of problems they can't solve

Most satisfying faults to find and fix are the ones where you get called in as the 2nd or 3rd “electrician “
often the opening conversation starts along the lines of, I doubt you can fix it because x others have tried and failed.
can be good fun to point out the fault, how you found it and what you did to fix it.
often you earn a customer for life and some A rated recommendations.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Most satisfying faults to find and fix are the ones where you get called in as the 2nd or 3rd “electrician “
often the opening conversation starts along the lines of, I doubt you can fix it because x others have tried and failed.
can be good fun to point out the fault, how you found it and what you did to fix it.
often you earn a customer for life and some A rated recommendations.

even better , video yourself doing the job and put it up on youtube

 

[timhoward]

I've been to a few faults over the last few years where the customers had engaged a number of electricians to find faults and been challenged with what makes you think you will find the fault when all the previous ones haven't, all faults found and then I get why couldn't they find them then you have to tell them what state the industry is in

Point taken, but to be completely honest I'm not sure even longer recognised training paths are brilliant at teaching fault finding. Testing and inspection seems to be taught in a sort of painting by numbers way, and if it goes off script many newly qualified people struggle. Some of the posts on this forum are ample evidence of this. I think real world experience is where people develop fault-finding skills.

There are always exceptions too - there's a lad near me that did a short course, but prior to that got an A grade in A level physics. As one might expect he's very good at fault finding.
My point is that the length of course might affect many things but fault finding seems to be something people are gifted at or not, and it might possibly be more about the person and their ability than the course they happen to do.
This doesn't detract from your general point that the public have no idea what they are actually getting when they seek a 'qualified electrician'.

 

[Lister1987]

Point taken, but to be completely honest I'm not sure even longer recognised training paths are brilliant at teaching fault finding. Testing and inspection seems to be taught in a sort of painting by numbers way, and if it goes off script many newly qualified people struggle. Some of the posts on this forum are ample evidence of this. I think real world experience is where people develop fault-finding skills.

There are always exceptions too - there's a lad near me that did a short course, but prior to that got an A grade in A level physics. As one might expect he's very good at fault finding.
My point is that the length of course might affect many things but fault finding seems to be something people are gifted at or not, and it might possibly be more about the person and their ability than the course they happen to do.
This doesn't detract from your general point that the public have no idea what they are actually getting when they seek a 'qualified electrician'.

Fault finding (much like that inspection element of Inspection and Testing) is something that can be taught fundamentaly but is honed and improved on over time; you have a basic start point (did any device trip, if so what device?, Is there continuity were there should be and inversely where there shouldn't be?, has the user done or changed anything recently? What has the weather been like...and so on) but improving on that and interpretating the answer comes over time.

Anyone can do testing, not everyone can do inspecting as 1 is 'simple' and thr other is complex.

 

[DPG]

Fault finding (much like that inspection element of Inspection and Testing) is something that can be taught fundamentaly but is honed and improved on over time; you have a basic start point (did any device trip, if so what device?, Is there continuity were there should be and inversely where there shouldn't be?, has the user done or changed anything recently? What has the weather been like...and so on) but improving on that and interpretating the answer comes over time.

Anyone can do testing, not everyone can do inspecting as 1 is 'simple' and thr other is complex.

I disagree. Some people seem to have their brain wired in a way that isn't suited to methodical fault-finding, regardless of whether it is an electrical problem or something entirely unrelated.

 

[UNG]

Fault finding (much like that inspection element of Inspection and Testing) is something that can be taught fundamentaly but is honed and improved on over time; you have a basic start point (did any device trip, if so what device?, Is there continuity were there should be and inversely where there shouldn't be?, has the user done or changed anything recently? What has the weather been like...and so on) but improving on that and interpretating the answer comes over time.

I think your post is flawed and demonstrates a lack of knowledge regarding real fault finding, to confuse fault finding with inspection and testing blurs the lines between working with known standards and ensuring compliance on a go no go basis and fault finding where the test values achieved need to be interpreted correctly to have any idea of what you are looking for

It is difficult to teach fault finding beyond the basic principles, over time you develop your own methods how long it takes to do that can vary, when you have the production manager on your back because many £000's are being lost every hour it focuses you quite quickly, after a few years experience especially if you are involved in PPM work then you can often see developing faults before they become a fault

While fault finding has a number of basic principles it also combines a number of other wider skills not least choosing the optimum type of test equipment for the fault you are trying to locate and then understanding and interpreting the readings it gives you.

I agree that asking the right questions at the right technical level that the customer can process is another skill as sometimes you have to lead the customer through the problem to track / locate / narrow down the fault

Anyone can do testing, not everyone can do inspecting as 1 is 'simple' and thr other is complex.

I think you are wrong, there is more to testing than pressing a button on an MFT and expecting to see the right numbers, with inspecting it is simple when you can see what you are inspecting but good inspection is finding the things hidden in cupboards and joints buried in walls / hidden in trunking

Most of my fault finding skills come from working across all the industry sectors and a lot crosses over from sector to sector my apprenticeship was more industrial and commercial based where spending a little bit of time with the machine wiring diagram can save quite a bit of time locating the fault

Fault finding is like lock picking the more experience you have the easier and quicker the process becomes the key at times is not over thinking the problem and use the KISS principle although at times moving away from the day to day test equipment can save a lot of time

 

[Lister1987]

I think your post is flawed and demonstrates a lack of knowledge regarding real fault finding, to confuse fault finding with inspection and testing blurs the lines between working with known standards and ensuring compliance on a go no go basis and fault finding where the test values achieved need to be interpreted correctly to have any idea of what you are looking for

It is difficult to teach fault finding beyond the basic principles, over time you develop your own methods how long it takes to do that can vary, when you have the production manager on your back because many £000's are being lost every hour it focuses you quite quickly, after a few years experience especially if you are involved in PPM work then you can often see developing faults before they become a fault

While fault finding has a number of basic principles it also combines a number of other wider skills not least choosing the optimum type of test equipment for the fault you are trying to locate and then understanding and interpreting the readings it gives you.

I agree that asking the right questions at the right technical level that the customer can process is another skill as sometimes you have to lead the customer through the problem to track / locate / narrow down the fault


I think you are wrong, there is more to testing than pressing a button on an MFT and expecting to see the right numbers, with inspecting it is simple when you can see what you are inspecting but good inspection is finding the things hidden in cupboards and joints buried in walls / hidden in trunking

Most of my fault finding skills come from working across all the industry sectors and a lot crosses over from sector to sector my apprenticeship was more industrial and commercial based where spending a little bit of time with the machine wiring diagram can save quite a bit of time locating the fault

Fault finding is like lock picking the more experience you have the easier and quicker the process becomes the key at times is not over thinking the problem and use the KISS principle although at times moving away from the day to day test equipment can save a lot of time

I don't disagree with most of that, I do disagree with me confusing inspection & testing Vs fault finding, I know they can be and often are very different beasts. I know with IV you HAVE to work sequencially whereas fault finding and EICR you wouldn't necessarily do all the tests, even in the right order.

You can teach the purpose and limitations of testing, you can teach fundamental basics of inspection & fault finding (otherwise what's the point in the 2391?), It takes time to hone technique there's no doubt about that. It takes the right mindset to do deeper (checking places where most wouldn't bother or jist LIM for an easy life), without that mindset and desire to go beyond the surface then it's just monkey press, monkey write and monkey get paid.

Anyone can press a button and write down a number, not everyone can interpret the results in a meaningful way (which is what I was trying to say).

I'm green and inexperienced there's no denying that but I like to think my understanding is where it should be. I'm wanting to improve and further myself so any shortcomings that may be evident from participation in this thread, please constructively point them out and guide me to better understanding.

 

[ipf]

I don't disagree with most of that, I do disagree with me confusing inspection & testing Vs fault finding, I know they can be and often are very different beasts. I know with IV you HAVE to work sequencially whereas fault finding and EICR you wouldn't necessarily do all the tests, even in the right order.
You can teach the purpose and limitations of testing, you can teach fundamental basics of inspection & fault finding (otherwise what's the point in the 2391?)
Anyone can press a button and write down a number, not everyone can interpret the results in a meaningful way (which is what I was trying to say).

That last paragraph sums it up.......from a 2391 point of view.

I've known blokes who wouldn't have much understanding of what 2391 entails......or what or where a sequence comes in to it...but they've known how to find a machine fault with a drawing in front of them or a wiring fault when something has gone wrong. Giving them a pen and paper asking for an essay explanation of what they've done would have been like handing them a blindfold.
Fault finding does cover a huge field and isn't always a case of 'by the book'.

 

[timhoward]

@Lister1987 I'm not really disagreeing, a couple of comments:

I know with IV you HAVE to work sequencially whereas fault finding and EICR you wouldn't necessarily do all the tests, even in the right order.

Even on an EICR doing IR tests as late as possible with everything back together is good practise, so if I've put an accessory screw through a conductor at a light switch or socket or caught something in a metal trunking cover it's picked up by the test. It's very embarrassing if a stupid mistake while carrying out T&I actually makes something worse!

You can teach the purpose and limitations of testing, you can teach fundamental basics of inspection & fault finding (otherwise what's the point in the 2391?)...

Tracking down faults requires skills and thinking processes that are simply not taught as far as I can tell..
A real life EICR example from this year....IR testing an older CU with an RCD main switch.
Circuit 1, L+N bar to cpc bar is 80 Mohm (pass)
Circuit 2, L+N bar to cpc bar is 40 Mohms (pass)
Circuits 3-7, L+N bar to cpc bar is 0 Mohms.
Circuit 1 again, L+N bar to cpc bar is now 0 ohms.
Circuit 2 again, L+N bar to cpc bar is now 0 ohms.
Does anything you learn at college help you know what to do next? At this point no circuit can be turned on without tripping the RCD, and the tenant is getting cold. I'm sure a lot of the members on here would know exactly what to do next but would an average newly-qualified person who has just passed 2391-52?

Anyone can press a button and write down a number, not everyone can interpret the results in a meaningful way (which is what I was trying to say).

Agreed.

 

[brianmoooore]

where spending a little bit of time with the machine wiring diagram can save quite a bit of time locating the fault

Until, after an hour or so of head scratching and doubting yourself, you realise that the relevant part bears little resemblance to what's in front of you.