Why do commercial sparks bash house bashers?

[Electrics]

I've just started an apprenticeship with a decent sized firm (I got taken on full time - hooray!) and was thinking this week about how a lot of people, mostly online, turn their nose up at people who do domestic work.

I was wondering why, since at my work everybody seems to do the bare minimum but with most decent domestic sparks i know, they tend to go the extra mile.

Is there a difference in quality of workmanship simply because people want to do a better job for their own customers as opposed to commercial sparks who are simply getting the job done and aren't personally responsible for the final job?

Just seems to be a lot more 'just get it done' mentality on the commercial side.

Another thing i noticed is hardly anyone has the correct tools for the job and the tools they do have are mashed up.

So people will be using blunt cutters where the tip of one side has shattered off, or drivers with half the shaft insulation hanging off. Then there are other things which not bad but just 'doing it the hard way' like cutting PVC conduit with a hack saw having 3m of it flapping about instead of just buying a £10 pipe cutter, or using hammer and chisel/pad saw to cut out for back boxes where the wall is double skinned chipboard/plasterboard because nobody has a multi tool. Putting up conduit? Simply measure out from some maybe straight maybe wonky reference point and use your 6 inch torpedo level to get it right, instead of simply using a proper spirit level, making the job ten times easier.

When in the domestic setting it seems most people have the basic tools that make life easier.

Is it simply a case of 'not my job, don't care that much' on site compared with running private jobs directly in people's homes?

 

[ipf]

Was thinking more from a fault finding perspective. Cables aren't easily accessible in domestic situations, and DIY bodges more common, so my thinking is that fault finding is more reliant on testing.

I could be wrong, but those are my inexperienced thoughts.

But the big question is how many CAN fault find......and to what degree.
No matter what field, sometimes it's basically the same constant of splitting into sections
and a process of elimination.
But there are those who can follow a schematic, those who can't and those who can design and adapt them.

I feel that knowledge and experience in all fields is for the true electrician.

 

[Electrics]

Was thinking more from a fault finding perspective. Cables aren't easily accessible in domestic situations, and DIY bodges more common, so my thinking is that fault finding is more reliant on testing.

I could be wrong, but those are my inexperienced thoughts.

Sounds like a reasonable point to me to be fair mate.

 

[ipf]

over the years, I've found that with industrial and commercial faults, it's generally failure of cables and/or equipment. with domestics it's more likely to find humam/moron intervention is the cause.

Mind you, you can't allow for not being able to bend conduit because the previous 'maintenance electrician' has painted the conduit bending blocks with bright blue enamel paint, as I found in one large factory, years back admittedly.

 

[telectrix]

fault finding requires a certain way of thinking. not all sparks have this aptitude. even the best installers can be fazed with a N-E fault. all down to basic training. not obtained on a 5 week crash installer course, as niceic are now realising the error of their money grabbing ways over the last 10 years. time they put some back on the kitty for some re-education courses.

 

[telectrix]

Mind you, you can't allow for not being able to bend conduit because the previous 'maintenance electrician' has painted the conduit bending blocks with bright blue enamel paint, as I found in one large factory, years back admittedly.

monkeys get everwhere .

 

[nicebutdim]

But the big question is how many CAN fault find......and to what degree.
No matter what field, sometimes it's basically the same constant of splitting into sections
and a process of elimination.
But there are those who can follow a schematic, those who can't and those who can design and adapt them.

I feel that knowledge and experience in all fields is for the true electrician.

I raised this point as it seems to be one area where apprentices working in commercial/industrial settings might gain less experience than those working solely on domestic installations.

Seeing a number of electricians struggle with fault finding was one of the main factors that drove my desire to retrain and I want to make the most of every opportunity to learn all possible tricks from the fault finders handbook.

 

[MoserV8]

Probably more of a struggle for them to fulfill some of the requirements.

Maybe I'll get shot down for this, but it's quite likely that guys working on domestic installations will have a significant advantage when it comes to testing.

I would have to disagree there? Every Commercial & Industrial Job requires testing and Certificates handing in, in-fact the testing is more involved in an industrial/commercial environment, I frequently do work in schools and no stone goes unturned & certificates are allways handed in. Test & Inspecting factories can be a complex & lengthy procedure. Im not knocking Domestic Electricians at all, Ive seen some tremendously skilled ones who have completed rewires in occupied houses and got cables only where i could dream! With minimal disturbances to residents LOLS.

 

[telectrix]

I would have to disagree there? Every Commercial & Industrial Job requires testing and Certificates handing in, in-fact the testing is more involved in an industrial/commercial environment, I frequently do work in schools and no stone goes unturned & certificates are allways handed in. Test & Inspecting factories can be a complex & lengthy procedure. Im not knocking Domestic Electricians at all, Ive seen some tremendously skilled ones who have completed rewires in occupied houses and got cables only where i could dream! With minimal disturbances to residents LOLS.

although i agree with you on principal, most industrial sparks have the design done, they then install as per spec. (tray/cable/fixings/etc/) and rthen a higher pay grade does the testing/certifying.

 

[MoserV8]

What it will also do is make putting together your portfolio much easier.

Thankfully, i've been put under the commercial industrial side. I've had one small job in someone's house but that's it.

I already know basically how to do domestic for most things single phase like sockets, lights, radials etc so i'm glad to be on the commercial side getting the experience there. I think it's much easier for a commercial industrial spark to walk into a house than the other way round. I really don't see how someone who has only ever done single phase domestic installs can walk into something with dozens of sub boards with a supply in the kVs.

Thats Great News for you gaining experience, it will definitely help with your portfolio and future. The more systems you can gain experience in the better, it really will help with your future. It can be tough going as there is alot to learn. Invest in good tools, and keep a good thirst for knowledge (as well as a few beers!) and in a few years the world will be your Oyster! Dont worry about working with the KVs - thats a whole different ball game, you wont need to ever touch that.

 

[Keyspark01]

I've just started an apprenticeship with a decent sized firm (I got taken on full time - hooray!) and was thinking this week about how a lot of people, mostly online, turn their nose up at people who do domestic work.

I was wondering why, since at my work everybody seems to do the bare minimum but with most decent domestic sparks i know, they tend to go the extra mile.

Is there a difference in quality of workmanship simply because people want to do a better job for their own customers as opposed to commercial sparks who are simply getting the job done and aren't personally responsible for the final job?

Just seems to be a lot more 'just get it done' mentality on the commercial side.

Another thing i noticed is hardly anyone has the correct tools for the job and the tools they do have are mashed up.

So people will be using blunt cutters where the tip of one side has shattered off, or drivers with half the shaft insulation hanging off. Then there are other things which not bad but just 'doing it the hard way' like cutting PVC conduit with a hack saw having 3m of it flapping about instead of just buying a £10 pipe cutter, or using hammer and chisel/pad saw to cut out for back boxes where the wall is double skinned chipboard/plasterboard because nobody has a multi tool. Putting up conduit? Simply measure out from some maybe straight maybe wonky reference point and use your 6 inch torpedo level to get it right, instead of simply using a proper spirit level, making the job ten times easier.

When in the domestic setting it seems most people have the basic tools that make life easier.

Is it simply a case of 'not my job, don't care that much' on site compared with running private jobs directly in people's homes?

Cause house bashers aren't normally sparks. They are pretend sparks. No Qualifications except they can get it passed off by a spark. Checked and tested. Bring a house basher to an industrial job. Like tray and basket and see how they fair. What about doing a three phase board.
I bet if a piece of unistrut hit they wouldn't know what it was.

 

[telectrix]

Cause house bashers aren't normally sparks. They are pretend sparks. No Qualifications except they can get it passed off by a spark. Checked and tested. Bring a house basher to an industrial job. Like tray and basket and see how they fair. What about doing a three phase board.
I bet if a piece of unistrut hit they wouldn't know what it was.

then again an industrial spark mayhave trouble lifting a floor board without it looking like a plumber had butchered it up.

 

[James]

Both types of spark can complete a job with skill, finesse and pride.

it is just some choose not to or are not capable.

 

[Electrics]

Cause house bashers aren't normally sparks. They are pretend sparks. No Qualifications except they can get it passed off by a spark. Checked and tested. Bring a house basher to an industrial job. Like tray and basket and see how they fair. What about doing a three phase board.
I bet if a piece of unistrut hit they wouldn't know what it was.

You've just lumped all domestic electricians into 'no qualifications'?

Tray and basket are hardly rocket science either, if you can put a shelf up you can put tray up.

Agree though that there would definitely be an adjustment period since everything is different.

 

[littlespark]

I think in training, every apprentice should get a feel for all sides of the business, whether their company does that sort of business or not… the trainee should get some hands on experience in everything.

There are good and bad sparks on both sides of the fence… and the ones that think they are better than the others are the bad ones. They maybe can’t get their heads round the other type, so avoid that work by saying it’s crap, won’t catch me doing that, this is better etc etc.


Housebashing is cheap work. Developers are looking for a cheap job, done quick. One job, repeated time and time again in different properties.

industrial tends to have multimillion pound budgets, one off designs and meticulous planning.

My last big job was Heathrow Terminal 5.
Spent weeks cutting tray and trunking, running cables. Absolutely no thinking whatsoever on my part.

 

[Electrics]

I think in training, every apprentice should get a feel for all sides of the business, whether their company does that sort of business or not… the trainee should get some hands on experience in everything.

There are good and bad sparks on both sides of the fence… and the ones that think they are better than the others are the bad ones. They maybe can’t get their heads round the other type, so avoid that work by saying it’s crap, won’t catch me doing that, this is better etc etc.


Housebashing is cheap work. Developers are looking for a cheap job, done quick. One job, repeated time and time again in different properties.

industrial tends to have multimillion pound budgets, one off designs and meticulous planning.

My last big job was Heathrow Terminal 5.
Spent weeks cutting tray and trunking, running cables. Absolutely no thinking whatsoever on my part.

Imo self employed bashers get more money though. Hard to find work going for more than £20-25 an hour working commercial for someone else, but working for yourself doing domestic your take home can be significantly higher, especially somewhere like the north east where starting pay is between £15-18 for qualified, experienced men.

I'm also currently on an airport - it's all surface and very easy to run because they tell us exactly where to put everything.

 

[Petej999]

I read it that the OP has got an apprenticeship with a commercial firm. And that he has noticed a difference in work ethic between commercial and domestic.
Either way, I'd guess it's more to do with whoever runs the company than it is the individual tradesmen. There are good companies and less good companies in both fields.

When the person completes the Commercial Apprenticeship, will he be classed as an Electrician? Commercial, domestic or industrial, a laughable situation don't you think?

 

[ipf]

spark house bashers aren't normally sparks. They are pretend sparks. No Qualifications except they can get it passed off by a spark. Checked and tested. Bring a house basher to an industrial job. Like tray and basket and see how they fair. What about doing a three phase board.
I bet if a piece of unistrut hit they wouldn't know what it was

Defining 'housebasher' can be difficult.
Is it a derogatory remark for a lesser regarded fully qualified spark? (mickey take).
Are they fully qualified who do domestic only?
Are they lesser qualified who do domestic only?
Are they unqualified who do domestic only?
What about those who do all types, including domestic?

What about designing and completing a half million pound 'domestic', 3phase installation in a mansion? You still have to do a Part P, if it's a habitable building.

Must I admit that I'm an occasional housebasher, or be proud of the fact? I must admit, helping someone out with a house problem can be quite satisfying.

What is an expert housebasher?
One who does a job correctly and by the book or one who does things as cheap as possible, cut's all corners and couldn't care a to$$?

I'd call it all 'open to opinion'.

 

[Petej999]

T o continue I thought if you completed an Apprenticeship as an Electrician that was it

 

[nicebutdim]

Defining 'housebasher' can be difficult.
Is it a derogatory remark for a lesser regarded fully qualified spark? (mickey take).
Are they fully qualified who do domestic only?
Are they lesser qualified who do domestic only?
Are they unqualified who do domestic only?
What about those who do all types, including domestic?

What about designing and completing a half million pound 'domestic', 3phase installation in a mansion? You still have to do a Part P, if it's a habitable building.

Must I admit that I'm an occasional housebasher, or be proud of the fact? I must admit, helping someone out with a house problem can be quite satisfying.

What is an expert housebasher?
One who does a job correctly and by the book or one who does things as cheap as possible, cut's all corners and couldn't care a to$$?

I'd call it all 'open to opinion'.

They guy who posted that comment is seeking access to the trainee forum, so I'm sure they've many years ahead to gain a better understanding about all aspects of the industry.

 

[Electrics]

They guy who posted that comment is seeking access to the trainee forum, so I'm sure they've many years ahead to gain a better understanding about all aspects of the industry.

I was originally referring to opinions like Keyspark01's which i see very often online, where those working in industrial or commercial settings think less of those who do domestic only.

I'm not going to go for the trainee forum - they want to know what time i go for a dump in order to get access to it. Not really up for giving away personal info to a random online forum ?

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm not going to go for the trainee forum - they want to know what time i go for a dump in order to get access to it. Not really up for giving away personal info to a random online forum ?

Supposed to be a lot of help and useful information available in the trainee forum. I once looked at the access requirements and only remember that verification of college course was required, but could be wrong. It's not unreasonable that they'd want to restrict access to those who are genuinely engaged in training.

 

[Electrics]

They want full name, address and telephone number too. Which is fine, i just don't want to give that out to an online forum.

 

[telectrix]

They want full name, address and telephone number too. Which is fine, i just don't want to give that out to an online forum.

the info you give to dan is confidential.

 

[nicebutdim]

Have you looked at the forum privacy policy? I've no such concerns - especially given how thorough and compliant their cookie policy is.

 

[littlespark]

Us that have been here a while get to access the Electricians Arms... to talk about non public things... (a bit like the Masons i think)

Have to give Dan our credentials for that too

 

[DefyG]

most decent domestic sparks i know, they tend to go the extra mile.

Maybe because domestic sparks tend to be small companies or 'one man bands' that rely a lot more on their reputation for ongoing and repeat work?

 

[telectrix]

most decent domestic sparks i know, they tend to go the extra mile.

the rate at which all the pubs are being demolished/ refurbed into care homes, we all have to go the extra mile. at this rate we'll all evolve into camels.

 

[Petej999]

They guy who posted that comment is seeking access to the trainee forum, so I'm sure they've many years ahead to gain a better understanding about all aspects of the industry.

Certainly hope so Mate, good point though

 

[Dave OCD]

I've done a fair bit of Industrial and Commercial type work over the years but these days it's probably 90% Domestic. I do think that those who sneer and look down on domestic sparks in many cases wouldn't cope with that aspect of the trade or do the work particularly well if they had to.
There's an art to running in cables properly and neatly with minimal disruption or damage to the fabric of the property and you also need to be able to adapt to and overcome ever evolving snags as the work progresses at times. And with some customers you really need the patience of a saint.
It can also be exhausting, whereas although some Industrial work can involve heavy cables everything is fixed surface and easily accessible within reason. I also think that a lot of domestic work can be poorly executed and shoddy but a really good install doesn't stand out as everything is hidden with just accessories on the walls on show.

 

[ipf]

I've done a fair bit of Industrial and Commercial type work over the years but these days it's probably 90% Domestic. I do think that those who sneer and look down on domestic sparks in many cases wouldn't cope with that aspect of the trade or do the work particularly well if they had to.
There's an art to running in cables properly and neatly with minimal disruption or damage to the fabric of the property and you also need to be able to adapt to and overcome ever evolving snags as the work progresses at times. And with some customers you really need the patience of a saint.
It can also be exhausting, whereas although some Industrial work can involve heavy cables everything is fixed surface and easily accessible within reason. I also think that a lot of domestic work can be poorly executed and shoddy but a really good install doesn't stand out as everything is hidden with just accessories on the walls on show.

More so these days, yes. It all depends on the work and conditions, though. Industrial can be tough and much 'dirtier' than domestic.
As a contractor, I used to do work at a silver recovery plant, installation of new machines and services, as well as maintenance. Methods of recovery involved chemicals and the burning of x-ray plates. Never worked in worse condition, working on the burners...black as the ace of spades and absolutely shattered every night. Fault finding on breakdowns was a nightmare, everything covered in black dust and mostly in awkward spots behind the units......plus the almost unbearable heat, whilst masked up.