Testing Mains Heat Alarms? Small fire with no trigger!

[Joe S]

I have had an elderly customer who has recently had a small fire in her Kitchen from a pan. Her daughter has contacted me to ask why the alarms didn't go off. I have since been in contact with the manufacturer of the Alarms and their response was ' the button test is sufficient and no other method should used due to possible damage to the detector'. I had tested the alarms upon handover after a full rewire to find all alarms triggering as per normal. The issue I have is that I have now lost a little faith in the alarms as they didn't go off when needed. Anybody else have any issues similar to this?

Thanks alot

Joe

 

[Pete999]

I have had an elderly customer who has recently had a small fire in her Kitchen from a pan. Her daughter has contacted me to ask why the alarms didn't go off. I have since been in contact with the manufacturer of the Alarms and their response was ' the button test is sufficient and no other method should used due to possible damage to the detector'. I had tested the alarms upon handover after a full rewire to find all alarms triggering as per normal. The issue I have is that I have now lost a little faith in the alarms as they didn't go off when needed. Anybody else have any issues similar to this?

Thanks alot

Joe

Where were the heat alarms situated?

 

[Joe S]

Where were the smokes situated?

The Heat is in the Kitchen between the oven and hob, the Optical is in the hallway. It's a 2 bed bungalow so not a big place.

 

[LankyWill]

what brand?

 

[Joe S]

what brand?

Aico. Never had issues before and they replied straight away when I contacted them direct. I'm just not happy with the reply tbh.

 

[amlu]

lots of fire and smoke produced on burning pan, but good ventilation and no much heat to be picked by the alarm...
give it bit of grilling with a heat gun to be sure.

 

[ruston]

That's the answer in their booklet too for testing their detectors.

 

[Joe S]

lots of fire and smoke produced on burning pan, but good ventilation and no much heat to be picked by the alarm...
give it bit of grilling with a heat gun to be sure.

I thought about using a heat gun but they have assured me not to. They have also recommended to not use artificial smoke spray for the other alarms and that button tests are ok for them aswell?!

 

[Joe S]

That's the answer in their booklet too for testing their detectors.

What answer? Heat Gun?

 

[Joe S]

This is what they emailed me today:

 

[ruston]

What answer? Heat Gun?

No, the test button.

 

[Joe S]

No, the test button.

I dont feel that this is enough especially as I have had a fire on a job where the alarms didn't sound. She is elderly and forgot about the pan. Next time she might not be so lucky!

 

[GMES]

I've always considered Aico a quality make and have always used them, but this is food for thought.

 

[ruston]

I can not open your attachment.

 

[Joe S]

I've always considered Aico a quality make and have always used them, but this is food for thought.

You and me both mate. I have used them for years and love the Radio link bases etc.. but this has swayed me a bit.

 

[amlu]

You and me both mate. I have used them for years and love the Radio link bases etc.. but this has swayed me a bit.

kiddie for me.
customer brought some cheapish BRK from screwfix on recent job, nasty stuff not recommended.

 

[GMES]

I can't see an attachment joe for the email.

 

[Joe S]

I can't seem to get the attachment on here for love nor money. I've tried copy and paste, loading it into photo bucket and even screen dumping my phone as a picture but it can't see the image???

 

[tazz]

The Aico meet all relevant standards.....but like any fire, smoke and heat never act the same.
Testing any detector by button alone does not help..then need to be checked correctly by an approved kit such as Solo, using smoke cans, and hot air testers.
With Acio, the heat detector will not activate until 58 degs C which is quite high for a heat detector, most Pro are set at 50 degs.
Air circulation, rate of heat, drafts and positioning can all have issues on how quick a detector will respond.
Now a burning pan, is not going to instantly heat a kitchen to 58 degs, it will take time, And i would expect a heat detector to take at least 10 to 15mins @ 2m to pick this up, please remember at this this time it is confined fire in a pan ...not a spreading fire, so heat is confined to on place only. If the heat was below 58 deg, but smoke was being produce at high level, then any optical detector within a circulation area eg hallway would have activated.

 

[Joe S]

I agree with you Taz but the fact that Aico say don't test with anything other than the button has got me worried now. What other alarms are available that allow testing with button and secondary items such as smoke/ heat?

 

[bigspark17]

I love aico think theyre a quality brand, im not a big fan of heat detectors i find well position smoke detectors far more reliable.. The heat and time needed to set a heat detector off is worrying alot of damage can be done in that time, whereas a smoke detector will pick up far quicker! There is no requirement of a heat in kitchen. I would almost always put it an adjacent utility room

 

[tazz]

Well this is just rubbish.....the detector may be faulty, but hey the test buttons works. This is why I worry about electricians taking on fire safety, without test equipment. The only way to test detectors is to mimic the real thing...smoke & heat.
Have proved this point a few times to BC, and in the end up saying sod it, tin can out with a 10mg smoke bombs in it, stating there you go 100 cu foot of smoke, and the system don`t work.
Where abouts are you in London?

 

[Joe S]

Thats fair enough Tazz but as per the regs we must follow manufacturer instructions and guidelines. I think it is all too vague and all alarms need to be tested in the same controlled manner in order to have an idea of which ones are better.

 

[tazz]

All HMO and house we test are done with solo smoke and heat test equipment, and found a few not working, due to paint and dust

 

[Joe S]

All HMO and house we test are done with solo smoke and heat test equipment, and found a few not working, due to paint and dust

What are the better test rigs so that I can at least have piece of mind in future testing?

 

[Simlec]

What are the better test rigs so that I can at least have piece of mind in future testing?

Welcome to Solo Detector Testers*

 

[tazz]

If your worried pm me and I will test installation for you. I always crossing the M23 on my travels.

 

[UNG]

There seems to be some jumping to conclusions here and a distinct lack of facts in the OP. As with a lot cases like this the customer or someone related to the customer exaggerates what actually happened and is looking for a scapegoat.
It is difficult once the incident has passed to get any coherent first hand information unless the fire brigade were called and their incident report indicates that the fire detection equipment should have triggered but failed for whatever reason
Before dissing any specific manufacturers equipment I think it would be prudent to see some actual evidence that this fire was of sufficient size and intensity and Aico's fire detection equipment failed to operate.
We can all fly off the handle and jump to conclusions based on a customers rant so can we have a few more hard facts from the OP first

 

[tazz]

I would not disagree with you there, customers have a tend to stretch the truth some what....But brings me back to commissioning & testing, You are testing a piece of life saving equipment as near as it would operate in a fire condition...You are not testing if a push button works.

 

[marc8]

Hi All
Had similar issue about 4 years ago kitchen bacon in pan wife on the phone & it caught lite & up ceiling Black smoke & the kitchen heat about 2.5 meters away happy as a sand boy picked up on an old battery detector in the old hallway.
alarm sounded customer returned & found the blaze, due to size of kitchen & the amount of ventilation did not set it off. I would always now looking at placing a heat detector within 2 meters of the Hob after that.
also on another note should you take any testing of smoke alarms or heat detectors in a domestic property other than that stipulated by the manufacturer then you have voided all warranties with the units as it is recommended testing by them.
i agree not best practice but have to go with what they say.
with regard to the previous about the fire from the frying pan, when speaking with the client as he had 2 staircases & 2 hallways I offered to put in another detector in the downstairs corridor as we weren't working in that part of the building on the new extension & he refused because of costs associated with installing, this was a large house with kids & I said i would put a linked unit in but he insisted on his old battery one, at least it worked.
same thing with old consumer unit asked to price upgrade & told to expensive so we installed ours with RCBO'S each circuit & left his old ****e alone. some people you can't tell until that happens then guess what ......... can you install another alarm for me.