24v relay circuit - elp!

[wade88]

Buy DOL & Star Delta Starters Reversing DOL starter,5.5kW 415Vac Telemecanique LE2GBKO55N7 online from RS for next day delivery.

there it is again

 

[Spoon]

Fortunately the item i have bought has forward/reverse and EM stop all pre-wired, it is a one stop solution,

IMO what you have is a Stop and not an Emergency Stop.
EM Stops should have a yellow background and may stop the motor differently to a normal stop. All depends on many factors..
These people are not giving you lots of info and at the end of the day you are putting your name down to the design. If anything goes wrong and someone gets injured then you are the one that everyone will be pointing their fingers at. "he designed it... its all his fault..."

 

[netblindpaul]

...This auger is not going for re-sale onto any markets, it is used in house by operators...

Wade if you read my post I never used the term "sale".
The statute law regarding this defines putting onto the market as putting into use, whether this be internal to the company who made it or not.

If you are building a machine for use in an enterprise of any sort it must comply with the requirements of the relevant new approach directives,etc. and the UK statute law that applies, e.g. EAWR, PUWER98 etc.

It matters not one little bit that it is the company who is designing & building the thing that is going to use it, the law states that it still MUST meet the requirements.
If you & your employer choose to commit criminal offences then it's your shout, but you should be aware of what you are letting yourself in for.

 

[C&H]

Wade if you read my post I never used the term "sale".
The statute law regarding this defines putting onto the market as putting into use, whether this be internal to the company who made it or not.

If you are building a machine for use in an enterprise of any sort it must comply with the requirements of the relevant new approach directives,etc. and the UK statute law that applies, e.g. EAWR, PUWER98 etc.

It matters not one little bit that it is the company who is designing & building the thing that is going to use it, the law states that it still MUST meet the requirements.
If you & your employer choose to commit criminal offences then it's your shout, but you should be aware of what you are letting yourself in for.

are you a glass half empty kinda guy lol

 

[wade88]

Wade if you read my post I never used the term "sale".
The statute law regarding this defines putting onto the market as putting into use, whether this be internal to the company who made it or not.

If you are building a machine for use in an enterprise of any sort it must comply with the requirements of the relevant new approach directives,etc. and the UK statute law that applies, e.g. EAWR, PUWER98 etc.

It matters not one little bit that it is the company who is designing & building the thing that is going to use it, the law states that it still MUST meet the requirements.
If you & your employer choose to commit criminal offences then it's your shout, but you should be aware of what you are letting yourself in for.

Sorry i just misunderstood your post mate.

Yea thats been drilled home well enough now. I understand the point your making.

I frankly was unaware it was a criminal offense to install a start stop circuit for an auger....all i am asking is how to integrate a 24v relay into that.

 

[wade88]

said with only the slightest sarcasm but genuinely, thats all that needs to be achieved here, i do not believe we are breaking the law. I must have explained the situation badly.

Tele, i have givurn upp on eforts to maintane reesonoble spellin and gramah. Cant be ahsed.

 

[netblindpaul]

Wade,
You are NOT "just" installing a start stop circuit, you are modifying safety systems in the control circuit.

If you have never been part of a serious accident investigation then think yourself lucky, once you have, you'll think differently, trust me.

You must realise that safety circuits are covered by statute law, and if an emergency stop is involved, then it is a safety circuit.

C&H,
NO I AM NOT A GLASS HALF EMPTY KIND OF GUY I DO THIS FOR A LIVING.
DON'T BE A***E.
When are you lot going to realise that safety systems are covered by things it seems that most members here don't understand.
Forget BS7671, this is not even relevant.
There is so much more to consider than the electrical side.

I can't believe that there are so many posters on here that obviously have no clue with regard to the design of safety related parts of control systems, yet you profess to be experts & do this all the time apparently.
I hope you have damn good PII, and that you can give your PI insurers the proof that you have undertaken due diligence when things go wrong, that you have access to all the relevant A, B & C standards for the equipment you are working on.

I am flabbergasted, is all I can say, this is unbelievable.

 

[Knobhead]

Ben, you seem to think Paul and I are out to get you.

Nothing could be further from the truth. My feeling are at the moment are that you can stew in your own juice.

I wash my hands of the whole affair.

 

[grantr37]

Wade, You are NOT "just" installing a start stop circuit, you are modifying safety systems in the control circuit. If you have never been part of a serious accident investigation then think yourself lucky, once you have, you'll think differently, trust me. You must realise that safety circuits are covered by statute law, and if an emergency stop is involved, then it is a safety circuit. C&H, NO I AM NOT A GLASS HALF EMPTY KIND OF GUY I DO THIS FOR A LIVING. DON'T BE A***E. When are you lot going to realise that safety systems are covered by things it seems that most members here don't understand. Forget BS7671, this is not even relevant. There is so much more to consider than the electrical side. I can't believe that there are so many posters on here that obviously have no clue with regard to the design of safety related parts of control systems, yet you profess to be experts & do this all the time apparently. I hope you have damn good PII, and that you can give your PI insurers the proof that you have undertaken due diligence when things go wrong, that you have access to all the relevant A, B & C standards for the equipment you are working on. I am flabbergasted, is all I can say, this is unbelievable.

I was thinking of around 30 pages of schematic diagrams, 10 pages of mechanical working diagrams, detailed risk assessments and statements (around 30 pages) a user manual (10 pages or so) a maintenance manual (25-30 pages) as well as various calculations and logic diagrams, code for the PLC, safety interlock designs, floor layout and working zone diagrams, assembly drawings, a PCB design and component layout.... End user operating manual and cleaning instructions, as well as modification to PLC firmware incorporating a maintenance and cleaning mode, also overload and jamming protection and end of shift lock off to securely power the unit off... then handing those documents and designs to the office to get somebody else higher up to seek advice off the back of them.... a lot of bother, can an off the shelf unit not be purchased? had a think about what netblindpaul said and maybe it would be unwise for one of us to design something over the internet when we don't know 100% for sure how it will end up getting changed around...can do without some factory worker getting turned into a box of biscuits....

 

[Knobhead]

Sorry i just misunderstood your post mate.

Yea thats been drilled home well enough now. I understand the point your making.

I frankly was unaware it was a criminal offense to install a start stop circuit for an auger....all i am asking is how to integrate a 24v relay into that.

So absolutely nothing has sunk in?

 

[cunnishaun]

...This auger is not going for re-sale onto any markets, it is used in house by operators...

Wade if you read my post I never used the term "sale".
The statute law regarding this defines putting onto the market as putting into use, whether this be internal to the company who made it or not.

If you are building a machine for use in an enterprise of any sort it must comply with the requirements of the relevant new approach directives,etc. and the UK statute law that applies, e.g. EAWR, PUWER98 etc.

It matters not one little bit that it is the company who is designing & building the thing that is going to use it, the law states that it still MUST meet the requirements.
If you & your employer choose to commit criminal offences then it's your shout, but you should be aware of what you are letting yourself in for.

Totally agree with this!! Would also like to add: emergency stops should not be wired through a plc, they should be wired through a safety relay ie piltz to stop the machine completely when pressed not just stop part of it!

 

[Spoon]

Would also like to add: emergency stops should not be wired through a plcQUOTE]

There are safety PLC's out there that can now be used along side ordinary PLC's in the same node. We use them on our controls.

Wade: We are not out to get you, just to give you some advice mate. If I was you I would leave the design of this down to someone else and you are doing a lot more than "to install a start stop circuit for an auger....all i am asking is how to integrate a 24v relay into that."
It is coming across that you are determined to do this project and I have to agree with Tony's post #30.

 

[wade88]

Woooooaahhhhh, lads, I don't think anyone is out to get me at all!!! I appreciate your input I haven't once said otherwise!!! Let's leave the mardy metaphors at home.

Look, I am not determined to have myself thrown in jail, nor determined to be sat in front of a judge for gross neglect resulting in manslaughter or whatever, there are still a few remaining boxes to be ticked on my lifes "to do list", rotting in prison is not one of them. Please don't mistake my bad sense of humour as being ungrateful for your input.

I don't want to stew in any juice thank you very much chaps!

Now i have listen to what you have said, and i will be regurgitating that same information to my boss and to do the machine builders who are pressuring me to do this and to every other bugger who is just expecting me to walk into this bear trap.

Thanks for the heads up guys thats why i posted to begin with and that is why i use this forum.

Can i get a troll badge like Biff please........

 

[wade88]

Ok so here we have the bits and pieces. The schneider box is what i have gone for, no EM stop, forward, reverse and stop functions. I also ordered 1 AC 24v mini relay contactor and 1 DC variant just incase, as i do not know what the signal command and a thermal overload.

Pictured also is the auger in question and its spec plate.

The aim as discussed and not to flog a stewing horse here...... :lipsrsealed2: .......... is to have this auger operating manually, and to also accept the 24v signal.

As we have all established, i do not know how to do this. Will not beat around that little bush, in my ignorance, i was hoping to include one of those mini contactors into the Schneider box upstream of the rest of the control gear.

This is all somewhat alien to me. It is not my area, their electrician will be present to assist but i also feel is trying to step away from any responsibility and just letting me hang.

 

[wade88]

The auger is going to be lifted up onto that big blue mixer where i will be welding the support legs onto it, it will then be feeding that ribbon mixer with the dry good that are manually loaded by the operator into the hopper just out the picture.

 

[SheffSimon]

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Ok so here we have the bits and pieces. The schneider box is what i have gone for, no EM stop, forward, reverse and stop functions. I also ordered 1 AC 24v mini relay contactor and 1 DC variant just incase, as i do not know what the signal command and a thermal overload.

Pictured also is the auger in question and its spec plate.

The aim as discussed and not to flog a stewing horse here...... :lipsrsealed2: .......... is to have this auger operating manually, and to also accept the 24v signal.

As we have all established, i do not know how to do this. Will not beat around that little bush, in my ignorance, i was hoping to include one of those mini contactors into the Schneider box upstream of the rest of the control gear.

This is all somewhat alien to me. It is not my area, their electrician will be present to assist but i also feel is trying to step away from any responsibility and just letting me hang.

Why no emergency stop? To have concluded that you must have done a risk assessment and concluded that any risks to human health were covered by mechanical guards etc and that nothing was left which required electrical controls reduce risk to a negligible level.

Dont be frightened off from doing a risk assessment, its a matter of looking at the process and equipment and first recording all the things which might injure a person - dont worry about equipment damage, thats not the purpose of the exercise. Then you attach a value to those risks - severity of injury, frequency of exposure, number of persons involved, likelyhood of occurence. You then set about reducing or eliminating the risks by designing out, mechanical guards etc. Emergency stop devices are the last option.

Then you're into required performance level of your circuits, and proving they meet that PL, which is the maths bit.

If you cant do the above, dont do what you are doing, get somebody else to do it. Legal requirements unfortunately, and any earlier posts recommending just wiring an estop in series with your stop pushbutton, are best ignored.

 

[wade88]

I'm getting a contact of mine in yea.

Few other issues to sort out around the place so will kill a few birds with one hand grenade.

I don't want any of this on my head.

 

[SheffSimon]

I'm getting a contact of mine in yea.

Few other issues to sort out around the place so will kill a few birds with one hand grenade.

I don't want any of this on my head.

Good choice, but still make sure its done properly and is documented.

 

[wade88]

Yea it will be.

Feel totally beaten this week. Too many things going wrong with machines and i just can't fix them. Outside my area of knowledge.

Going to have let the wife map read for a while so to speak and get some assistance.

Show me the beer. Jesus

 

[telectrix]

jesus was water into wine. beer was considered to be too bourgoise for the scibes and the pharisees.