Use of tie wraps and bunching conductors in DB's

[telectrix]

Morning fella,i did not say bunching could not generate problems,i never mentioned overlooking any regulations,or hinted at grouping factors being fun...

...and,talking as i was,regarding a domestic setting,i thought my analogy drawing similarities between groups of conductors being tightly constrained every 400mm by either a tie,or a notch,was a fair conclusion.

Having said that,to continue the debate,as permitted...i do concur with the bulk of your assertions :yes:

May i ask your honor for a short recess,whilst i consult my 15th Edition.

corrected that for you

 

[Guest77]

It is like walking on broken glass here now, appalling, give me watching paint dry anytime over this egg shell tip toeing.

 

[Guest77]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

I feel you have done nothing wrong in this thread, so grow a pair and get your chin up.

 

[Guest77]

The OP asked a question and got several answers, in the real world when on site he/she will get a bit of stick, now that is banter, nearly all people who work on site get stick, they usually laugh it off, it makes them the men and women they are, it makes them tradespersons, it is what we do, it is life, they ask questions here and usually get answers, one or two may contain banter, get over it foxx, now UK sparks asked a question about the right coloured Regs book, the fact is it was irrelvent to the question but I and others knew what he meant and why he asked it, calm down there, report the post to a mod if it has upset you that much, UK sparks may get a ban, you and the other sensitive folk here can then talk about knitting on your own.

 

[davesparks]

I see nothing wrong with working to the red book!

 

[CT13]

Easy folks don't get bent out of shape over this. My shoulders are broad enough to take a little bit of over zealous scrutiny on an Internet discussion forum. As MDJ says and I think we all know, on site you have to give and take a bit and that's about it . (Even if we're not actually on site here I'll still accept that analogy)

Would it be a slightly different scenario to question someone's work ethic and competency face to face in the real word ? Maybe. Thankfully it's not really happened to me yet.

As for dredging up a comment I made here in 2009 and suggesting that I have something to hide... Hmm... He probably wasn't on a scheme....The LABC thing ... I chuckled that off in exactly the same way I do banta on site.

Thanks to the people who replied to the question in the true spirit that forum was probably originally intended for, to help share and inform !

 

[malcolmsanford]

CT13 (Are you a Kent man!!!!)

Bottom line there is nothing stopping you ty-rapping your cables together if you want to, and as long as you are happy that there is no degradation of the current carrying capacity you ty rap as your heart is content.

Ty rapping is a modern thing, I would have had my back side rimmed if I ty-ed cable together, but now a days circuits are tapped together in trunking runs which was in my time a no no.

It is just another modern trend, same as running CPCs in metal conduit and trunking, and if that is the way of things then go for it.

 

[uksparks]

I was not trying to cause an argument not cause offence, CT13 mentioned he couldn't find his answer in an old regs book and I just wanted a little clarity as to if he owned a current regs book be if green or yellow and if not, why he is working as an electrician working from an old book which is out if date and missing a lot of very important changes.

CT13, sorry if I got your back up, but I am sure you can understand why I asked, you don't need to justify why you do or don't have a full regs book that's current to me.

I and everyone else who cares would expect every electrician be t a Electrical Trainee or a time served spark to be working from the latest book and not an old one with incorrect information in it.

 

[CT13]

Ha no, not a Kent man !

To be honest I'm not a fan of using them and would agree with what people have said above where they may even be detrimental if misused.

I think it has been established now that there was not anything specifically included in any of the 17th edition amendments and just good sense that had been around for a lot longer !

In looking at attending 3rd amendment refresher so will report back if anything comes up there although I seriously doubt it.

I shall be having talks with my pesky workmate who started all this..

 

[Darkwood]

@CT13 - I initially pulled you up and asked about your regulations because of how you worded the opening post that suggested in its context that you were unaware or had access to ammendments for the last several years - you answered and I replied ...end of thread moves on.
-Glad to hear you have broad shoulders as this is exactly the question I would ask if you worked for me... any of my apprentices who were doing work to old regulations books without been aware of new amendments would be taken off site until I was confident they knew of any amendment that would influence their work, yes not everyone can afford the constant barage of new books but if they ask I was happy to lend my copy so they could makes notes and catch up.

@Silvafoxx - The OP supplied the info (more than he had to) that left the question to be asked, its not self righteous or been up our own arses to ask the question, if an Electrician suggested he was several years out of date which the OP implied then the question needs asking to clarify, it wasn't done accusationally or with a snide comment. If you took someone on at work and he implied he was not up to date then you would question him to satisfy and justify that you were going to take him on and pay him the going rate... Yes the forum has had a stigma attached to it and a lot of bullying and trolling comments were the norm' ... this has changed a lot over the last month and many regular and high profile names are banned for it, the thread has been perused by the mods and they have let it carry on (see GMES post) ... Hopefully abuse has stopped but its not going to stop a legitimate question being asked when it has relevence to the thread....I don't dish abuse out but I also don't tiptoe around people for fear they may not like what I ask or put. The OP has the option to report any post and this is how it works now - your post helps no-one and is IMHO the post that doesn't belong - if you have issue you have three choices
1 - ignore
2 - report the post yourself
3 - post a small comment to the OP that the report button exist although a PM would be more suitable than creating an abrasive attack on other members which is neither helpful or constructive ... take your own advice and use the report button if you do not like a post.

I have no issue with you Silvafoxx and nice to see you back but there has been a lot of changes and this also applies to the type of post you did too.

I think now this thread has done its course, the OP has the info he needed and with his agreement the thread needs closing as its just going to loop around on itself addressing the same issue over and over.

 

[GMES]

Silva.foxx I have deleted your post because if I had edited the swearing out etc, the post would not have made much sense by the time I had finished with it.
The thread is back on track now and the op hasn't reported it so please let's move on.
Has far as I'm concerned the questions regarding being up to current regs was a valid question by the guys.

 

[CT13]

Has far as I'm concerned the questions regarding being up to current regs was a valid question by the guys.

True, my wording was clumsy which left it wide open to the scrutiny which received.

If whoever is moderating here wishes to lock the thread down then pleased do so.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Not a very good picture but I have just been on site and took this. As you can see cable ties are prevalent out here.

I have tried to stop it but it is really a culturally thing as well, so we let it go because all lighting circuits are 2.5mm and power 4mm

Oh also ignore colours, colours are designated by whatever the supplier has on stock, something else over here you just have to walk away from

 

[GMES]

True, my wording was clumsy which left it wide open to the scrutiny which received.

If whoever is moderating here wishes to lock the thread down then pleased do so.

That would be me at the minute, If you request it I will close the thread but if you wish to continue with it that's fine also.
The good thing sometimes with leaving threads running is that more people offer their opinions which give you a more balanced opinion on your question.
It's your choice mate!!

 

[telectrix]

That would be me at the minute, If you request it I will close the thread but if you wish to continue with it that's fine also.
The good thing sometimes with leaving threads running is that more people offer their opinions which give you a more balanced opinion on your question.
It's your choice mate!!

so if you're busy moderating, we can mosey off down to the forest and set some gorilla traps.:38:

 

[Guest77]

True, my wording was clumsy which left it wide open to the scrutiny which received.

If whoever is moderating here wishes to lock the thread down then pleased do so.

Why on earth would you want it closed? you can bunch your cables if you like as mentioned a couple of times, thereis no issue really, some folk hate it though and some employers would not be happy if it was done, some wouldn't care, this site is for opinions, you will get several thats why it needs to stay open, regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

 

[GMES]

so if you're busy moderating, we can mosey off down to the forest and set some gorilla traps.:38:

You wouldn't do that to me would you Tel!!

Why on earth would you want it closed? you can bunch your cables if you like as mentioned a couple of times, thereis no issue really, some folk hate it though and some employers would not be happy if it was done, some wouldn't care, this site is for opinions, you will get several thats why it needs to stay open, regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

Jealousy will get you nowhere Mike

 

[CT13]

Why on earth would you want it closed? you can bunch your cables if you like as mentioned a couple of times, thereis no issue really, some folk hate it though and some employers would not be happy if it was done, some wouldn't care, this site is for opinions, you will get several thats why it needs to stay open, regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

Didn't some else say it should be locked down ?

I don't mind either way.

 

[GMES]

Didn't some else say it should be locked down ?

I don't mind either way.

It doesn't matter if someone else said it mate, if you want it leaving open then that's all that matters. I will leave it running unless I hear otherwise from you.

 

[CT13]

That's fine by me, thanks. Leaving it open that is.

 

[Darkwood]

I only mentioned closing it as it kept going in circles regarding the questioning of the OP... thats dealt with now and no issue with it staying open if we are not revisiting the same old ground...

As for the tiewrap issue it is not really an issue domestic or even commercial or industrial light circuit demand but where you get heavy loading on installs especially industrial it would be considered a no-no to bunch and tiewrap cables together in such a uncalculated manor, everything from derating factors to mcb's rating etc all start been crucial to design when you are getting larger installs... believe you me that there are those that don't even realise mcb's may need grouping factors applied when running close to rating for long durations...

Tiewraps are acceptable but it is circumstancial and to ensure you are on the correct side of the situation then cable calcs is what should be applicable and not because it makes the job look neater. If you have ever removed a failed or warm breaker and noticed a circular heat damaged patch on the side then this is often to do with poor design and not mcb issues...same principle different context.

 

[CT13]

If you have ever removed a failed or warm breaker and noticed a circular heat damaged patch on the side then this is often to do with poor design and not mcb issues...same principle different context.

That's an interesting point.

 

[silva.foxx]

regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

Certainly not in with the mods... the language was slight... even my church-going nan wouldn't have slapped me down for it. Speak up and you get muted!

 

[Leesparkykent]

CT13 (Are you a Kent man!!!!)

Bottom line there is nothing stopping you ty-rapping your cables together if you want to, and as long as you are happy that there is no degradation of the current carrying capacity you ty rap as your heart is content.

Ty rapping is a modern thing, I would have had my back side rimmed if I ty-ed cable together, but now a days circuits are tapped together in trunking runs which was in my time a no no.

It is just another modern trend, same as running CPCs in metal conduit and trunking, and if that is the way of things then go for it.

I thought the same from the name CT13 lol.

 

[CT13]

Obviously a Kent postcode then !

 

[cliffed]

NICEIC don't like it,that's for sure,but the bunching of cabling & the calculation that takes place to calculate the size of cable,are for circuits for that installation,it is not at the distribution board end,& if done practically cable ties are not an issue.It does tidy things up a bit,& like most control panel wiring cable ties are used.
Cheers

 

[davesparks]

NICEIC don't like it,that's for sure,but the bunching of cabling & the calculation that takes place to calculate the size of cable,are for circuits for that installation,it is not at the distribution board end,& if done practically cable ties are not an issue.It does tidy things up a bit,& like most control panel wiring cable ties are used.
Cheers

The calculations apply to the whole length of the cable, you can't just ignore the first 3' of cable!

 

[Darkwood]

NICEIC don't like it,that's for sure,but the bunching of cabling & the calculation that takes place to calculate the size of cable,are for circuits for that installation,it is not at the distribution board end,& if done practically cable ties are not an issue.It does tidy things up a bit,& like most control panel wiring cable ties are used.
Cheers

Control panels are a different concept as most of the wiring has negligible load as they are just signal cables and tbh if a control panel is done correctly there is little need for any tie wraps as slotted trunking and cable banding is often used, and yes where the power cables are run and supplies to motors, heaters etc and other loads then the rules still apply although we are getting out of the BS7671 area here tbh.

 

[shanky887614]

Control panels are a different concept as most of the wiring has negligible load as they are just signal cables and tbh if a control panel is done correctly there is little need for any tie wraps as slotted trunking and cable banding is often used, and yes where the power cables are run and supplies to motors, heaters etc and other loads then the rules still apply although we are getting out of the BS7671 area here tbh.

to add to what dw is saying, we wire a seperate cable to each temp sensor and they draw something like 200ma so sfa when .75 cable is normally used.

most proper control panels use panel trunking so no tywraps would be anywhere near it, door access panels are a different beast, your lucky if you can close the door on some panels you stumble across

 

[Pete999]

Don't think there is a Regulation saying "thou shall not use tie wraps in a CU" but if you think about it there is, or could be a problem with overheating, especially on heavy loaded circuits, in my opinion it's a no no, looks nice but think of the problems doing this could cause. And then you have the problem with testing, trying to identify conductors all neatly tie wrapped up, uugh