Discuss another perspective on comparing different brands of panels in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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So having had a bit of time to play with a loaned laptop running PV Sol I decided to analyse some 4 kWp systems using differrent panels all using an SMA SB 4000TL inverter. Here's a summary table.

qtypanelwattkWpPV SolsizeareatheoreticalPV Sol%
efficiencyefficiency
16Sanyo HIT-H250E01250400040501610*8611.38621180.3182.6101.3%
16Trina TSM-DC05 230230368034071650*9921.6368140.5130.192.6%
16Sharp NU-E245J5245392036291652*9941.642088149.2138.192.6%
16Yingli YL-250Wp250400037221650*9901.6335153.0142.493.1%
16Suntech STP250S-20 Wd Plus250400039531655*9911.640105152.4150.698.8%
16WINAICO WSP-240 Wp M6240384038841650*9991.64835145.6147.3101.1%
16Upsolar UP-M230P230368036051640*9921.62688141.4138.598.0%
16Solarworld 240240384038331675*10011.676675143.1142.999.8%
16znshine ZX250(48)MS250400038401575*10821.70415146.7140.896.0%





The columns qty, panel, watts and kWp are self explanatory.
The next column (PV Sol) is the suggested annual output from PV Sol in kWh for my potential installation location and azimuth and roof angles.
The next column is the physical size of each panel in mm (HxW).
The next column is the size in square metres.
The next column is the theoretical efficiency - simply the rated output divided by the panel's area. This is often what's quoted as a panel's efficiency.
The next column is little bit of apples and oranges; I've divided PV Sol's annual output by the number of panels and then by area of one panel to get an annual efficiency figure. I.e. how many kWh does PV Sol think 1 sq metre of that panel will generate over the course of a year.
And the last column is my annual efficiency column divided by the theoretical efficiency expressed as a percentage. Sort of a measure of how well a panel really does as opposed to what the manufacturer claims.

So what does this say?

Sanyo panels are the most space efficient but that's fairly common knowledge.
Sanyo panels also appear to perform slightly better than stated. The previously unknown to me Winaico panels also appear to do well but I can't find out much about them other than someone else asked about them today.
Suntech, Upsolar and Solar World panels are in a cluster of similarly performing panels.
Trina, Yingli and Sharp are in the bottom cluster.

And the proverbial $64 question - are Sanyo panels worth paying extra for as compared to those in the lowest cluster? They would appear to generate 10% more over the course of a year so will generate the same in 9 years as the lower cluster panels do in 10. Given the rising fit rates the answer would seem to be yes.

The 2nd question - are Sanyo panels worth paying more for when compared to the middle cluster? Probably not unless you're space constrained (a 4 kWp Sanyo system will use 4 sq metres less roof space than, for example, a Suntech system).

The health warnings:
This data is only as accurate as the PV Sol model - does anyone know where the model gets its performance predictions for different panels from?
Different panels from the same brand may not perform identically so don't necessarily jump to conclusions about one brand versus another.
This is obviously only a small subset of the panels available on the market.
 
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This data is only as accurate as the PV Sol model - does anyone know where the model gets its performance predictions for different panels from?

I believe the manufacturers input their data onto the PV Sol database - this data is then checked by the team and then the user database is updated.
 
Very useful table, thanks. I don't suppose you could add znshine panels to that list for comparison? - you've coincidentally included all the one's I've had quotes for (to install) except those.
 
As far as I can see from the demo, PVsol has data for the output of the panel at STC and at a lower light intensity. It also has temp. coefficient data. It would appear to extrapolate the output at other intensities from this (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

It would be interesting if anyone can shed any light on how accurate this model is in practice.
 
Hi,

A friend told me this morning about this thread. Let me introduce myself, I'm Mike Doherty and I work for WINAICO in the UK.

WINAICO is a major brand in German, selling direct to installers and we are looking to replicate this model in the UK. As you can see from the analysis done by liquidity, our panels perform well under PV*Sol. This increased performance over other panels, can also be proven by various installed systems currently being independently monitored, with the results available on-line.

Details of our panels, including the enhanced insurance scheme, can be found at www.winaico.com.

In addition to the standard polycrystalline panels, we supply monocrystalline panels and a range of black panels.

I can also be contacted at [email protected] or 07952 426080, if you have any questions or want to discuss working with WINAICO

Regards

Mike Doherty
 
This increased performance over other panels, can also be proven by various installed systems currently being independently monitored, with the results available on-line.

Hi Mike what's the online results url please (web address)

Thx
 
Hi,

It's a different site to the Photon results, although thank you for publishing them ;-). I am happy to PM people with the link to the real-time monitoring site. I don't feel that posting it on the forum is the right thing to do. The forum is for installers, electricians, etc to share information, such as your original PV*Sol findings. It may not be appropriate for manufactures / distributors to openly sell to the community via the forums.

Mike
 
Could you add REW 230W UM96 to the table please.
They advertise a power tolerance of +7 to +12% which could make them a good competitor to the Sanyo 250W
Thanks
 
qtypanelwattkWpPV SolsizeareatheoreticalPV Sol%
efficiencyefficiency
16Sanyo HIT-H250E01250400040501610*8611.38621180.3182.6101.3%
16Trina TSM-DC05 230230368034071650*9921.6368140.5130.192.6%
16Sharp NU-E245J5245392036291652*9941.642088149.2138.192.6%
16Yingli YL-250Wp250400037221650*9901.6335153.0142.493.1%
16Suntech STP250S-20 Wd Plus250400039531655*9911.640105152.4150.698.8%
16WINAICO WSP-240 Wp M6240384038841650*9991.64835145.6147.3101.1%
16Upsolar UP-M230P230368036051640*9921.62688141.4138.598.0%
16Solarworld 240240384038331675*10011.676675143.1142.999.8%
16znshine ZX250(48)MS250400038401575*10821.70415146.7140.896.0%
16REW 230230368037671575*10821.70415135.0138.2102.4%


REW 230 panels added
 
I have been offered the BLD 250w panels. I've not come across these anywhere before. Could they be added to the list and does anyone have any experience with them?
 
please could you Suntech's PlutoAde-200s to your table, i'm thinking that 20 of these would be better than 16 STP250S-20 Wd, and cheaper if i had to replace any.
thanks.
 
Hi,
Is there any chance you could possibly add Bisol 245w panels to this list so I can compare to Sanyo and Suntech please. Greatly appreciated.
 
Hi,

Just noticed that you have the WINAICO mono panels in the table. Would you be able to add the 235W or 240W poly. These panels have very good performance in UK light conditions (out performing some well know mono panels!) and are a more cost effective option.

Thanks in advance.

Mike Doherty
WINAICO
07952 426080
 
Why do you lot seem to give a damn what PVSOL says? It is meaningless. It's a computer programme that uses manufacturers STC data - this has very little to do with what actually happens in the real world!!

We do not live in a lab where irradiance is constantly 1000W/m2 and the temp is 25 degrees!!
 
Sanyo panels are not part of Photon because they sell due to their high efficiency. People just love this fact and it sells them panels.

If they put their HIT's into photon the odds are that they will not give a better yield per KWp than anything else and very probably will not be near the likes of Siliken and REC at the very top. It's too risky for them.
 
Why do you lot seem to give a damn what PVSOL says? It is meaningless. It's a computer programme that uses manufacturers STC data - this has very little to do with what actually happens in the real world!!

We do not live in a lab where irradiance is constantly 1000W/m2 and the temp is 25 degrees!!

Frankly, your contribution to this forum appears to be less than helpful. I suspect your motivation is on pushing UpSolar panels and your own agenda.

Pv Sol doesn't just rely on STC data and I suspect you have less than no knowledge of how the software works. If you have something insightful to offer then I'd be delighted and very surprised to hear it.
 
Actually Sanyo are one of the few people that actually quote output under NOCT (Nominal Operating Cell Temperature, aka Normal Operating Conditions) if you look at their brochure,

NOCT for the HIT-N240SE10 you'll find amongst all the data that Maximum power (Pmax) is only 185W
with Cells at 44 degrees C and irradiance down at 800W/m2 so much more like real life. Not many other panel manufacturers are prepared to divulge that additional information.
 
Apologies if I was a little short in my previous email however I really don’t see why people are using PVSOL to select their modules. Think what you like about me being on an agenda but here is my logic....

I will try to be more insightful for you BigsSolar…..

I do get your point Worcester RE: NOCT, but this is still just a fixed value, what about when the panel is at -15 and 600W/M2 or +70 and 1300W/m2.

The point is that the operating environment continually changes and it's what happens in real life that is important not what a software programme predicts (incidentally we do actually use PV Sol). You may argue that they have included the manufacturers temperature co-efficient data in their calcs, but this is just temperature, it doesn't factor in the irradiance level variation.

This is why I don’t consider it good practice to go on what a computer model predicts. Surely it’s far, far better to take an independent outdoor field test late Photons to see what actually happens throughout the year in a climate much like ours.

We only install a few types of module one of which is REC and they do divulge NOCT data - I can't comment on many other brands. We do not currently install Up Solar (who actually include NOCT data), but are considering them due to their price, long warranty, photon performance and the fact they use high quality European components.

I would suggest that due to the competitive nature of the PV module market a lot of Western brands will continue to go under. Unfortunately it might be wise getting in with a decent Chinese manufacturer (they do exist) early as they are the ones that can afford to cut module prices and stay in business.

This is not a sales pitch it is a fact.

I stand by my opinion of Sanyo hybrid modules, actually this admittedly limited data from Sheffield Uni backs up what I am saying about yield per kWp. It doesn’t seem any better than the ‘average’ standard pure silicone based module.

Microgeneration Data
 
Apologies if I got your back up BiggsSolar, perhaps I was a little brash. However I do stand by my guns.

Worcester - we mainly install REC and they provide NOCT data, so too do Up Solar who we are considering at the moment (BiggSolar please feel free to think what you like about any ulterior motive).

Whilst NOCT gives an additional benchmark to compare modules it is ultimately still only a snapshot at 44 degrees and 800w/m2. What happens when the temperature is -15 and irradiance 500 w/m2 or conversely temperature 60 degrees and 1300 w/m2?

In addition to including the above, PV Sol may also include the manufactures temperature co efficient but this is just a temperature coefficient at 1000w/m2, it doesn’t really mean much in the real world.

The point I was making is that real world module performance is not easy to model on a computer. Especially when the raw module data is not independent – it’s derived from manufacturers data sheets. So why does everyone get hung up on a computer model?

I would have thought a far, far better way to decide which modules are worth installing is to look at outdoor field data, such as Photon International.

Those who rate Sanyo hybrids may find this data from Sheffield University interesting….

Microgeneration Data

Though admittedly a new study, it basically shows per kWp installed there is little or no difference between monos, polys and hybrids.
 
NOCT data is also published for WINAICO panels.

Picking up on some of the points raised by malibu, there are a number of issues to be considered when choosing panels in addition to spec sheet data. It is important to understand the quality of the product. For example all WINAICO panels are electroluminescently tested before leaving the factory in addition to the standard flash testing. This testing is performed to detect micro cracks.

Mike Doherty
WINACIO
[email protected]
07952 426080
 
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When I was comparing panels I threw together this spreadsheet to compare different panels drop in output with temperature (just based on manufacturers claims of power coefficient / c). Might be of interest (or for comment if I've got something wrong / misunderstood the specs...)
 

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qtypanelwattkWpPV SolsizeareatheoreticalPV Sol%
efficiencyefficiency
16Sanyo HIT-H250E01250400040501610*8611.38621180.3182.6101.3%
16Trina TSM-DC05 230230368034071650*9921.6368140.5130.192.6%
16Sharp NU-E245J5245392036291652*9941.642088149.2138.192.6%
16Yingli YL-250Wp250400037221650*9901.6335153.0142.493.1%
16Suntech STP250S-20 Wd Plus250400039531655*9911.640105152.4150.698.8%
16WINAICO WSP-240 Wp M6240384038841650*9991.64835145.6147.3101.1%
16Upsolar UP-M230P230368036051640*9921.62688141.4138.598.0%
16Solarworld 240240384038331675*10011.676675143.1142.999.8%
16znshine ZX250(48)MS250400038401575*10821.70415146.7140.896.0%
16REW 230230368037671575*10821.70415135.0138.2102.4%
16BLD Solar Europe BLD250-60M250400037351650x9921.6368152.7142.693.4%
16Suntech PlutoAde-200200320031411580x8081.27664156.7153.898.2%
16Bisol BMO/245245392037361649x9911.634159149.9142.995.3%
16WINAICO WSP-240 Wp P6240384039221665*9991.663335144.3147.4102.1%

Finally got loan of the PV Sol laptop again so more panels added. Note the Suntech PlutoAde-200 was modelled using an SMA 3000TL.
 
Liquidity,
I'd be really grateful if you could add Hyundai HiS S250MG panels to your list and also out of interest if you could also add the Sharp NU-R250 J5 panels.
I am very interested in the Hyundai due to the lack of availability of the Suntech 250s and the Sharp ones seem to pop up although I suspect them to be less efficient than the Hyundais whilst being more expensive.
Also I don't know the difference between Sharp NU-E*** and Sharp NU-R*** series.
Thanks in advance,
and.
 
I'd be really grateful if you could add Hyundai HiS S250MG panels and also the LG 250M1C panels ... trying to keep this excellent tread going!
 
NOCT data is also published for WINAICO panels.

Picking up on some of the points raised by malibu, there are a number of issues to be considered when choosing panels in addition to spec sheet data. It is important to understand the quality of the product. For example all WINAICO panels are electroluminescently tested before leaving the factory in addition to the standard flash testing. This testing is performed to detect micro cracks.

Mike Doherty
WINACIO
[email protected]
07952 426080

Isn't this a standard test for MCS certified panels amongst many other tests prior to release?
 
Are yes good old marketing, like Kraft Slices, once they'd said "Pint of Milk in every slice" everyone believed them, - that's what all cheese takes, they just said it!
 
Flashing testing is a MCS requirements, but unless I am mistaken electroluminescent testing isn't. Happy for someone with more knowledge to confirm or otherwise.
 
Apologies if I got your back up BiggsSolar, perhaps I was a little brash. However I do stand by my guns.

Worcester - we mainly install REC and they provide NOCT data, so too do Up Solar who we are considering at the moment (BiggSolar please feel free to think what you like about any ulterior motive).

Whilst NOCT gives an additional benchmark to compare modules it is ultimately still only a snapshot at 44 degrees and 800w/m2. What happens when the temperature is -15 and irradiance 500 w/m2 or conversely temperature 60 degrees and 1300 w/m2?

In addition to including the above, PV Sol may also include the manufactures temperature co efficient but this is just a temperature coefficient at 1000w/m2, it doesn’t really mean much in the real world.

The point I was making is that real world module performance is not easy to model on a computer. Especially when the raw module data is not independent – it’s derived from manufacturers data sheets. So why does everyone get hung up on a computer model?

I would have thought a far, far better way to decide which modules are worth installing is to look at outdoor field data, such as Photon International.

Those who rate Sanyo hybrids may find this data from Sheffield University interesting….

Microgeneration Data

Though admittedly a new study, it basically shows per kWp installed there is little or no difference between monos, polys and hybrids.



Clearly there is no better way of testing than putting all the panels in a field adding the same shading, changing their orientation annually, taking in to consideration on those annual figures the fact that the panels have now degraded a bit, also altering their pitch too, perhaps pitch & orientation could be changed on alternate years, then we could move the shading across the panels in an infinite number of different ways, move the whole installation a few miles east to that valley where they're not getting so much morning/evening sun, wiping away a few clouds to allow for the extra light due to the valley being in the rain shadow etc etc etc... We'll also have to check that we're being fair by using flash tested panels that give the exact output, i.e. 0%+/- tolerance.

What PV Sol does do is create a level playing field for all panels to perform on. None of our customers installations are exactly alike and we can see that different situations demand different panels. Our desire is to give our customers an informed choice and without going through the millenia of testing that we'd have to do with the field testing you suggest... it's the best information we have.

That's why we're raving about PV Sol!

- - - Updated - - -

oh I didn't mention that we'd have to do the exact same test with every different inverter on the market.......... I know there's a lot I've missed out but you get the picture.
 

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