3/5/13 Amp Fuses For Plugs And Fused Spurs...

[OnlQQker]

As most people really don't have an understanding of electricity whatsoever, and the amount of times I have come across the wrong size fuse in a plug or FCU.

I don't know but surely this should be addressed somehow.

Moulded plugs are all good as well on the new table lamp somebody has just purchased, but one day the fuse blows and a 13amp one is most of the time shoved back in.

Seems rather a deadly issue to me!

Just thinking out loud again.

 

[telectrix]

some numpty takes out a 3A fuse and replaces with a 13A. BOOM ...... Darwinism strikes again.

 

[Moley]

I agree. I have a friend (okay, hard to believe but it's true) that blew a 3A fuse in a plug. They replaced it with a 13A as 'I thought the higher number would be better'. I know some items come with little stickers on the plug giving the fuse size but how many people read that. But, apart from different physical sized fuses that will only fit into plugs for that size fuse, what can be done?

 

[telectrix]

But, apart from different physical sized fuses that will only fit into plugs for that size fuse, what can be done?

but we don't want firefighters on the dole through lack of work, do we?

 

[7029 dave]

some numpty takes out a 3A fuse and replaces with a 13A. BOOM ...... Darwinism strikes again.

Or some numpty puts a 3A fuse in a kettle or toaster pouf.

 

[Moley]

Or some numpty puts a 3A fuse in a kettle or toaster pouf.

Or wraps some foil around a blown fuse??

 

[7029 dave]

Or wraps some foil around a blown fuse??

Yep lol I was gonnar say that.

 

[Mike Johnson]

But, apart from different physical sized fuses that will only fit into plugs for that size fuse, what can be done?

That is a good idea, just think of all the work you can get changing every plug in your own house let alone in everyone else's, or would everyone just keep on using 13amp Hmmmm assuming they where the bigger size, no another thought make 13amp the smallest size so it does not fit the existing plugs, force change and built in obsolescence, now we are getting somewhere.

 

[Moley]

Right, we just need to get the London fire brigade to suggest it ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Do you mean that organisation that allowed a flammable material to be used as cladding on a tower block.

 

[Moley]

That's the boys. They seem pretty good at getting plastic changed to metal though.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think you have that backwards, the original design called for metal cladding with non flammable insulation between it and the building, the local authority and fire officer allowed the change which ultimately led to the disaster, no one learnt anything from the Oraglass incident at the Theme Park, think it was on the Isle of White.

 

[pc1966]

Not much can be done that has not already been done. Appliances have labels saying what fuse to use, the fuses are labelled and usually colour-coded as well, and 5 min on any web browser will pull up all you need to know about fuse ratings for all levels of knowledge. Not to mention the blindingly obvious of getting an electrician's help.

And yet idiots will be idiots. And I mean it. Not lack of knowledge, but an almost wilful attempt to avoid learning or accepting any answer that is not what they wanted to hear.

Sadly that goes far beyond the question of what replacement fuse to use.

 

[loz2754]

I think you have that backwards, the original design called for metal cladding with non flammable insulation between it and the building, the local authority and fire officer allowed the change which ultimately led to the disaster, no one learnt anything from the Oraglass incident at the Theme Park, think it was on the Isle of White.

That's the boys. They seem pretty good at getting plastic changed to metal though.

I think this referred to the change from plastic to metal consumer units...

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ah I was on a different tack altogether.

 

[Moley]

Ah I was on a different tack altogether.

You were sat on a drawing pin?

 

[Lister1987]

Its been raised numerous times with manufacturers to just provide them without fuses, you'd think they'd go for it as it saves them Dosh bit no

 

[Moley]

Its been raised numerous times with manufacturers to just provide them without fuses, you'd think they'd go for it as it saves them Dosh bit no

That would mean that people would just buy one size, 13A, and fit them to everything from the start.

 

[Moley]

Off on a tangent, what's the point of the plastic plug cover over the pins that's supplied with every new appliance? Straight into landfill once the item is unboxed.

 

[pc1966]

Off on a tangent, what's the point of the plastic plug cover over the pins that's supplied with every new appliance? Straight into landfill once the item is unboxed.

I think it is to stop the plug scoring the appliance when in the box, even though some boxes have nice separate areas to keep the cable & plug safe.

 

[GBDamo]

Do you mean that organisation that allowed a flammable material to be used as cladding on a tower block.

I disagree, the brigade no longer have the authority they once did.

Their sign off is little more than a paper exercise and a cursory once over these days so as long as you put a compliant spec in front of them they sign it off.

The dilution of the brigades role in fire worthiness inspecting has been a long, steady and slow affair to the point now I doubt very much they have sufficient expertise to carry out the role they once did.

Its how it seems to me anyhow.

 

[Lister1987]

I think you have that backwards, the original design called for metal cladding with non flammable insulation between it and the building, the local authority and fire officer allowed the change which ultimately led to the disaster, no one learnt anything from the Oraglass incident at the Theme Park, think it was on the Isle of White.

https://g.co/kgs/JmVKtA

A quick Google for those (like me) that don't know of the disaster, fire startedby kids discarded cigs,fuel fuelled greatly by the building materials

The local authority/fire officer allowing the change isn't exactly fair, it was Arconis that gave (or didn't as the case was,) updated test results from EU tests showing the Reybond PE (iirc) was in fact utter rubbish in terms of Fire Safety and because this information was withheld, the LA/FO acted on information at the time, which gave the material a better fire safety rating than it had and because of this no-one questioned it.

 

[telectrix]

Or wraps some foil around a blown fuse??

what's wrong with a 1" piece of 6.0mm screwd rod. -- perfect fit.

 

[Lister1987]

what's wrong with a 1" piece of 6.0mm screwd rod. -- perfect fit.

Foil is cheaper, they can reuse the discarded foil from thier heroin prep ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I disagree, the brigade no longer have the authority they once did.

Their sign off is little more than a paper exercise and a cursory once over these days so as long as you put a compliant spec in front of them they sign it off.

The dilution of the brigades role in fire worthiness inspecting has been a long, steady and slow affair to the point now I doubt very much they have sufficient expertise to carry out the role they once did
Its how it seems to me anyhow.

That's the point, at planning stage the fire brigade still have the responsibility to sign off the compliance to the regulations of the materials to be used and specified in the application, the specification of the cladding did not conform to the requirement of flame spread and has since been changed on a number of other tower blocks because of this.

 

[GBDamo]

I think you have that backwards, the original design called for metal cladding with non flammable insulation between it and the building, the local authority and fire officer allowed the change which ultimately led to the disaster, no one learnt anything from the Oraglass incident at the Theme Park, think it was on the Isle of White.

They allowed changes based on the advice given by the manufacturers, contractors and designers that it would still be compliant.

I would love the brigade to have the teeth it once had but it has been defanged, intentionally and for profit.

 

[GBDamo]

That's the point, at planning stage the fire brigade still have the responsibility to sign off the compliance to the regulations of the materials to be used and specified in the application, the specification of the cladding did not conform to the requirement of flame spread and has since been changed on a number of other tower blocks because of this.

My understanding was that it did comply but did not perform as specified because the test data had been fiddled.

Could be wrong, I'll have a Google, be right back.

 

[telectrix]

Foil is cheaper, they can reuse the discarded foil from thier heroin prep ?

but would the foil be able to cope with the load demanded by the cannabis plants growing in the attic?

 

[GBDamo]

Its the Gruniad so hold your nose...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/16/fire-test-for-grenfell-foam-cladding-panels-was-rigged-admits-ex-employee&ved=2ahUKEwijh8S9zf3tAhV5ThUIHeg6BQUQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1lxBcxDf5Jro-ZIIWdN2Dk&ampcf=1

 

[Moley]

what's wrong with a 1" piece of 6.0mm screwd rod. -- perfect fit.

What if they only have 1/4" rod?

 

[Moley]

but would the foil be able to cope with the load demanded by the cannabis plants growing in the attic?

Wrap it around twice.

 

[telectrix]

What if they only have 1/4" rod?

take the foil off of it.

 

[telectrix]

or, 1/4" being 6.3mm, it would be a tighter fit.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Its the Gruniad so hold your nose...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/16/fire-test-for-grenfell-foam-cladding-panels-was-rigged-admits-ex-employee&ved=2ahUKEwijh8S9zf3tAhV5ThUIHeg6BQUQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1lxBcxDf5Jro-ZIIWdN2Dk&ampcf=1

The last sentence is very telling:
The group has also said it promoted RS5000’s use on buildings that are taller than 18 metres only in a “rainscreen cladding system with the specific components”, used when it passed the fire safety test.
The inquiry continues.

 

[GBDamo]

The last sentence is very telling:
The group has also said it promoted RS5000’s use on buildings that are taller than 18 metres only in a “rainscreen cladding system with the specific components”, used when it passed the fire safety test.
The inquiry continues.

For sure, this is now in the hands of the courts to decide whose gobshite promised whom what.
But, my inclination is towards a sales driven decision rather than a safety driven one.

 

[telectrix]

For sure, this is now in the hands of the courts to decide whose gobshite promised whom what.
But, my inclination is towards a sales driven decision rather than a safety driven one.

and how may fat brown envelopes changed hands.

 

[Moley]

and how may fat brown envelopes changed hands.

Lets not be racist. White envelopes matter too.

 

[telectrix]

so do pink ones but we'll let the gender benders have sole use of them.

 

[littlespark]

That was a good idea earlier in the thread.... yes, I’ve read the whole thing.

a moulded plug is stuck to the appliance. Make fuses different sizes and have different sizes fuse clips within the plug so that only the right size fuse fits. Either diameter or length.
Only a problem when someone fits their own plug

 

[Moley]

Someone would still find a way. Makes me think of something 'Big Clive' took apart recently. If I remember correctly it was a chinese import. Even with the plug removed there was still continuity. The fuse was just there for show.
Here we go. Watch this.

 

[lozarus]

I have ----ed a theory around in my head, that this sort of thing is kind of a side effect of good intentions / regulated de-skilling. Stay with me on this -

So even as recently when I was young, appliances came without plugs. As such I was eventually taught to wore a plug and along with this given a loose guide on which fuse to select from the tobacco tin in the shed and why.

However, in an effort to eliminate the dangers of poorly wired plugs, plugs now come moulded. This means fuses are only seen if one fails (which for many consumers and items is quite rare) rather than being introduced to the user to actually make an appliance work - each time they buy an appliance, from heaters to lamps.

So because fuses are interacted with less and less due to plugs arriving pre-fitted, it's understandable that as time goes on, your average public member won't have any reason to understand the fuse. But if you have to install it yourself - you should understand.

Now of course there's holes in my theory. I mean I've seen countless poorly wired plugs fitted in the 60's/70's/80's, or items from the same era with the incorrect fuse fitted - but I do feel that by having a consumer install their own plug, there is a need for the education and thus people perhaps have a slightly greater chance of having to understand basic consumer electrical theory.

 

[Moley]

People are not willing to learn. If they buy an item without a plug they will just call on the guy down the pub/ bloke down the road to fit it and we all know how good that guy is. Let's be fair, most people don't even take the cardboard off the plug that tells you what fuse is in it. If they could they would plug it in with the (useless) plastic prong cover still on. I think that supplying without a plug would be a step backwards.

 

[pc1966]

Compared to wiring a plug there are far fewer and less dangerous things you can do with getting the wrong fuse. Worst case is a cable under-rated for a 13A fault clearance which is fire hazard in a range of high Zs cases when it fails the adiabatic limit.

Wiring a plug wrong allows a L/E swap. Why, Well brown is the colour of earth, isn't it?

To me what is more dengerous these days is the crap off eBay and the likes. Recently a friend of mine got various tablet computers and they came with (I think) USA adaptors and a unfused 13A converter for them. It even had under-sized pins. I told her to bin the adaptors and contact trading standards, but I doubt anything happened.

 

[OnlQQker]

In my eyes the problem shouldn't even exist anymore.

I don't feel its down to the customer to be clued up on how to change the fuse, I know nothing about Chlorine Trifluoride which to me is equally as dangerous.
But i can't just go and buy that off the shelf.

The fuse sizing mentioned here is a good idea and the only work around possibly.
Moulded plugs have stopped most people dabbling around with taking them off and putting them on to something else, though that has nowhere near eliminated the problem. It's almost like the moulded plugs should have a mini mcb built into it but perhaps that technology isn't here yet to make a switch/button so small.

To me it just seems like a really massive problem in a world of Electrics where we have some amazing safety devices and protective regulations.

My sister rang yesterday and said had I got any 13amp fuses, I asked her what it was for, she replied, 'my hairdyer' lol

 

[ian.settle1]

Right, we just need to get the London fire brigade to suggest it ?

And why just London Fire Brigade

 

[Lister1987]

And why just London Fire Brigade

Harking back to the AMD3. change to metal cu, believe it was LFBs persistence that made it go through.

came across this; https://electrical.------.org/wirin...tection-against-fire-the-fire-officer-s-view/

 

[static zap]

Is it true , most appliance cables now 0.75mm ?
Reason for 15A .. Fuse busting capability.
..Thanks to fuse less European plugs ...
(Dumbed down like somewhere else )

 

[telectrix]

a bit unrelated, but.... my lady's Ford (2012 vintage) has a BS1361 socket in back of centre console, so ther must be an inverter somewhere. it wasn't working. investigation found that the inverter was fed , along with the cig'lighter from a 10A fuse, which had blown. 10A@12V eaquates to 0.5A @ 240V. bloody pointless when the female of the species plugs in hair dryer/straighteners etc. it would even struggle to charge a mobile phone. what's the point?

 

[static zap]

some numpty takes out a 3A fuse and replaces with a 13A. BOOM ...... Darwinism strikes again.

Probably of an old laptop , they had the power mobile phones have now ! ( Fancy accesories -were Silly money )
... or other low current purposes ..The mind would boggle... ouch ...

 

[Darkwood]

I think there is somewhat of a confusing idea of plug top fuse rating here, for the majority of plug tops the fuse is simply there for short circuit protection and not overload as the majority of appliances would sit in the category of fixed load device/item.

If you actually look at old vacuum cleaners (bigger motors) or fridges etc you will note that the fuse (13amp) is larger than the rated current carrying capacity of the flex so for all purposes it cannot be there for overload protection as the flex would readily melt and short before the fuse popped, inrush on both these items limit the choice of fuse fitted to 10amp and 13amp but as we no longer recognise 10amps our PAT testing values then we see 13A been the fitted fuse of choice.

Noted here that this does not apply to extension with multiple outlets as this by its nature does need to overload protect the cable as it does not fit in the fixed load category even if items plugged in do, noted it is easy to plug in various heavy loads and exceed the flex rating so fusing needs to be correct.

Smaller fuse ratings are commonly put on electronic goods with low inrush and low current demands, it can be argued that it helps protect the electronics in the event of a S/C by reacting quicker but in truth a dead short will not be all too fussy at blowing a 13amp or a 3amp instantaneously and if a device has sensitive electronics then by good design it should have a quick acting fuse integral to the electronics.

The only risk of fire I see is if the load is not fixed which is rare in normal domestic items although those that carry say motors etc will have integral thermal protection anyway by design, a stalled motor should be protected in other ways than a plug top fuse.