2 way to Intermediate?

[Flakey]

Hi there,

I have 2 two way lights that i want to make into a 3 way arrangement.
1 of the 2 way switches is for the downstairs hall light and connects to a 2 way 2 gang switch at the other end of the hallway.
The other 2 way switch is upstairs and lights up the stair case and upstairs hallway. It is also connected the other gang of the 2 way 2 gang switch.
So the cabling is in for the 2 way 2 gang for me to replace with an intermediate switch.

Now the upstairs and downstairs light are on the same circuit but have their own feeds/switch lines to the 1 gang 2 way switches. Im not able to run a cable from the downstairs light to the upstairs light due to the decor flooring etc which would make all lights come on whatever the switch arrangement. Would i for example be able to use the cable in the upstairs switch disconnect the orignal feed core of the cable in the switch upstairs and connect the switch line into L2 for example to light that part of the the circuit simultaneously ( from the first switch downstairs) as the neutral is in the rose upstairs and ive tested for cross neutrals.
Let me know if this allowed if this would work or is there something im missing.
In a Straight forward circumstance where there is access then no problem.

if the feed out of the first light was going straight to the upstairs light then i would use that as my feed i.e feed to switch line across to upstairs light.

Hope its not too confusing or silly to propose!

cheers

J

 

[Hawkmoon]

I may have missed it (Sunday morning brain) but exactly what lights do you want to be controlled by intermediate?

 

[Flakey]

Sorry im reading and cant understand myself lol.
I want the downstairs and upstairs light to be controlled from any of the switches i.e switch downstairs intermediate and switch upstairs. At the same time!

 

[Ian Holdham]

Can you take some photos of the wiring in the switches, might be easier to understand?

 

[derek]

A circuit diagram should help to clarify things.
Are you saying you want to change the 2 gang 2 way for an intermediate switch?

 

[Flakey]

Yes derek that is correct but i want all mentioned lights to go on via any switch i.e downstairs light staircase and upstairs lights. I am not able to run a cable to the upstairs rose from the downstairs rose so that it becomes (in theory) 2 lights turned on from the same switch The up stairs switch is fed from the rose upstairs. my question is can i use just the switch line in core of the cable in the upstairs switch (L2) only and take out the feed core. As the switch downstairs has a feed to it already which will make the circuit. and as there is already a netural in the rose upstairs.

Im going to get a diagram going!

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Doing it from scratch seems so easy compared to modifying an existing set up!

a nice chewy problem though

 

[Hawkmoon]

Providing they are all on the same circuit and there will be no resulting 'borrowed' neutrals, I would say there is likely to be enough cores at the switches to do what you propose - but would have to see it before being sure.

 

[derek]

deleted.. not thought through

 

[Hawkmoon]

One thing is for sure:

I don't think a gardener should be attempting this kind of work - no matter how supportive of the environment he is....:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Flakey]

Hope it makes sense thanks again guys!

P.S the feed out is not going directly from the first rose to the second rose just drawn in if it was then i would be sweet lol!

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

You put the brown wire in the black wire out, the gray as a strapper and shake it all about.

 

[Flakey]

Hawkmoon I have no problem with wiring in normal curcumstances im trying to see if im breaking anything apart from good practice by doing this because id rather tell the customer it cant be done. Like i said i dont want to rip their house to bits as they have high end flooring and the decor is finished. Im just building my arsenal of knowledge and good practice!

 

[Flakey]

I agree SpartyKus would love it if i was able to!

 

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon I have no problem with wiring in normal curcumstances im trying to see if im breaking anything apart from good practice by doing this because id rather tell the customer it cant be done. Like i said i dont want to rip their house to bits as they have high end flooring and the decor is finished. Im just building my arsenal of knowledge and good practice!

Wasn't actually being serious, just a Sunday morning mediocre attempt at humour

 

[derek]

Can you get the two lamps in parallel? If you can't then you will have a problem with the lamps being in series as far as I can work out at this hour on a Sunday.

 

[Flakey]

lol I know Hawkmoon only realised when i re-read

 

[Plonker 3]

Hawkmoon I have no problem with wiring in normal curcumstances im trying to see if im breaking anything apart from good practice by doing this because id rather tell the customer it cant be done. Like i said i dont want to rip their house to bits as they have high end flooring and the decor is finished. Im just building my arsenal of knowledge and good practice!

Any competent spark should be able to see on site weather this is possible or not. The fact you have a paying customer wanting this done and you are asking on here is scary stuff.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Any competent spark should be able to see on site weather this is possible or not. The fact you have a paying customer wanting this done and you are asking on here is scary stuff.

I don't know this guy's background but I have known a couple of sparks in my time who are competent and safe but just have trouble getting their head round unusual 2 way/inter circuits - not scary.

Oh and by the way - what has 'on site weather' got to do with it?? Even if there has been a lot of rain


Sorry - in silly mood this morning lol

 

[telectrix]

if i read your diagram right, you want to feed the L into the switching arrangement to the left hand switch instead of the right hand switch. can;t see a problem. as long as it goes into L1.

 

[telectrix]

or you could use 3 remote control switches on separate frequencies

 

[Octopus]

I don't think this can happen due to the existing wiring and the OP's comment that running new cables isn't feasible. But it is Sunday morning!

 

[Flakey]

Any competent spark should be able to see on site weather this is possible or not. The fact you have a paying customer wanting this done and you are asking on here is scary stuff.

fair enough mate!

 

[Flakey]

Thats correct mate obviously the best choice is to run a new cable in normal circumstances.
Im just trying my best to avoid bad practice or if there is somthing i may be missing that makes the idea flawed. Id rather tell them it cant be done to be honest; without running a new cable.
Its a solution ive come to but want to be picked apart as to why its a bad idea or where problems may lie. Im more used to the conventional approach to things which i whole heartedly agree with.

Thanks again

J

 

[Flakey]

if i read your diagram right, you want to feed the L into the switching arrangement to the left hand switch instead of the right hand switch. can;t see a problem. as long as it goes into L1.

Sorry my main point is can i have a stand alone switch line in the right hand switch going up to the rose upstairs connected into L2 of the right hand switch so that the effect is the lights up and downstairs go on or off regards of the switch being switched?

cheers

J

 

[Octopus]

Suggest you get the parts out of your shed/van/garage and make it up in your lounge and see if you can make it work!

 

[Flakey]

lol cheers!

 

[itselectric]

looking at your diagram I don't think it is going to work as the switch wires for both lights are not linked. If you have all the wires you have shown then the circuit you want is possible.

 

[Flakey]

looking at your diagram I don't think it is going to work as the switch wires for both lights are not linked. If you have all the wires you have shown then the circuit you want is possible.

Your right its not going to work because of the multiple paths within the switches light upstairs may come one downstairs off.
Thanks again!

 

[itselectric]

Do you have a permanent live at both switches?

 

[Flakey]

Do you have a permanent live at both switches?

Yes there is a permanent live in both switches

 

[Hawkmoon]

I would wire this conduit method and use the extra core in the 3 core(s) to link both switch wires of both lights

To clarify - feed left switch common - sw wire to right switch common - link from right light switch common to left switch, switch wire (not in terminal)

That should work fine

 

[Octopus]

I would wire this conduit method and use the extra core in the 3 core(s) to link both switch wires of both lights

a reasonable idea except the OP states using existing cabling!

 

[itselectric]

At left hand switch connect permanent live to common. connect strappers as normal. connect switch wire to yellow in a connector. leave intermediate as you have it. At right hand switch connect the swich wire along with the yellow into the common. strappers stay as normal. AT right hand ceiling rose disconnect permanent live and make it safe do the same atright hand switch.

 

[Hawkmoon]

a reasonable idea except the OP states using existing cabling!

Read again - explained a bit better (can be done with existing)

 

[Flakey]

I would wire this conduit method and use the extra core in the 3 core(s) to link both switch wires of both lights

To clarify - feed left switch common - sw wire to right switch common - link from light switch common to left switch switch wire (not in terminal)



That should work fine

Cheers Hawkmoon i was just think that actually just trying to get the mist out of my head with that arrangment in terms of the cable connection conventions lol.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Cheers Hawkmoon i was just think that actually just trying to get the mist out of my head with that arrangment in terms of the cable connection conventions lol.

Wiring it conduit style means you only need 2 cores between switches, Your spare core can now be used to link switch wires (both connected to right hand common)

 

[7029 dave]

As above, as long as you have perm feed common pos 1, any switch pos in between (strapperx2) s/l common last switch, or vicky ferkey

 

[Hawkmoon]

Ignore the strappers they are ok where you have them

Left switch:

Live to common
Sw from left light jointed to 3 core red (not in term)


Right switch:
Red of 3 core in common along with sw to right hand light

 

[Flakey]

Ignore the strappers they are ok where you have them

Left switch:

Live to common
Sw from left light jointed to 3 core red (not in term)


Right switch:
Red of 3 core in common along with sw to right hand light

Cheers HawkMoon & Itselectric

This look right

 

[Hawkmoon]

Good - now get back to your Dahlias

 

[derek]

Unused conductors are often sleeved and used as cpc. As long as you've checked it is not a borrowed neutral then it looks like it will work, although the intermediate switch might need slight alteration.

 

[Flakey]

Good - now get back to your Dahlias

haha cheers mate I will get back to them this weather aint half giving them problems

 

[itselectric]

Sorry Greengardener, after my post no 34 I went back to your drawing and notice you use red for your common where I was shown to use yellow. therefore my post would not have been totally correct if you followed it to the letter, but if you substitute red for yellow in my original post it would be as others have said.

 

[Flakey]

Sorry Greengardener, after my post no 34 I went back to your drawing and notice you use red for your common where I was shown to use yellow. therefore my post would not have been totally correct if you followed it to the letter, but if you substitute red for yellow in my original post it would be as others have said.

Thanks again itselectric it all helped mate. I feel im competent to a decent degree but somtimes you need to be presented with an unfamiliar situation to get experience now it is noted so i am fully competent lol . Sorry to anyone who sees what i asked as basic stuff.
I appreciate everyones input

Cheers

J

 

[itselectric]

No worries Greengardener and for every one who read this as basic stuff there are probably 2 or three who have been helped.

 

[Geordie Spark]

One thing is for sure:

I don't think a gardener should be attempting this kind of work - no matter how supportive of the environment he is....:smilewinkgrin:

Why not??

It's a lighting job so bulbs will be involved somewhere.