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it's only a flesh wound.
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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
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Manuel with his pet 'hamster'.
This makes me think that the combination oven (microwave and oven in one) example I mentioned at the beginning of this thread at 3,100 watts is suitable for 13A plug and final ring circuit. The instructions do not mention anything about amperage, I posted them, only that a DP isolator needs to be fitted. A 13A sockets have DP isolation. A spur off a ring with 20A DP isolator switch, or a 13A FCU, feeding a 13A socket behind the oven would conform to that.
Yes, I know it is best the oven has its own dedicated supply to be sure, that is not the point. Many would like to fit an oven like this, marginally over the 13 amp cut off point, as it would save ripping a finished kitchen to pieces.
3700W requires a 16A supply. The hob probably has internal power management setttings to allow the total load to be limited to 16, 13 or 10A which should be set during commissioning. The rating given on the box is 3700W because that is what the hob is physically capable of delivering.
If you scroll down to the 'installation' tab on this link, Bosch have shown the 3700W limit as corresponding to the 13A plug version. I suspect that is a copy-and-paste mistake from the 16A Schuko-plug version and that they do not intend a 13A plug to supply 3700W.
This hob is equipped with a UK 3 pin plug for an easy plug & play installation. The plug limits the maximum power output to 3.7 KW. For higher power output, please select a hob without plug and ensure installation is carried out by a qualified electrician
The 13A UK plug limits the maximum to below 3.7 kW - I think a mistake here in the writing.
Agree, it seems like badly worded English.
Bosch, Neff and Siemens are different brands of the same company, so I would expect to find those three hobs to be internally the same core product.
Yes, but you can see the intention of what they mean.
Interesting comment from the manufacturer, bearing in mind the 13amp fuse is installed primarily to protect the CABLE supplying the hob.
The Kookerhob is greatpowerneeding and the elektrische Kabels have to be placed bei the Skilledtechnician. In Europe is to make 16A Kuppling with a Schukostecker allowed. In Grossbritannien, because the dumme Plugtoppen the Weakcontacts and Stupidlittlefuses which like Heatelements often the Outburning or Downmelting are the cause of are required to have, is max. 13A permitted. Offchoppen von Plugtoppen is ABSOLUT NICHT GESTATTET!
I think it was removed in the 15th edition, but could have been 16th
For cable ratings, certainly in the 14th, it was a case of 'the ratings tabulated
may be multiplied by 1.33 where close excess current protection can be assured'. For some larger cables it was the other way round (x 0.75), because of HBC protection. For others (larger supply cables, generally) ratings were the same for both.
No cable tables for the 15th but it may have been where tabulated values became all 'close'.......?
Of course he would, nt. That's why he is known as reputable. The OP clearly had some doubts about this particular manufacturer. The"badlyworded" English (you highlighted in jest), in the instructions will does little to inspire a consumers confidence.
"The plug limits the maximum power output 3.7KW" is badly worded but as DPG stated, the intent is clear and...... incorrect
(though you are fused down inherently safer ,and more efficient)
The British 13A plug is inferior? I have not seen any plug/socket arrangement that is better. None. The earthed Schuko socket with a 13A fuse in the plug would be a great advancement being something the British could take up creating some sort of standardisation. I like the idea of drilling only a round hole to fit a socket.
Did he say the British 13A plug is inferior?
Possible that something was lost in translation, but I understood Lucian to mean that the hob's design could be considered poor if it could be verified that Bosch's intention was to supply the full 3.7kW load through a 13A plug - he didn't believe this to be the case.
Edit: Have I just taken the bold step of attempting to clarify a point made by Lucian? Better get my coat...
He based this on working around the world experiencing different electrical systems. He said he bought a whole bunch of UK plugs, fuses and plugboards to use on his own equipment when touring the world. If one piece of equipment was at fault, it never took the lot down.
He was strongly recommending the British not to take up an inferior design and that the EU should adopt the best plug, not adopt an inferior design.
Yes, I remember the talk about the standard Euro plug. It's good that they forgot about it!
Nobody has picked up the one test which the British plug fails when compared to US and some other plugs though.
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Flowery Tw*ts in 10 mins on BBC1.
Manuel with his pet 'hamster'.
Oh no it isn't.
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MK would brand plugs for people on a raised circular part on the cover I had loads with BBC on them.
This is playing on my mind as the appliance is capable of drawing over 13 amps. If the appliance came with no 13A plug, an electrician would not fit one on this appliance, as it is capable of drawing over 13 amps. Or fit it on a final ring circuit. It is obvious the makers have taken diversity into account, as the load is split between four current drawers, the rings, which will be cutting in and out via thermostats.
This makes me think that the combination oven (microwave and oven in one) example I mentioned at the beginning of this thread at 3,100 watts is suitable for 13A plug and final ring circuit. The instructions do not mention anything about amperage, I posted them, only that a DP isolator needs to be fitted. A 13A sockets have DP isolation. A spur off a ring with 20A DP isolator switch, or a 13A FCU, feeding a 13A socket behind the oven would conform to that.
Yes, I know it is best the oven has its own dedicated supply to be sure, that is not the point. Many would like to fit an oven like this, marginally over the 13 amp cut off point, as it would save ripping a finished kitchen to pieces.
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How many rings did that hob have?
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3700W requires a 16A supply. The hob probably has internal power management setttings to allow the total load to be limited to 16, 13 or 10A which should be set during commissioning. The rating given on the box is 3700W because that is what the hob is physically capable of delivering.
If you scroll down to the 'installation' tab on this link, Bosch have shown the 3700W limit as corresponding to the 13A plug version. I suspect that is a copy-and-paste mistake from the 16A Schuko-plug version and that they do not intend a 13A plug to supply 3700W.
It says:3700W requires a 16A supply. The hob probably has internal power management setttings to allow the total load to be limited to 16, 13 or 10A which should be set during commissioning. The rating given on the box is 3700W because that is what the hob is physically capable of delivering.
If you scroll down to the 'installation' tab on this link, Bosch have shown the 3700W limit as corresponding to the 13A plug version. I suspect that is a copy-and-paste mistake from the 16A Schuko-plug version and that they do not intend a 13A plug to supply 3700W.
This hob is equipped with a UK 3 pin plug for an easy plug & play installation. The plug limits the maximum power output to 3.7 KW. For higher power output, please select a hob without plug and ensure installation is carried out by a qualified electrician
The 13A UK plug limits the maximum to below 3.7 kW - I think a mistake here in the writing.
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Agree, it seems like badly worded English.
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Indeed, as I pointed out in post #59.
Bosch, Neff and Siemens are different brands of the same company, so I would expect to find those three hobs to be internally the same core product.
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Yes, but you can see the intention of what they mean.
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Interesting comment from the manufacturer, bearing in mind the 13amp fuse is installed primarily to protect the CABLE supplying the hob.
13amp plug limit maximum? Unlikely. A 13 amp plug may well carry a few amps above its rating for a significant period
Yes, fuses blow at above 13A, and only when sustained over-current is being drawn. It is a bad design that relies on the fuse not blowing.
Was this to a cooker radial 6mm cable? On on a final ring circuit? If on cooker radial, the plug could have been removed with the hob set to 3.7 kW drawing 16A.
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But I think we have a concensus that this is a mistake.
Achtung!
The Kookerhob is greatpowerneeding and the elektrische Kabels have to be placed bei the Skilledtechnician. In Europe is to make 16A Kuppling with a Schukostecker allowed. In Grossbritannien, because the dumme Plugtoppen the Weakcontacts and Stupidlittlefuses which like Heatelements often the Outburning or Downmelting are the cause of are required to have, is max. 13A permitted. Offchoppen von Plugtoppen is ABSOLUT NICHT GESTATTET!
By Bosch as well.
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in myold house, back in the 70's the fuse box ( wylex with 3036's) was labelled "Achtung. Gerfingerpoken Verboten".
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Are you Stanley Unwin in disguise?
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Remember the terms "close excess protection" and "coarse excess protection" (not sure if they are used much any more). But manufacturers would be aware that most fuses are pretty crude devices. A 13 amp fuse will happily carry 15,16 amps for more than enough time than it takes to cook your chicken in an ovan or have fry your chop and boil your spud
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"Manufacturers instructions". Well that deserves a thread all of its own. The intent is correct. Who knows an appliance better than its maker.? But like everything, it's open to abuse. The solution in my view is proper scrutiny. Instructions without explanations is always a bad idea. Some manufacturers clearly see it as a blank cheque.
Course protection was essentially a rewirable fuse (and cartridge fuses q2 or R class), and close protection was a cartridge fuse, the terms were removed when the cable sizing method was revamped and the single rated value used for fuses, mcb... etc. Rather than a different value for each type of device based on the 1.5x over 4 hours.
I think it was removed in the 15th edition, but could have been 16th
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I thought it was after the 16th, when we had the infamous 'bond everything' theory but I now reckon it was 'removed' by the 15th. Found a 1981 Whitfield Guide to 15th with no mention of 'close and coarse'....just HBC, MCB and rewireable.
For cable ratings, certainly in the 14th, it was a case of 'the ratings tabulated
may be multiplied by 1.33 where close excess current protection can be assured'. For some larger cables it was the other way round (x 0.75), because of HBC protection. For others (larger supply cables, generally) ratings were the same for both.
No cable tables for the 15th but it may have been where tabulated values became all 'close'.......?
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I think this is a slightly disingenuous observation on fuses. And a reputable manufacturer would not exploit a known undesirable situation (non-tripping overload of OCPD). So I still contend that the hob in question is not supposed to be set to deliver 3.7kW from a 13A plug.
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I think you "slightly" misunderstood. My reference was to how an appliance manufacturer would be aware of the tolerance of 13 amp fuse. Disingenuous??
Of course he would, nt. That's why he is known as reputable. The OP clearly had some doubts about this particular manufacturer. The"badlyworded" English (you highlighted in jest), in the instructions will does little to inspire a consumers confidence.
You are entitled to your contention. But it does not harmonize with the stated manufacturers instructions as displayed by the OP.
"The plug limits the maximum power output 3.7KW" is badly worded but as DPG stated, the intent is clear and...... incorrect
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The appliance that I was referring to was made by/for a large, reputable, European HQ'd manufacturer whose brands account for a good fraction of mid to high-end UK appliance sales. My observation was specifically that it seems more likely that the literature and specification is in error, at least in the English version, than the design of the appliance.
My reasoning is that the error appears to be of a form that often occurs when different versions of a product are marketed to different territories with different versions of instructions. Sections that need to be replaced altogether to account for version differences are sometimes translated instead. Here, I suspect that the difference between the maximum power input permitted in the UK and German versions has been overlooked when compiling the English instructions.
E.g. where a German manual instructs the user to connect the appliance to a 16A Schuko socket, the English might say 'Connect the appliance to a 16A safety contact'. The incorrect wording 'safety contact' is a clue that a section of text that should have been replaced outright with 'Connect the appliance to a 13A socket-outlet' has instead been translated, therefore the reference to 16A might also be a mistake. Just as I routinely find instructions for US-made, CE-marked, 230V-compatible gear sold in the UK to use only a UL-listed cordset to connect it to my 120V grounded receptacle.
In summary, I do not think it was the intention of Bosch to imply that a 3.7kW load may be supplied via a 13A plug, and therefore to flag it as bad design and blame such a practice for damage and failure would require verification as to whether that really was their intention. If so, then I agree fully that it is bad design.
My reasoning is that the error appears to be of a form that often occurs when different versions of a product are marketed to different territories with different versions of instructions. Sections that need to be replaced altogether to account for version differences are sometimes translated instead. Here, I suspect that the difference between the maximum power input permitted in the UK and German versions has been overlooked when compiling the English instructions.
E.g. where a German manual instructs the user to connect the appliance to a 16A Schuko socket, the English might say 'Connect the appliance to a 16A safety contact'. The incorrect wording 'safety contact' is a clue that a section of text that should have been replaced outright with 'Connect the appliance to a 13A socket-outlet' has instead been translated, therefore the reference to 16A might also be a mistake. Just as I routinely find instructions for US-made, CE-marked, 230V-compatible gear sold in the UK to use only a UL-listed cordset to connect it to my 120V grounded receptacle.
In summary, I do not think it was the intention of Bosch to imply that a 3.7kW load may be supplied via a 13A plug, and therefore to flag it as bad design and blame such a practice for damage and failure would require verification as to whether that really was their intention. If so, then I agree fully that it is bad design.
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i take it as a cheeky prod , Our EU 16A is bigger than your inferior 13A.
(though you are fused down inherently safer ,and more efficient)
Was the Bosch induction hob installer settable from 3Kw to 3/7kW? The instructions were wrong for sure.
The British 13A plug is inferior? I have not seen any plug/socket arrangement that is better. None. The earthed Schuko socket with a 13A fuse in the plug would be a great advancement being something the British could take up creating some sort of standardisation. I like the idea of drilling only a round hole to fit a socket.
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Did he say the British 13A plug is inferior?
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Possible that something was lost in translation, but I understood Lucian to mean that the hob's design could be considered poor if it could be verified that Bosch's intention was to supply the full 3.7kW load through a 13A plug - he didn't believe this to be the case.
Edit: Have I just taken the bold step of attempting to clarify a point made by Lucian? Better get my coat...
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Eurovision twitterness, don't you mean ?.
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No he did, nt. But since the topic has been raised, here is my tuppence worth about which is superior. I hold the standard British and Schuko plugs in high regard. (not cheap knockoffs of either) . Have used them both extensively. I would say that on balance I prefer the British plug, specifically for its flat "wall hugging" design with a "vertical" rather than "horizontal" lead. It's much easier to hide.
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The British 13amp plug is not, as many British people seem to believe, inherently safer because of its 13 amp fuse. It seems to be perceived as an"extra" that other countries plugs don't have. The reality is, is that these fuses are the price that has to be paid for employing a 32 amp ring circuit rather than a 16 (or 20amp) radial.
The "schuko" is already an advanced version of the British plug regarding not needing any fuses
If you are hoping the rest of the world will adapt the British fused plug................. Best of luck....... you will need it.......
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No, but that's a very good one. Along with bits of Lego obviously!
Having a local fuse to a single socket outlet is a great advantage and safety feature. Nothing is better than the UK 3-pin plug, nothing. It is also easy to hold, not like other small awkward plugs around the world, so fine for user use. Get to understand its merits.
In the late 1980s there was talk of a standard Euro plug that would all adopt. I recall a small 5 minute film on Channel 4 by an American involved in the film industry. He was lauding the UK 3-pin plug, pointing out its advantages, especially the local fuse in the plug, and a firm engagement when pushed in, that would not fall out, saying it is by far the best in the world.
He based this on working around the world experiencing different electrical systems. He said he bought a whole bunch of UK plugs, fuses and plugboards to use on his own equipment when touring the world. If one piece of equipment was at fault, it never took the lot down.
He was strongly recommending the British not to take up an inferior design and that the EU should adopt the best plug, not adopt an inferior design.
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Yes, I remember the talk about the standard Euro plug. It's good that they forgot about it!
Nobody has picked up the one test which the British plug fails when compared to US and some other plugs though.
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