6kw sauna sharing cooker supply is it even a possibility??

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Discuss 6kw sauna sharing cooker supply is it even a possibility?? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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MickSmith5824

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Right this maybe a completely stupid idea....but, guy wants a 6kw pre built sauna in back garden. The fuseboard million miles to back of house so wiring new circuit would be a nightmare. But he does have a cooker supply right near back door of garden. I know it's deemed good practice to have cooker and sauna on own dedicated circuits but if come from cooker switch with adequate sized cable out to rotary switch for sauna and they was never used at same time could this not be a possibility? I have also heard mentioned before that in scenario like this a change over switch might be able to be used? And this would prevent both being used at same time. Could someone explain to me how this would work and how it would be installed. Thanks
 
MickSmith5824 said:
Right this maybe a completely stupid idea....but, guy wants a 6kw pre built sauna in back garden. The fuseboard million miles to back of house so wiring new circuit would be a nightmare. But he does have a cooker supply right near back door of garden. I know it's deemed good practice to have cooker and sauna on own dedicated circuits but if come from cooker switch with adequate sized cable out to rotary switch for sauna and they was never used at same time could this not be a possibility? I have also heard mentioned before that in scenario like this a change over switch might be able to be used? And this would prevent both being used at same time. Could someone explain to me how this would work and how it would be installed.
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no it can not be done, considering the loading.think about the loading.
 
Is the cooker on an RCD circuit?

Also what sort of distances and what cable is already in place? You need to check the voltage drop even though a change over switch would avoid the risk of cooker and sauna at the same time.

Does the sauna have lights? It might be a risk if someone changes back to use the cooker with folk in there. I'm not seeing this as a terribly good idea.
 
I will also say no this is not a good idea. It is bad practice to design a circuit with fixed loads that exceed the rating of the circuit.
MickSmith5824 said:
they was never used at same time
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You can't rely on a customer to ensure that.
MickSmith5824 said:
but if come from cooker switch with adequate sized cable
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A cooker switch is unlikely to be designed to accommodate 2 cables per terminal.
 
Would a shower priority relay do the job? It's rough as far as functionality goes - people wouldn't expect to have two seemingly unrelated things interlocked - but would solve the electrical objections.
 
pc1966 said:
Is the cooker on an RCD circuit?

Also what sort of distances and what cable is already in place? You need to check the voltage drop even though a change over switch would avoid the risk of cooker and sauna at the same time.

Does the sauna have lights? It might be a risk if someone changes back to use the cooker with folk in there. I'm not seeing this as a terribly good idea.
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The DB is rcd protected mate. The cooker is on 6mm and would say at most 10 metres in length. I would extend this in 4mm in swa to outside waterproof rotary switch. This additional length would be around 5 metres
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pc1966 said:
Is the cooker on an RCD circuit?
a change over switch would avoid the risk of cooker and sauna at the same time.
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freddo said:
A cooker switch is unlikely to be designed to accommodate 2 cables per terminal.
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Yeah very true Freddo ?
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Lucien Nunes said:
Would a shower priority relay do the job? It's rough as far as functionality goes - people wouldn't expect to have two seemingly unrelated things interlocked - but would solve the electrical objections.
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Have you got a link or description of these Lucien and how they could potentially be used. Thanks
 
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Where actually is the consumer unit - front of the house? If so, can you not run a new circuit in SWA down the side of the house and in to the front to the CU?
 
As above priority switch but I don’t think it’s something I’d want to be involved in....you mentioned 10 mtrs and 5 mtrs is that all the distance is to the consumer unit?...doesn’t seem far are you sure there’s no way to run a dedicated circuit? Outside building etc?
 
A two pole changeover switch would keep the two loads separate. But I think the whole thing would not be advisable in that it’s an unusual configuration and we can’t rely on the installation not being interfered with down the track ... just my 20p.
 
Depending on how it is enclosed/insulated 6mm T&E won't be suitable for 48A

But checking and/or replacing with 10mm would allow something like a 50A MCB at the CU if a lack of space is the reason for not running another circuit.
 
Ray Pooley said:
Worse case scenario perhaps 5kW cooker. Applying diversity calcs for the cooker/hot tub combo comes out a 48 VAC. That would suggest 50 or 63 amp MCB and 6 guage cable. My 10p worth.
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my computer say no, regulation 433.1.204 (iii) any power exceeding 2 kw on the own dedicated radail circuit ,does not include a 6 kw sauna .
 
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buzzlightyear said:
my computer say no, regulation 433.1.204 (iii) any power exceeding 2 kw on the own dedicated radail circuit ,does not include a 6 kw sauna .
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I do not have the regulation to hand but your interpretation means plugging a 3kw heater into a socket on a ring would be a breach of regulations.
A simple compliant and cheap solution to the OP's question has already been suggested, a 32a 2 pole changeover switch.
Why do some people get their knickers in a twist when something a bit out of the ordinary is suggested?
 
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433.1.204 is talking about ring circuits and there is no "(iii)" as such, but in Appendix 15 where it goes in to more detail it basically says not to hang big fixed loads such as cookers off a ring, and that is where the (iii) note it to be found.
 
IMG_20200410_174835.jpg what is saying wiether a ring or a radial it's is a judgment call on the spark to install the correct loading for a item. I can understand if you got a hob and a oven on the circuit then diversity would be applied not a sauna.
each spark that do not apply the regs is a bad one, but not all.
 
I don't see anything electrically wrong with a changeover switch for cooker or sauna, but operationally it seems a bizarre thing to do. In many houses I can think of where the oven refuses to work until the clock is set following power-off I can see all sorts of trouble brewing.

So far no word on why a new circuit is not practical though?
 
pc1966 said:
I don't see anything electrically wrong with a changeover switch for cooker or sauna, but operationally it seems a bizarre thing to do. In many houses I can think of where the oven refuses to work until the clock is set following power-off I can see all sorts of trouble brewing.

So far no word on why a new circuit is not practical though?
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I don't see why it isn't so long as the max load and diversity calcs are redone and any appropriate upgrade requirement they reveal are implemented as a result.
 
buzzlightyear said:
page 505 BBB.
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This is design options for general purpose socket circuits, not really applicable in this case.
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433.1.1
(i) The rated current or current setting of the protective device (In) is not less than the design current (Ib) of the circuit

Unlikely you'll make this circuit comply with this reg
 
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MickSmith5824 said:
Right this maybe a completely stupid idea....but, guy wants a 6kw pre built sauna in back garden. The fuseboard million miles to back of house so wiring new circuit would be a nightmare. But he does have a cooker supply right near back door of garden. I know it's deemed good practice to have cooker and sauna on own dedicated circuits but if come from cooker switch with adequate sized cable out to rotary switch for sauna and they was never used at same time could this not be a possibility? I have also heard mentioned before that in scenario like this a change over switch might be able to be used? And this would prevent both being used at same time. Could someone explain to me how this would work and how it would be installed. Thanks
Click to expand...

So the customer spends probably thousands on a hot tub and then wants to skimp on a few hundred quid to get power out to it, LOL!
 
Unreal some of the ideas people have.
Don't turn both on at once ? What sort of cowboy lunacy is that ?

The OP has not given any reason it can't be run back to the CU. First stated it's a million miles away then only 10m.

Is this a wind up thread ?
 
What the OP proposes is possible but totally impractical because sooner or later the client will want both appliances energised at once. I suspect he isn't overly experienced and the thought of installing a new supply over a million miles or ten metres is daunting. If he does it this way in a few years he will look back and think why on earth did I do that.
He hasn't been on since he posted so may be we will never know.
 
westward10 beat me to it!
Most of the 17th edition is carried on into the 18th, but for any new installation you would be judged solely on the 18th edition requirements.
 
westward10 said:
What the OP proposes is possible but totally impractical because sooner or later the client will want both appliances energised at once. I suspect he isn't overly experienced and the thought of installing a new supply over a million miles or ten metres is daunting. If he does it this way in a few years he will look back and think why on earth did I do that.
He hasn't been on since he posted so may be we will never know.
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That situation is factored into the max load and diversity calcs so it shouldn't be a problem so long as the results of those calculations are adhered to and catered for. Both devices are thermostatically controlled so the principle is that the situation you describe is unlikely to persist for any great length of time. For the duration of that condition the installation should be able to take it.
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westward10 said:
The difference is the 17th Ed is no longer a current standard.
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The 18th standard is the 17th standard plus mods and extras. It's not a complete rewrite. My question was in relation to the mods and extras.
 
Ray Pooley said:
The 18th standard is the 17th standard plus mods and extras. It's not a complete rewrite. My question was in relation to the mods and extras.
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I don't know if there is the equivalent of the Amendments to shows changed 17th to 18th, but I suspect not as the IET would risk losing sales that way!

The 18th has that sort of thing covered in the foreword and shows change bars on the pages so folk familiar with earlier versions can see if things have been updated, which is the opposite of what you want!
 
pc1966 said:
westward10 beat me to it!
Most of the 17th edition is carried on into the 18th, but for any new installation you would be judged solely on the 18th edition requirements.
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I was watching John Ward on his YouTube channel a while ago and I think he suggested that you can find the differences summarised somewhere on the internet. Are you aware of this? He was talking about the differences between the 17th and the previous edition.
I 'll see if I can find it.
 
Ray Pooley said:
That situation is factored into the max load and diversity calcs so it shouldn't be a problem so long as the results of those calculations are adhered to and catered for. Both devices are thermostatically controlled so the principle is that the situation you describe is unlikely to persist for any great length of time. For the duration of that condition the installation should be able to take it.
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The 18th standard is the 17th standard plus mods and extras. It's not a complete rewrite. My question was in relation to the mods and extras.
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My point was if you fit a change over switch it is not possible to have them both on at the same time.
 
Dedicated circuit, there is no other solution IMO.

Some might say if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing wrong with a nail to short and a screw to long Cowboys. ha ha (who remembers that TV series in the 70's)
 
7029 dave said:
Dedicated circuit, there is no other solution IMO.

Some might say if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing wrong with a nail to short and a screw to long Cowboys. ha ha (who remembers that TV series in the 70's)
Click to expand...

Used to love that as a kid. Watched one the other day on YouTube, and let's just say it haven't aged as well as some sitcoms!
 
MickSmith5824 said:
Right this maybe a completely stupid idea....but, guy wants a 6kw pre built sauna in back garden. The fuseboard million miles to back of house so wiring new circuit would be a nightmare. But he does have a cooker supply right near back door of garden. I know it's deemed good practice to have cooker and sauna on own dedicated circuits but if come from cooker switch with adequate sized cable out to rotary switch for sauna and they was never used at same time could this not be a possibility? I have also heard mentioned before that in scenario like this a change over switch might be able to be used? And this would prevent both being used at same time. Could someone explain to me how this would work and how it would be installed. Thanks
Click to expand...
Unless the sauna stove manufacturer recommends it the stove should not be installed with RCD protection because of water being thrown on the stones and elements will trip it frequently. See Harvia.fi for installation instructions.
 
MickSmith5824 said:
Right this maybe a completely stupid idea....but, guy wants a 6kw pre built sauna in back garden. The fuseboard million miles to back of house so wiring new circuit would be a nightmare. But he does have a cooker supply right near back door of garden. I know it's deemed good practice to have cooker and sauna on own dedicated circuits but if come from cooker switch with adequate sized cable out to rotary switch for sauna and they was never used at same time could this not be a possibility? I have also heard mentioned before that in scenario like this a change over switch might be able to be used? And this would prevent both being used at same time. Could someone explain to me how this would work and how it would be installed. Thanks
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Yes Correct Completely stupid idea
 

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