Discuss 12v or 24v for efficiency in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

afarr86

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Hi,

I understand some basics about wattage, volts and amps etc but I am trying to decide what would be the most efficient system

Situation - 2 x 110 amp hour 12 volt batteries wired in parallel. Use these to heat approximately 8 liters of water through a DC water heating element. Which of the two scenarios below would be most efficient concerning pulling the most power from the batteries? If I understand this correctly it is least pull of amps is most efficient - is that correct?

1) Use a DC heating element - 12v 300 watt directly. So 2.5 amps
2) Use a DC heating element - 24v 300 watt via 12v to 24v transformer module. so 1.25 amps

Thanks in advance
 
 
All heating elements are equally efficient, so if the step-up converter had no losses, then the current used from the batteries would be the same in both cases. Note that 300W takes 300/12 = 25 amps, not 2.5, at 12V, and 12.5A, not 1.25, at 24V.

Although the 24V element would only take 12.5A at 24V, the step-up converter would draw 25A from the 12V batteries in order to provide that 12.5A output. However, no converter is 100% efficient, so in reality it will take more than 25A, possibly 10% more, to allow for its own losses, call it 28A.

Therefore a 12V heating element is the best choice, unless there is a great distance between the batteries and the element in which case the use of 24V would allow much smaller cables (1/4 of the size) for the same percentage power loss in the cable.

Heating water from battery power is always painful because of its high specific heat capacity of 4.2kJ/kg.K. You don't mention the temperature rise you are seeking. To raise 8 litres through 60 degrees Centigrade takes
8 * 60 * 4.2k = 2MJ of energy and
2M / 300 / 3600 = 1.85 hours using the 300W element.
At 12V this will use 2M / 12 / 3600 = 47Ah or 1/4 of your nameplate battery capacity. However, due to the relatively rapid discharge rate, the usable capacity will be lower, and in practice it would only give you three hits at heating 8 litres, preferably limited to two before recharging to get the best battery life. One might be tempted to work with just one 110Ah battery but two is much better for this application.
 
What is the application? Does the water have to be heated by these two batteries or could an alternative method of heating the water be used?

Would a small diesel heater and calorifier setup like the ones often used on narrowboats be suitable?
 
As above, electric heating is "100% efficient" but also serves to show just how hard it is to store a significant amount of energy in a battery compared to fossil fuels.

If you have to heat by electric alone, and it is not a big temperature increase, then a heat-pump can give you "300%" efficiency in that for every Watt of electric used, you get 3 W of heat as it pumps from some external source (air or ground source typically). Basically a fridge or air-conditioner in reverse.

But if you need a big temperature rise and that is not an option then burning fuel is the simple and effective answer, but do take GREAT CARE about the risk of fire and CO poisoning.
 
All heating elements are equally efficient, so if the step-up converter had no losses, then the current used from the batteries would be the same in both cases. Note that 300W takes 300/12 = 25 amps, not 2.5, at 12V, and 12.5A, not 1.25, at 24V.

Although the 24V element would only take 12.5A at 24V, the step-up converter would draw 25A from the 12V batteries in order to provide that 12.5A output. However, no converter is 100% efficient, so in reality it will take more than 25A, possibly 10% more, to allow for its own losses, call it 28A.

Therefore a 12V heating element is the best choice, unless there is a great distance between the batteries and the element in which case the use of 24V would allow much smaller cables (1/4 of the size) for the same percentage power loss in the cable.

Heating water from battery power is always painful because of its high specific heat capacity of 4.2kJ/kg.K. You don't mention the temperature rise you are seeking. To raise 8 litres through 60 degrees Centigrade takes
8 * 60 * 4.2k = 2MJ of energy and
2M / 300 / 3600 = 1.85 hours using the 300W element.
At 12V this will use 2M / 12 / 3600 = 47Ah or 1/4 of your nameplate battery capacity. However, due to the relatively rapid discharge rate, the usable capacity will be lower, and in practice it would only give you three hits at heating 8 litres, preferably limited to two before recharging to get the best battery life. One might be tempted to work with just one 110Ah battery but two is much better for this application.
Hi,

Thanks Lucien. This is good information. Forgive me arithmetic mistake - its been a long time since I left school

My aim is to have a water heater in my van that heats 5 litres of water through the diesel night heater, these are not too expensive - like a Truma Therme TT2. However i was looking to try and build in a method of heating another, perhaps 5 - 8 litres of water to about 45 - 50 degrees during the day if necessary, and wanted to use 12v where possible. There are 8 litre 240v ones at around 800 watts that I could plug in via an inverter but I was assuming a 12v setup would be more efficient

When finished I will have 2 x 110ah batteries in parallel charged through a split charge relay from engine and a solar panel
 
What is the application? Does the water have to be heated by these two batteries or could an alternative method of heating the water be used?

Would a small diesel heater and calorifier setup like the ones often used on narrowboats be suitable?
Thanks davesparks - see my reply to Lucien. Not aware of the water heaters for narrow boats. Can you post a link to one please?
 
8 litre 240v ones at around 800 watts that I could plug in via an inverter but I was assuming a 12v setup would be more efficient

It will be, by a factor equal to the inverter efficiency as the elements are all 100% efficient. So if your inverter turns in say 87% efficiency then the 12V element will add that missing 13%. In reality, the difference between operating the element at 230V or 12V is likely to be overshadowed by other considerations, such as the quality of heat insulation on the cylinder and suitability of the exact volume that is being heated. If you had a really well insulated, ideally sized 230V heater, I would favour running that on the inverter versus using the 12V direct in a less-well engineered tank setup.

However, 800W is starting to push the limits for 220Ah storage albeit more convenient for a faster heat-up time. Allowing 90% inverter efficiency that would correspond to a discharge rate of over 70A at 12V or C/3 (entire nameplate capacity discharged over 3 hours) and whilst that is bearable, the cyclic efficiency and durability of a leisure battery will be tested. OK for a full traction lead-acid or Li-Ion but on the limit for leisure or semi-traction. You will probably lose 5-10% of capacity by working at that element power. If you have a 230V heater that you like but want to limit the power so as not to stress the batteries by a high discharge rate, it is relatively simple to use a bucking transformer to reduce the power without impacting inverter efficiency. (Note that reducing power with phase-angle control can dent the inverter efficiency quite badly).

On our boat, I have used a transformer to allow different heat inputs to the water when running from a shoreline with limited capacity. E.g. if I've only got 10 amps but want to run the microwave and a cabin heater, I can throttle back the element to 1000 or 500W to save some amps. As we have many other heat sources, I've never been tempted to run that on battery although with 660Ah domestic storage it would be possible in an emergency.

We're relatively old-fashioned in having LPG wet central heating instead of diesel. On the plus side, it's very effective, quiet and reliable. Just press the button and everything's toasty in a few minutes and you can start showering 15 minutes later (and never stop, if you don't want to). But it's getting very spendy with the current price of Calor gas and would be difficult to justify the cost if it were the sole source of heat. Thankfully, we can heat the cabin with solid-fuel and the water is always heated by the engine when it's running, with enough stored for a few showers. So in the summer, the boiler is only needed occasionally and it would take a while to recoup the cost of switching to diesel, plus I doubt any diesel-fired heater would run faultlessly for 30 years as our LPG Alde has done.

Obviously in a boat we have more cabin side space for wet rads and they are not necessarily practical for a van. This is a pity because diesel-fired wet-central heating is effective and economical and the most versatile if you can also use it to heat the water in a regular calorifier. If you get one with a good coil that can absorb a large percentage of the heater output, very fast reheat is possible. Whether fan convectors and a wet system makes sense, I am not sure, and clearly other people have the same thought hence the existence of the Truma Therme.

perhaps 5 - 8 litres of water to about 45 - 50 degrees

Take care with respect to legionella; hot water should ideally be heated to 65°C for safety.
 
It will be, by a factor equal to the inverter efficiency as the elements are all 100% efficient. So if your inverter turns in say 87% efficiency then the 12V element will add that missing 13%. In reality, the difference between operating the element at 230V or 12V is likely to be overshadowed by other considerations, such as the quality of heat insulation on the cylinder and suitability of the exact volume that is being heated. If you had a really well insulated, ideally sized 230V heater, I would favour running that on the inverter versus using the 12V direct in a less-well engineered tank setup.

However, 800W is starting to push the limits for 220Ah storage albeit more convenient for a faster heat-up time. Allowing 90% inverter efficiency that would correspond to a discharge rate of over 70A at 12V or C/3 (entire nameplate capacity discharged over 3 hours) and whilst that is bearable, the cyclic efficiency and durability of a leisure battery will be tested. OK for a full traction lead-acid or Li-Ion but on the limit for leisure or semi-traction. You will probably lose 5-10% of capacity by working at that element power. If you have a 230V heater that you like but want to limit the power so as not to stress the batteries by a high discharge rate, it is relatively simple to use a bucking transformer to reduce the power without impacting inverter efficiency. (Note that reducing power with phase-angle control can dent the inverter efficiency quite badly).

On our boat, I have used a transformer to allow different heat inputs to the water when running from a shoreline with limited capacity. E.g. if I've only got 10 amps but want to run the microwave and a cabin heater, I can throttle back the element to 1000 or 500W to save some amps. As we have many other heat sources, I've never been tempted to run that on battery although with 660Ah domestic storage it would be possible in an emergency.

We're relatively old-fashioned in having LPG wet central heating instead of diesel. On the plus side, it's very effective, quiet and reliable. Just press the button and everything's toasty in a few minutes and you can start showering 15 minutes later (and never stop, if you don't want to). But it's getting very spendy with the current price of Calor gas and would be difficult to justify the cost if it were the sole source of heat. Thankfully, we can heat the cabin with solid-fuel and the water is always heated by the engine when it's running, with enough stored for a few showers. So in the summer, the boiler is only needed occasionally and it would take a while to recoup the cost of switching to diesel, plus I doubt any diesel-fired heater would run faultlessly for 30 years as our LPG Alde has done.

Obviously in a boat we have more cabin side space for wet rads and they are not necessarily practical for a van. This is a pity because diesel-fired wet-central heating is effective and economical and the most versatile if you can also use it to heat the water in a regular calorifier. If you get one with a good coil that can absorb a large percentage of the heater output, very fast reheat is possible. Whether fan convectors and a wet system makes sense, I am not sure, and clearly other people have the same thought hence the existence of the Truma Therme.



Take care with respect to legionella; hot water should ideally be heated to 65°C for safety.

Thanks again Lucien - you have a lot of knowledge and experience in this field which I am grateful for.

I looked into calorifier - can see the advantage in them but not really suitable for a mid wheel based campervan I think.

Probably best to just stick with the Truma Therme and try and work with space for a 6litre one. I think the 240v water heater (minimum 800 watt) would eat batteries. I was just trying to figure out a way of having an additional small hot water tank on top of the Truma Therme

Appreciate all your help
 
We're relatively old-fashioned in having LPG wet central heating instead of diesel......But it's getting very spendy with the current price of Calor gas and would be difficult to justify the cost ...... the cost of switching to diesel, plus I doubt any diesel-fired heater would run faultlessly for 30 years as our LPG Alde has done.
The recent change from red diesel to white for boats must have skewed this debate somewhat. The LPG will still be classed and taxed as a heating fuel.
 
The recent change from red diesel to white for boats must have skewed this debate somewhat. The LPG will still be classed and taxed as a heating fuel.

It won't have skewed it that much, diesel used for heating and domestic purposes is still taxed at a lower rate.

When you fill up with diesel you have to declare what percentage will be used for domestic and what percentage for travelling.
 
It's still red. The snag is that many sellers will only sell at the 'suggested' typical duty split of 60% propulsion, 40% heating / generation. If you want to declare a different split they don't have the means to process the sale. Another newish problem is the introduction of a percentage of bio-diesel which does not withstand long storage. At our cruising club we are lucky to have non-FAME fuel available.
 
Another newish problem is the introduction of a percentage of bio-diesel which does not withstand long storage.

Tell me about it, I've been battling with the diesel bug on my mates nb for ages.


I've sacked off the main tank for now and she's currently running from a re-purposed 25litre smoke fluid bottle with a thoroughly un-BSS bit of pipework.
 
Tell me about it, I've been battling with the diesel bug on my mates nb for ages.


I've sacked off the main tank for now and she's currently running from a re-purposed 25litre smoke fluid bottle with a thoroughly un-BSS bit of pipework.
When looking in to this for our generator I discovered that HVO fuel is supposed to last 10 years in storage. Just a shame its 20% more expensive!

I think the "Shell GTL" (Gas To Liquid synthetic fuel) is similar, but I never got any prices for that.
 
At least propane doesn't 'go off' in the bottle.
We had been looking at LPG for our generator for that reason, also harder to steal (if bulk tank, not bottles) but not a lot of choice and more civil works and safe clearance requirements so last-minute options forced us to a long-run diesel unit.
 

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