415v 3 phase sockets and rcd protection.

[simpson93]

Afternoon all,

Looking for a little guidance, other than doing sub mains in armoured I don’t do much three phase work.

I’m looking to install some final
Circuits for some three phase cooking equipment but I find myself stuck on a few things, as the sockets will be over 16amp they will need to be rcd protected but I can’t seem to find anything to find a Hager board rcbo etc. What’s the best way to protect it?

Also generally if doing a three phase sub main I would take an additional earth as I’m not so keen on solely relying on the armoured earth. Do most people generally rely on the armoured earth or use 5core?

Thanks for your help

 

[westward10]

Hello why do you have a DIY tag on your banner?

 

[simpson93]

Hello why do you have a DIY tag on your banner?

Dunno

 

[westward10]

Are you an electrician?

 

[simpson93]

Are you an electrician?

Yep, memeber of the forum since 2010, seems to be a problem since the site was changed.

 

[westward10]

Yep, memeber of the forum since 2010, seems to be a problem since the site was changed.

Okay should be gone now.

 

[telectrix]

Okay should be gone now.

mod. witchycraft strikes again. .

 

[Charlie_]

I would do 1 of 2 things..
Don’t have the sockets protected by an RCD, subjust to a risk assessment or
Have the appliances hard wired into an isolator, negating the need for RCD protection, subject to installation methods.
You can have an RCD incomer protecting all circuits if necessary..
Have you done any adiabatics?

 

[davesparks]

Also generally if doing a three phase sub main I would take an additional earth as I’m not so keen on solely relying on the armoured earth. Do most people generally rely on the armoured earth or use 5core?

Sockets with RCDs built in are usually more readily available and a simpler solution than three phase RCBO's, these are often made up from add on modules and quite big taking up 6 ways in a DB.

This mostly comes down to the quality of the glands you use and your ability to fit them correctly. If you fit the correct gland properly then there will be no problem.

If fitting standard surface mount commando sockets with the plastic threaded entry there is rarely room to fit an earth connection to the SWA gland. You may need an adaptable box or besa box to gland the SWA to and make the earth connection or use 5 core cable.

 

[BrendonP]

For earthing glands i am using earth lock nuts most of the time now.

An example -

WISKA EN20 P NUT 20mm brass locking earth nut PIRANHA - Edwardes - https://www.edwardes.co.uk/en/products/wiska-en20-p-nut-20mm-brass-locking-earth-nut-piranha?utm_medium=google_shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-tXlBRDWARIsAGYQAmeN9Z9Jx_4XnSpqMDlLjwq56Hz4Pwu85dzG4rq9lTGRGB_FOPWeUIAaAtpaEALw_wcB

MCB in the board and RCD in the socket outlet is the standard way to do this i believe. Use a socket with a built in rotary isolator takes care of isolation as well.

 

[Charlie_]

Standard way is no RCD for that type catering equipment

 

[BrendonP]

? But socket outlets up to 32amp require RCD protection. Or is there a way around this ?

 

[davesparks]

Standard way is no RCD for that type catering equipment

Since when?

 

[Charlie_]

Commercial stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection.
Since it was first invented

 

[Charlie_]

? But socket outlets up to 32amp require RCD protection. Or is there a way around this ?

Yes there is

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Needs RCD protection, or a documented Risk Assessment which concludes RCD protection is not required.
Best bet is those RCD sockets.

 

[davesparks]

Commercial stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection.
Since it was first invented

Agreed, but socket outlets do require RCD protection.

 

[davesparks]

Yes there is

But why do you want to look for a way around it?

 

[Charlie_]

Im not looking for a way round it, just trying to emphasize that as agreed the stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection, it’s totally unnecessary..

 

[westward10]

He is installing a socket outlet.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Unless the Manufacturer’s Instructions say otherwise.
Stationary equipment commercial or domestic does not require RCD protection.
However BS7671 now requires all socket-outlets rated 32A and below to be provided with RCD protection unless in non-domestic installations, a documented Risk Assessment concluding RCD protection is provided.

“411.3.3 Additional requirements for socket-outlets and for the supply of mobile equipment for use outdoors
In AC systems, additional protection by means of an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA shall be provided for:
(i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A, and
(ii) mobile equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32A for use outdoors.
An exception to (i) is permitted where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is not necessary.

The requirements of Regulation 411.3.3 do not apply to FELV systems according to Regulation 411.7 or reduced low voltage systems according to Regulation 411.8.
NOTE 1: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.3.2 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping.
NOTE 2: See Appendix 2, item 11 in respect of risk assessment.
NOTE 3: A lighting distribution unit complying with BS 5733, luminaire track system, installation coupler, LSC or DCL is not regarded as a socket-outlet for the purposes of this regulation.”

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Im not looking for a way round it, just trying to emphasize that as agreed the stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection, it’s totally unnecessary..

You need to learn to read, before replying and disagreeing with people who can read.

 

[Charlie_]

Unless the Manufacturer’s Instructions say otherwise.
Stationary equipment commercial or domestic does not require RCD protection.
However BS7671 now requires all socket-outlets rated 32A and below to be provided with RCD protection unless in non-domestic installations, a documented Risk Assessment concluding RCD protection is provided.

“411.3.3 Additional requirements for socket-outlets and for the supply of mobile equipment for use outdoors
In AC systems, additional protection by means of an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA shall be provided for:
(i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A, and
(ii) mobile equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32A for use outdoors.
An exception to (i) is permitted where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is not necessary.

The requirements of Regulation 411.3.3 do not apply to FELV systems according to Regulation 411.7 or reduced low voltage systems according to Regulation 411.8.
NOTE 1: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.3.2 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping.
NOTE 2: See Appendix 2, item 11 in respect of risk assessment.
NOTE 3: A lighting distribution unit complying with BS 5733, luminaire track system, installation coupler, LSC or DCL is not regarded as a socket-outlet for the purposes of this regulation.”

Thanks for confirming what I previously said..
Very much appreciated

 

[Charlie_]

You need to learn to read, before replying and disagreeing with people who can read.

And it would appear that you need to understand what you are reading

 

[Charlie_]

He is installing a socket outlet.

He doesn’t need to.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

He doesn’t need to.

No he doesn’t, he can say: “Get someone else to do it.”

 

[Charlie_]

Or he can come on here and ask for advice on other ways to do the job, saving himself lots of unnecessary work and ultimately saving his client money..
Or you can carry on being obtuse and childish..
you have totally ruined this thread for the op and shown to me that you are very childish and petty

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As far as I can see, you’ve offered no constructive advice at all.
All you’ve done is disagree with people who have.
My advice has been to use a socket with built in RCD, rather than installing a hard to obtain RCD at the CU.
Another option would be to use 63A sockets.

As it stands I doubt anyone could legitimately produce a Risk Assessment which concludes RCD protection is not required.

 

[Charlie_]

As far as I can see, you’ve offered no constructive advice at all.
All you’ve done is disagree with people who have.
My advice has been to use a socket with built in RCD, rather than installing a hard to obtain RCD at the CU.
Another option would be to use 63A sockets.

As it stands I doubt anyone could legitimately produce a Risk Assessment which concludes RCD protection is not required.

I suggest you read back through the thread from the start!
I have only given constructive advice!
Please prove otherwise..
I have been involved in the installation and repair of commercial catering equipment for 25 years, I am an approved engineer for many brands.
What has been suggested is totally unnecessary..
just because you can’t do something doesn’t mean that it can’t be done, a risk assessment in this instance would be easy enough..
It’s stationary equipment that doesn’t need RCD protection

 

[davesparks]

Im not looking for a way round it, just trying to emphasize that as agreed the stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection, it’s totally unnecessary..

Or he can come on here and ask for advice on other ways to do the job, saving himself lots of unnecessary work and ultimately saving his client money..
Or you can carry on being obtuse and childish..
you have totally ruined this thread for the op and shown to me that you are very childish and petty

RCD protection isn't required for stationary equipment, this does not mean that it is totally unnecessary as you put it. RCD protection could still be installed for stationary equipment over and above the minimum standards set out in bs7671.

However the OP is installing socket outlets, we don't know why they are installing socket outlets, just that they are.
You've made the assumption that the cooking equipment is to be stationary equipment which could reasonably be permanently connected and that the OP is not working to a specification.