Non-Harmonized cable in Enclosure

[Charlie_]

Thanks Charlie, I spoke to the NICEIC this morning and their technical adviser said that it was OK but I have to sleeve each of the cable with Blue or Brown sleeve to indicate use, if I had to do that I might as well rebuild the setup, it would only by 4 or 5 hours work but a pain in the arse to do.
All cables have been individually numbered, what do you think of the install below, should I re-do it or not bother. Fancy a trip down to North Essex to commission it?

You should definitely redo the whole thing..
The layout is completely wrong.
Do away with the fuses on the outgoing circuits from the dimmers.
Each output is rated at 1 amp this does not mean you need a 1amp fuse.
You need to think about how all the outgoing circuits are going to be dressed in and terminated.
What you need are the WAGO 2002-2201 double deck terminations.
This will allow the outgoing live and neutrals to be terminated on top of one another.
Get this right now you will avoid a disaster in a few months time
If I can manage to upload them I will post some photos of the panels I've done here.

 

[dellboy13]

Hi Charlie_
The CBUS states that each output needs to be protected by either a MCB or fuse for the protection of the unit. The integrator that I meet in London said he uses and I should use

but I decided against these has I thought it would mean the T&E coming in would be very dense along the bottom of the unit. When I spoke to the integrator about this he then advised me then to go for 3 separate terminators which will spread out the incoming cables.

The incoming circuit were going to be feed in from the bottom, the cables for the top row would go behind the lower row (the din rails have just under 2 1/2" of clear space behind). The incoming feeds were going to be taken down 4" trunking to the left hand side and long the bottom in the same trunking.

PS, If I want to upload photos for a forum I normally load them onto Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and the site give you URLs to copy and paste for forums.

 

[Charlie_]

The information you have been given is incorrect.
You only need to protect the incoming side of the dimmers.
The way I usually do this is an MCB or RCBO supplying the dimmer which is then linked to the input of each channel or you could also take a seperate supply to each channel input from its own MCB/RCBO..
Each channel of the dimmer unit incorporates short circuit cut- out protection against installation wiring faults, lamp failure, and excessive loading. If a cut-out condition occurs, the channel is automatically reset if the fault/overload is cleared within a few seconds — otherwise the channel is latched off, and a reset occurs once a channel is toggled OFF and ON.

On the panels I have wired all the dimmers, relays, etc are located at the bottom with the outgoing slices all located towards the top which allows all outgoing circuitry to be nearly dressed in from the top..

Will try and have a go at the photo upload to give you some examples

 

[Charlie_]

 

[davesparks]

The information you have been given is incorrect.
You only need to protect the incoming side of the dimmers.
The way I usually do this is an MCB or RCBO supplying the dimmer which is then linked to the input of each channel or you could also take a seperate supply to each channel input from its own MCB/RCBO..
Each channel of the dimmer unit incorporates short circuit cut- out protection against installation wiring faults, lamp failure, and excessive loading. If a cut-out condition occurs, the channel is automatically reset if the fault/overload is cleared within a few seconds — otherwise the channel is latched off, and a reset occurs once a channel is toggled OFF and ON.

On the panels I have wired all the dimmers, relays, etc are located at the bottom with the outgoing slices all located towards the top which allows all outgoing circuitry to be nearly dressed in from the top..

Will try and have a go at the photo upload to give you some examples

On all of the multiple channel dimmers I have installed each channel has it's own MCB covering that output, the incoming is protected at the DB or switchfuse feeding it.

On the dimmers I normally install all of the output terminals are in a row running up the centre of the unit with the dimmer modules spread throughout the whole enclosure.

My point: just because you have only installed dimmers with one protection arrangement or terminal layout it does not mean that every dimmer must be made the same!

 

[Charlie_]

On all of the multiple channel dimmers I have installed each channel has it's own MCB covering that output, the incoming is protected at the DB or switchfuse feeding it.

Why?? What make of dimmer unit?

On the dimmers I normally install all of the output terminals are in a row running up the centre of the unit with the dimmer modules spread throughout the whole enclosure.

Sounds messy. Where do you locate your neutral and earths?

My point: just because you have only installed dimmers with one protection arrangement or terminal layout it does not mean that every dimmer must be made the same!

No need to shout!
I'm not saying they must be made the same.
i am just explaining a better way of doing things and highlighting what is not necessary.
I have installed many C-Bus systems as well as KNX systems so I am fully aware of the different types.

 

[dellboy13]

I'm now confused, this is take out of the installation training manual from Clipsal

4.1.2 Output side of C-Bus output unit
To protect the C-Bus dimmer unit and meet the safety requirements of IEC60669-2-1, a MCB should be installed in each output channel (as in Figure 3 & Figure 4).

If I do not install the units as per Clipsal documentation, this would not invalidate the warranty? - A question not a statement!

I obviously understand that the fuse would not protect against short circuit but it would protect from overload!

 

[spark 68]

No need to shout!
I'm not saying they must be made the same.
i am just explaining a better way of doing things and highlighting what is not necessary.
I have installed many C-Bus systems as well as KNX systems so I am fully aware of the different types.

I didn't think Dave was Shouting Charlie, he is making a valid point though, you cannot really make a sweeping statement that the OP is doing it wrong, the manufacturer has told the OP what they want, whilst he does not have to follow their recommendation it may affect any warranty or cause other problems down the line if he does not take their advice into consideration.

I would be more interested to see if the manufacturer had drawn up any design guides for the panels and/or offered any type testing data, and what, if any, mandatory testing needs to be done on the panels.
Does the manufacturer offer any pre-built panels presumably already certified and type tested ?

 

[dellboy13]

I have contacted Clipsal and had a very brief chat, yes there should be overload protection on the outputs as per their install manual. The reasoning being that an electrician could install and sign off a build with say 40w bulbs and 3 months down the line the owner would change all the the bulbs for 100w bulbs and knacker the dimmer unit, leaving the owner to foot the bill.
They also said that if a MCB was used an electrician would have the ability to isolate a single output from a dimmer unit and work on it without having to knock off all 8 channels of a dimmer unit or 12 channels of a relay unit to work one one single fitting.

 

[Charlie_]

Yes I appreciate what you are saying and I'm aware of Clipsal UK requirements but they are not necessary as the units have integral overload protection and also protection is afforded by the supply MCB's.
Ive serviced Clipsal equipment for many years, in the UK and AUS..
The majority of installers do not fit output fuses as they know this is pointless.
I have yet to come across a blown unit due to overload..
The dimmers themselves should be IEC compliant we don't need to make them compliant by other means.

If somebody puts larger lamps in then they can also easily install larger fuses.
It is then down to the integral protection of the dimmer to kick in.

 

[DPG]

I know nothing about these systems, but surely if the manf. stipulates to use MCBs on the outputs then it should be done? Daz