Discuss 17th Edition Question in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
Hi mateWelcome to the forum mate.
I'm interested in this one, but I have some questions.
Does he have the current regs book?
Does he know the differences from the 17th and current regs?
Does he work to the current regs?
H&S CHOA (Covering His Own ---)
He will be following the guidelines of company policy or insurance as suggested above.
Rightly or wrongly, he is doing his job by asking for it.
What do visiting contractors know about your companies own procedures?
Is there a problem getting this 17th guy up to speed and sending him on a course to get 18th 2nd amdmt?
...
H&S Manager was, once upon a time, an electrician in new builds, and is convinced you absolutely must have the 18th before you can either open existing CUs or install new circuits
No absolutely no problem with getting him to do the 18th, just wasn't sure if the definitive "No" from H&S was covering fire or because he wanted his mate inH&S CHOA (Covering His Own ---)
He will be following the guidelines of company policy or insurance as suggested above.
Rightly or wrongly, he is doing his job by asking for it.
What do visiting contractors know about your companies own procedures?
Is there a problem getting this 17th guy up to speed and sending him on a course to get 18th 2nd amdmt?
We are, just wanted to be sure it wasn't an excuse to get his mate in who has done work before and charged us through the noseThat's the key thing for me - why doesn't the company put him through the 18th course/exam as appropriate? It's hardly a huge investment.
We are a manufacturing facility, huge growth so as a result the building occasionally has a necessity for separate circuits for machinery or to facilitate some other new needWhy would a maintenance operative be required to install new circuits? What does your company do @PangEng?
As above, your best option is to send them on an 18th AM2 course and verify they (or better still, your company) as all of the necessary 18th edition AM2 books available.We are a manufacturing facility, huge growth so as a result the building occasionally has a necessity for separate circuits for machinery or to facilitate some other new need
This sounds like a possibility.....or because he wanted his mate in
We tend to concentrate on our core roles, get in contractors for this sort of thing. Don't think it makes business sense to employ an 'electrician' for such occasional work.We are a manufacturing facility, huge growth so as a result the building occasionally has a necessity for separate circuits for machinery or to facilitate some other new need
If you already employ someone who is 95% of the way to being so, surely it makes sense just to complete the last step (i.e. formally recognised as 18th AM2)?We tend to concentrate on our core roles, get in contractors for this sort of thing. Don't think it makes business sense to employ an 'electrician' for such occasional work.
We tend to concentrate on our core roles, get in contractors for this sort of thing. Don't think it makes business sense to employ an 'electrician' for such occasional work.
Assuming this is nothing to do with domestic properties, that isn't really relevant.I'm guessing maintenance isn't signed up to a scheme provider
Are you saying commercial premises don't need certifying?Assuming this is nothing to do with domestic properties, that isn't really relevant.
No. I'm saying being a member of a competent persons scheme is not mandatory to perform testing, inspection, and certification.Are you saying commercial premises don't need certifying?
NoAre you saying commercial premises don't need certifying?
We don't know they aren't going to test and certify.Ok I am generalising as either the person conducting the work or the business they are working for are NORMALLY in a scheme to issue a certificate so my question was how is this going to be certified
And again an MFT isn't required but to test a new circuit they would need to use suitable test equipment such as an MFT or separates, it doesn't really matter
My point was how is the person installing the new circuits going to test and certify?
Which is exactly why I asked the question and could be why H&S doesn't want maintenance to do the work for new circuitsWe don't know they aren't going to test and certify.
Ok I am generalising as either the person conducting the work or the business they are working for are NORMALLY in a scheme to issue a certificate so my question was how is this going to be certified
And again an MFT isn't required but to test a new circuit they would need to use suitable test equipment such as an MFT or separates, it doesn't really matter
My point was how is the person installing the new circuits going to test and certify?
If you already employ someone who is 95% of the way to being so, surely it makes sense just to complete the last step (i.e. formally recognised as 18th AM2)?
I guess it might be 'business sense' not to have to pay them any more for having it...
Years ago I worked in the Car Factory in Oxford, British Leyland, as it was then. It's 'maintenance teams' consisted of many different time served trades, in the various fields.It very much depends on the work you want your staff to do.
Some "maintenance" are well qualified completely capable of new installation work and/or detail design and modification of electrical, PLCs etc etc.
Other "maintenance" are really just capable of changing the occasional lamp and cleaning stuff.
And of course anywhere between the two
So absolutely nothing wrong with a capable person doing appropriate work.
Years ago I worked in the Car Factory in Oxford, British Leyland, as it was then. It's 'maintenance teams' consisted of many different time served trades, in the various fields.
Fast forward to today, and I'm a maintenance operative, not in a manufacturing premise, but nevertheless one that has many different services and systems. When I first started there a few years ago, I used my electrical qualifications & skills. But I soon learnt that was not my role. My new colleague mentioned, he 'done the 17th' as well, so he was an electrician and also done some work there. Well, having seen the work, he's not.
Unfortunately, a lot maintenance operatives think they know everything there is to know about the systems and services in their premises. Truth is, we are the 'Jack of all trades, and the master of none'. What we do well though, are the myriad of simple fixes, compliances and keeping the place going.
So send them on an 18th, HVAC, fire alarm, heating, gas, CHP, warden call, BMS's etc etc courses, and do away with the contractors. But have time for nothing else.
If the OP's premise, is like the car factory, you'll employ an electrician from the beginning, perhaps as an apprentice. If not, you'll employ an appropriate contractor.
So I agree with the H&S Manager, but for different reasons.
Years ago I worked in the Car Factory in Oxford, British Leyland, as it was then. It's 'maintenance teams' consisted of many different time served trades, in the various fields.
Fast forward to today, and I'm a maintenance operative, not in a manufacturing premise, but nevertheless one that has many different services and systems. When I first started there a few years ago, I used my electrical qualifications & skills. But I soon learnt that was not my role. My new colleague mentioned, he 'done the 17th' as well, so he was an electrician and also done some work there. Well, having seen the work, he's not.
Unfortunately, a lot maintenance operatives think they know everything there is to know about the systems and services in their premises. Truth is, we are the 'Jack of all trades, and the master of none'. What we do well though, are the myriad of simple fixes, compliances and keeping the place going.
So send them on an 18th, HVAC, fire alarm, heating, gas, CHP, warden call, BMS's etc etc courses, and do away with the contractors. But have time for nothing else.
If the OP's premise, is like the car factory, you'll employ an electrician from the beginning, perhaps as an apprentice. If not, you'll employ an appropriate contractor.
So I agree with the H&S Manager, but for different reasons.
The regs exams are not difficult to pass, and don't really indicate competency, so don't put too much value on them. A low pass or fail would indicate incompetency however.
Put it this way, if I had a choice of employing someone who had the 18th ed at 75%, or the 17th at 95%, I know who I'd choose.
I try not to be disingenuous, after all I'm now one of 'maintenance people'.I understand that may be your experience, however mine has been quite different, so I think it is rather disingenuous to class all maintenance people with a low level of competency.
I have delt with far too many contracting companies and "electricians" with such a low level of ability - it beggers belief.
We see this here, so many EICRs that are bordering on theft from the client - taking money for these "reports" and of course so many photos of disgusting work.
The reality is, there are examples of complete incompetence at all levels and in all sectors of the industry, yet it would be wrong to claim all "maintenance" or "contractors" or "domestic" or "EV installers" etc would be inherently unsuitable.
In fact on here, we have each no true knowledge of the skills, ability or knowledge of other members, sure the fact that they have sufficient interest to spend their spare time involved in "electrics" may indicate that they are the better ones, but we have also seen others on here who we may guess aren't perhaps as good as they think they are.
My view, is if people have passed their G&G + 16th/17th/18th or whatever I.e. are a qualified electrician then we should treat them as competent until indicated otherwise.
It would be wrong to believe that oneself is the only competent person and everyone else is not until they prove it.
(Unless you are assessing them for a job I guess)
I try not to be disingenuous, after all I'm now one of 'maintenance people'.
I've experienced the different types of maintenance operatives. Those I spoke of at the car factory, were fully affiliated & trained for their particular singular trade. Millwrights weren't expected to do electrical work, and visa versa.
Whilst I have relieved additional training & qualifications in my current work place, NVQ3's in IITEE, and Pool Plant maintenance, we still have contractors in to carry out PAT testing and pool plant repairs etc. I simply wouldn't have the time and current knowledge, to do the job justice.
Presumably, when this person who the OP describes, was employed he/she would of had a job description & role. If this person's job has changed, and the new role fits, retrain them. However, I expect not. It just employee who thinks they should, not what the employer wants them to.
The regs exams are not difficult to pass, and don't really indicate competency, so don't put too much value on them. A low pass or fail would indicate incompetency however.
Put it this way, if I had a choice of employing someone who had the 18th ed at 75%, or the 17th at 95%, I know who I'd choose.
Most job applications I've read have a job description, person specification & service conditions etc.Your use of 'presumably' in that last sentence rather makes Julie's point - we have no way of knowing and can not assume.
The OP asked a very specific question and one to which the answer lies not only in qualifications, but also in a company policy to which none of us are privy.
Most job applications I've read have a job description, person specification & service conditions etc.
And to your last point, I'm giving the thread the what the views of my employer are on this subject, as a kind of check.
I retired from the industry 5 years ago, but was qualified then. I would be happy in carry work in my own house, as I could ask or read here of up to date regs & knowledge. All you need to prove is competency, qualifications are one way of proving that. However, I would not carry out work in other peoples properties, or the work place.All interesting points, if it gives any more insight, the person is qualified to the 2330 Level 3, 17th edition regs, worked self employed previously and so far seems to do a good job
When I say "maintenance" I mean more of en electrical maintenance than anything else, and was employed as such
Naturally, I have no problem whatsoever sending him for the 18th, we are pretty good for upskilling here, and I'm a very big advocate of it
The only point of the initial question was to find out of anyone knew of any law or reg that specified you must be up to the 18th to do tasks like new circuit installs, opening CUs, a new spur here and there etc etc so I can assess whether H&S is deliberately blocking work being carried out in house for some reason
HelloHi all,
Sorry if this has already been answered previously
If one of our maintenance technicians currently has 17th edition, is he still allowed to open CUs and install new circuits?
H&S Manager thinks not
Answers on a postcard!
He just has to be competant in his job, which his ongoing empolyment by the company would indicate. And fill in IEE pattern forms to record any new installs or minor works in house. I`ve worked maintenance on and off for 40 years for various companies as inhouse or for sub contractor company and that`s all they everdone.
Correct there.With respect I think it's a bit excessive to start questioning and comparing job roles. Every company is different - massively so. And roles can even adapt and change. Case in point; I started in another role before becoming an Estate Manager with my employer. I undertake my role differently to my predecessor and my successor will likely make it a different role too. My predecessor was much more office/paperwork based. I prefer to be on the tools more than half the time. With an electrical background, it was obviously noted I had a bias this way - I undertake work to this effect and it's now reflected in my terms of empoyment following an annual review.
Obviously I'm in a funny position, because being the Manager, it's ultimately my job to also decide on the competencies required to undertake electrical, and other work at our site (and to this effect I have relevant qualifications, partly supported by my employer) - but my point is, Maintenance in one Employer may be very different to somewhere else.
I agree with you, the guy with the 18th as they will have the newer kitThe regs exams are not difficult to pass, and don't really indicate competency, so don't put too much value on them. A low pass or fail would indicate incompetency however.
Put it this way, if I had a choice of employing someone who had the 18th ed at 75%, or the 17th at 95%, I know who I'd choose.
Reply to 17th Edition Question in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net