Apprenticesxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Pete999]

Am I out of touch with modern trends? don't answer that if you can't be nice.
I see a lot of threads, enquiring about "how do I get an Apprenticeship" and "I'm an Adult Apprentice"
Have things changed? daft question really of course they have, with the onset of short courses etc, I'm not having a dig at short courses, honestly, I just cant understand, how Guys and Gals are searching pillar to post foe Apprenticeships.
There are those who will say "things have moved on Pete" but many of the larger Electrical Companies treat Apprenticeships as what they are, a commitment to someone who is willing to train, work for low wages for a period of time and eventually learn a trade, qualify properly, and become Electricians, you hear of people moving from one post to another for an Apprentice position.
Can someone please explain, to someone Old School, how the Apprentice thing works these days, because I'm lost.
I can understand people with commitments, trying the short course route, I don't personally like it but, it's the new wave I presume, I was indentured for 6 years, this must have changed, so will someone please explain to an on fart how it works these days, much appreciated in advance, just to ease my furrowed brow, and ease an Old timers worries. please.

 

[telectrix]

the problem as i see it, pete is twofold.

1. companies are not prepared to train up apprentices when they can get cannon fodder on min. wage.

2. would be apprentices aren't willing to work for 4/5 years for peanuts when their mates are earning 3 x as much unskilled labour.

 

[Pete999]

the problem as i see it, pete is twofold.

1. companies are not prepared to train up apprentices when they can get cannon fodder on min. wage.

2. would be apprentices aren't willing to work for 4/5 years for peanuts when their mates are earning 3 x as much unskilled labour.

As I expected Tel, doesn't give you much confidence does it, bout time HMG did something about it don't you think, sorry they have their heads buried in the trough, to worry about things like this, a sad reflection.

 

[richy3333]

Pete, I can only speak for Scotland so here is my experience as I am putting a lad through it at the moment.

SECT run the training programmes and they are funded principally by the Scottish Government. SECT are part of SELECT.

My apprentice is 26 and a good lad. He is on below minimum wage for the 1st year regardless if he is at college or working with me. Pay rates are in line with SJIB. The course is 3 years but can extend to 4 if the apprentice struggles. It is run in blocks, roughly 4 or 5 weeks at a time and then he is back with me on the tools for 5 or 6 weeks. Alternating between the two. It's intensive and hard work at college. They are constantly assessed and I and the lecturers have access to an online software so I can see how he is doing and ask questions etc.

So far in year one he has done electrical theory, circuit designs and calls. Workshop wise tray, trunking and conduit. Metal and plastic. Last week it was plastic. Here's a pic of what he did in his bay.

Because the money is so bad I have helped him in other ways He's expected to also buy all his own hand tools! I've gotten most of them for him and I have to say CEF and YESS have also supplied some stuff FOC.

Any questions, just ask....

 

[magnoliafan89]

I trained as a mature apprentice in my late 20s and i noticed the one trend among some of my younger classmates and eventually myself was that a lot of companies are willing to take you on but use you as cheap labour. One lad spent a year in one post and never did more than tidy up after the electrician, he wasnt ever invited to watch what he was doing or help. Companies will also stop you from going to college or meeting with assesors to go over portfolio work.
It can be quite demotivating when you realise that someone doesnt care about giving you a proper education. I was lucky in the sense that i did a lot of hard work in the evenings (being older gave me the understanding this was important) but id also book days off so i could attend college meetings on my own time eventually leaving the old company for my present who were very eager to have me as an electrician rather than an apprentice.

Mind saying this i do know of some young lads who wanna ride the easy train for the 4 years instead of putting the effort in.
.more fool them

 

[Pete999]

I trained as a mature apprentice in my late 20s and i noticed the one trend among some of my younger classmates and eventually myself was that a lot of companies are willing to take you on but use you as cheap labour. One lad spent a year in one post and never did more than tidy up after the electrician, he wasnt ever invited to watch what he was doing or help. Companies will also stop you from going to college or meeting with assesors to go over portfolio work.
It can be quite demotivating when you realise that someone doesnt care about giving you a proper education. I was lucky in the sense that i did a lot of hard work in the evenings (being older gave me the understanding this was important) but id also book days off so i could attend college meetings on my own time eventually leaving the old company for my present who were very eager to have me as an electrician rather than an apprentice.

Mind saying this i do know of some young lads who wanna ride the easy train for the 4 years instead of putting the effort in.
.more fool them

Thanks for the replies, seems cash rules over quality.

 

[Loki]

I'm a 43yr old adult apprentice.
I agree that wages are rubbish in the 1st year & it makes it hard to pay the bills etc, especially as a single parent.
1st year is basically H&S, wiring circuits, conduit, trunking, gaining practical work experience etc.

This year we've so far covered the design, planning & overseeing.
We're currently working on science principles & will finish off this year with the 18th edition.

Next year is fault finding and testing & inspection - As I've already got my 2391-52 I just need to do the practicals, I've already started doing my NVQ portfolio sections & am hoping to save a year off the apprenticeship by getting this done asap.

4th year is technically for finishing your portfolio & then the AM2S test.

Personally, I think adult apprentices are better as they appreciate the opportunity given to them plus they work & study harder. Most of the young lads at college just want to mess around & don't always want to be there as they have been pushed into going by family etc.

 

[magnoliafan89]

I'm a 43yr old adult apprentice.
I agree that wages are rubbish in the 1st year & it makes it hard to pay the bills etc, especially as a single parent.
1st year is basically H&S, wiring circuits, conduit, trunking, gaining practical work experience etc.

This year we've so far covered the design, planning & overseeing.
We're currently working on science principles & will finish off this year with the 18th edition.

Next year is fault finding and testing & inspection - As I've already got my 2391-52 I just need to do the practicals, I've already started doing my NVQ portfolio sections & am hoping to save a year off the apprenticeship by getting this done asap.

4th year is technically for finishing your portfolio & then the AM2S test.

Personally, I think adult apprentices are better as they appreciate the opportunity given to them plus they work & study harder. Most of the young lads at college just want to mess around & don't always want to be there as they have been pushed into going by family etc.

Agreed ive managed to complete my apprentice in 2 of the 4 years i was given and thats only cause i was determined to.

 

[Blissof89]

I honestly think there should be more regulation on who can employ an apprentice. The guy I did mine with was very neat and thorough in his work but had no idea when it came to test and inspection. IR, continuity of RFC and RCD tests was about as far as he went.

I remember once getting sent to a house we had rewired to do the 'testing' because they had asked for a certificate and he was clueless and seemed to think that with my very limited experience of test and inspection from day release at college i was more able to carry out the task. I think I did an IR test and continuity of RFC because that was all i could remember and got outta there.

My new firm are great and got me updated to 17th Ed Amd 3 (I did my apprenticeship on 16th ) shortly after starting and I've just done my 2391-52 practice assessment today . It baffles me looking back how he got away with never testing his work correctly and no one pulling it up, I assume he is still doing the same thing to this day.

 

[richy3333]

In Scotland with SECT the apprentice must be employed by either an NICEIC or SELECT approved contractor to stop this happening.

 

[Pete999]

I'm a 43yr old adult apprentice.
I agree that wages are rubbish in the 1st year & it makes it hard to pay the bills etc, especially as a single parent.
1st year is basically H&S, wiring circuits, conduit, trunking, gaining practical work experience etc.

This year we've so far covered the design, planning & overseeing.
We're currently working on science principles & will finish off this year with the 18th edition.

Next year is fault finding and testing & inspection - As I've already got my 2391-52 I just need to do the practicals, I've already started doing my NVQ portfolio sections & am hoping to save a year off the apprenticeship by getting this done asap.

4th year is technically for finishing your portfolio & then the AM2S test.

Personally, I think adult apprentices are better as they appreciate the opportunity given to them plus they work & study harder. Most of the young lads at college just want to mess around & don't always want to be there as they have been pushed into going by family etc.

That's Great to hear Loki, but are you doing this in employment, or off your own back, with College involvement? hope you don't mind me asking, not in any way to denigrate you endeavors, I'm just intrigued as to how the apprenticeship you are undertaking works, thanks for your reply.

 

[Blissof89]

I completed my apprenticeship in 2010 so the rules may have changed now.

 

[Loki]

That's Great to hear Loki, but are you doing this in employment, or off your own back, with College involvement? hope you don't mind me asking, not in any way to denigrate you endeavors, I'm just intrigued as to how the apprenticeship you are undertaking works, thanks for your reply.

Thats fine no worries asking.
I started originally on an EAL apprenticeship through Clarkson Evans but the i decided to leave half way through due to issues with them. I then couldnt get C&G to transfer my EAL exams over was just going round & round getting nowhere, so i then paid to do some C&G courses ie 2382-15, 2392-10 & the 2391-52. It took me just over a year to find another company to take me on as an apprentice & the training provider decided to put in at year 2. I still count myself lucky cos I was starting to feel low getting rejected by companies as soon as they found out my age. but looking positive Im getting there & I can see that AM2S getting closer lol

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for all the replies, wish this could go further up the ladder to the powers that be, seems as though many employers treat an Apprenticeship as an excuse for cheap labour, and as for post 9 that just about sums it up, comments if you wish.

 

[KWCFC]

The company I served my time with often hired apprentices, used them as cheap labour for 4 years and then laid them off once they was qualified. Then hired another apprentice to replace.

Fair enough it got me my papers but I hated working for them a*seholes.

 

[Squid]

The company I served my time with often hired apprentices, used them as cheap labour for 4 years and then laid them off once they was qualified. Then hired another apprentice to replace.

Fair enough it got me my papers but I hated working for them a*seholes.

Most companies did that as if you stayed in employment for an extra day or week then the time of your apprenticeship counted towards your redundancy.

Did my time at EIL in Victoria, got laid off whilst working at the V+A when my time was up, a week later I was working on a site for Matthew Hall at London Wall.

 

[jamie-spark]

Am I out of touch with modern trends? don't answer that if you can't be nice.
I see a lot of threads, enquiring about "how do I get an Apprenticeship" and "I'm an Adult Apprentice"
Have things changed? daft question really of course they have, with the onset of short courses etc, I'm not having a dig at short courses, honestly, I just cant understand, how Guys and Gals are searching pillar to post foe Apprenticeships.
There are those who will say "things have moved on Pete" but many of the larger Electrical Companies treat Apprenticeships as what they are, a commitment to someone who is willing to train, work for low wages for a period of time and eventually learn a trade, qualify properly, and become Electricians, you hear of people moving from one post to another for an Apprentice position.
Can someone please explain, to someone Old School, how the Apprentice thing works these days, because I'm lost.
I can understand people with commitments, trying the short course route, I don't personally like it but, it's the new wave I presume, I was indentured for 6 years, this must have changed, so will someone please explain to an on fart how it works these days, much appreciated in advance, just to ease my furrowed brow, and ease an Old timers worries. please.

I’m pretty sure here in Scotland an apprenticeship or an Adult apprenticeship is the only way of becoming an electrician. I have never know or heard of anyone doing the 4 week course, we read about all the times on this forum that happens down south. Same with this “ Domestic installer “ qualification. It’s been standard for years here that to sign domestic jobs off for the local council if you were not NICEIC OR SELECT registered to self certify, you had to show them your cscs gold card.

 

[jamie-spark]

Deleted duplicate post

 

[gazdkw82]

Real mix of ages and backgrounds on my apprentice course. Couple in late 40's, early 50's, good hand full in mid 30's.

Most of them were full time subs who were paying for the course themselves to get the quals they never achieved in the first place.

I can't comment on apprenticeships in the past but it seems they are still popular for many different people from many different backgrounds and experiences

 

[Jay 1987]

Pete, I can only speak for Scotland so here is my experience as I am putting a lad through it at the moment.

SECT run the training programmes and they are funded principally by the Scottish Government. SECT are part of SELECT.

My apprentice is 26 and a good lad. He is on below minimum wage for the 1st year regardless if he is at college or working with me. Pay rates are in line with SJIB. The course is 3 years but can extend to 4 if the apprentice struggles. It is run in blocks, roughly 4 or 5 weeks at a time and then he is back with me on the tools for 5 or 6 weeks. Alternating between the two. It's intensive and hard work at college. They are constantly assessed and I and the lecturers have access to an online software so I can see how he is doing and ask questions etc.

So far in year one he has done electrical theory, circuit designs and calls. Workshop wise tray, trunking and conduit. Metal and plastic. Last week it was plastic. Here's a pic of what he did in his bay.

Because the money is so bad I have helped him in other ways He's expected to also buy all his own hand tools! I've gotten most of them for him and I have to say CEF and YESS have also supplied some stuff FOC.

Any questions, just ask....

View attachment 47815

View attachment 47814

Tidy work

 

[simpson93]

Being only 25 i think its fairly recent for me.

Leaving school at 16, i simply couldnt find the apprentiship i was looking for and ended up enrolling on 2330 course for 2 years. The only people on the course who seemed to have apprentiship style training where those who had family in the trade.

For my first job as a trainee, I was told to register self-employed and paid £30 a day which I'm sure would be quite daunting for most people. Every job I have had since then has always been under a self-employed basis, i just think know one wants to actually employ anyone anymore.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Am I out of touch with modern trends? don't answer that if you can't be nice.
I see a lot of threads, enquiring about "how do I get an Apprenticeship" and "I'm an Adult Apprentice"
Have things changed? daft question really of course they have, with the onset of short courses etc, I'm not having a dig at short courses, honestly, I just cant understand, how Guys and Gals are searching pillar to post foe Apprenticeships.
There are those who will say "things have moved on Pete" but many of the larger Electrical Companies treat Apprenticeships as what they are, a commitment to someone who is willing to train, work for low wages for a period of time and eventually learn a trade, qualify properly, and become Electricians, you hear of people moving from one post to another for an Apprentice position.
Can someone please explain, to someone Old School, how the Apprentice thing works these days, because I'm lost.
I can understand people with commitments, trying the short course route, I don't personally like it but, it's the new wave I presume, I was indentured for 6 years, this must have changed, so will someone please explain to an on fart how it works these days, much appreciated in advance, just to ease my furrowed brow, and ease an Old timers worries. please.

I done a proper apprenticeship with SECTT and the SJIB and on the back of my craftsman certificate it lists the places you were employed throughout your apprenticeship (I only had the one)so I take it it went on with the proper ones too....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

From what I’ve been told, the Government has stopped or reduced the amount they pay employers to take on Aprentices.
As far as I am aware, there are still companies that take on Aprentices, T Clarkes, London Guild, Gratte Brothers, even smaller companies like SEE had Aprentices, before they went bust.

 

[richy3333]

Dont know if I said earlier Spin but I get no financial assistance at all in Scotland apart from that the course is funded by different parties. I have to pay my apprentice his wages, travel etc. Cant claim anything back.

 

[Marti]

As a mature enthusiast looking for a new career I could not even get any of "equal opportunity" employers to return my calls. Eventually put myself through college and part P etc; an impossible task without family support. Two youngsters sitting on my class had been used a cheap improvers for four years as part of their so called apprenticeship. Que the British companies crying "we can't get the quality staff in the UK" before under paying some poor European who just wants a better life for his family. I love this job but despair of the people that run the industry.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Dont know if I said earlier Spin but I get no financial assistance at all in Scotland apart from that the course is funded by different parties. I have to pay my apprentice his wages, travel etc. Cant claim anything back.

Do you not still get a little bonus once the apprentice passes his FICA?

 

[MFS Electrical]

Sorry if I caused offence @Moe my choice of words could have been better rather than proper maybe I should have said traditional.....

 

[Phil Thompson]

I have a level 2 trainee at the moment. He’s paid £40 a week for 2 years by college, then he goes on to level 3 where he becomes an employee and gets national minimum wage.

He’s been with me since Sept and whilst he’s a million times better than the 3 I had last year, he’s still not able to earn the £20 a day cash I throw him extra a day, and according to my accountant I’d be worried I will never get what needs to be billed out for him should he move on to level 3 now for the rest of his 4 years, if he gets his gcse resit maths. It’s actually not much difference between it and when he’d be 3rd year level, so in my eyes the first year rate is too high and should be more like £50-80 a week, the time you lose trying to teach them anything is unreal, they don’t have a clue about materials for months and months, so don’t speed you up that way.

Then these days because they’re all cotton wool wrapped snowflake babies, their mummies have them so mollie coddled they don’t even know what a brush and shovel is, never mind how to use them lol

 

[Carl S]

I became a EITB registered trainer just before I finished my apprenticeship. The up and coming apprentice’s grasp of maths was always my bugbear.


As for the brush and shovel, apprentices, trades men, charge hands and the forman all mucked in to clean the workshop. “You’re there to learn a trade, not make tea!”

 

[richy3333]

Do you not still get a little bonus once the apprentice passes his FICA?

Hi MFS.
Not that I am aware of, I’ve seen nothing on the SECT website nor have they said anything to me.

 

[Phil Thompson]

I became a EITB registered trainer just before I finished my apprenticeship. The up and coming apprentice’s grasp of maths was always my bugbear.


As for the brush and shovel, apprentices, trades men, charge hands and the forman all mucked in to clean the workshop. “You’re there to learn a trade, not make tea!”

That’s my attitude, and I don’t ask anyone to do anything I won’t do myself, unless it’s to fit into a space I’m never squeezing into lol

But I actually had to show my one how to brush up on Tuesday there, he did a half job, if that even.

 

[Deleted account]

I hate to generalise, but are kids IQ's and common sense not what they where 20-30 years ago.
They seem very easily distracted and when given a task do half a job.
As Phil says about his apprentice and brushing up. I've had exactly the same. If you've got to start teaching these little non skilled basic tasks how on earth are they going to cope with actual electrical work.

I have taken older trainees to give them experience and all is fine, but when going to 16-19year olds they are absolutely useless.

I could go on but this is turning into a rant.

I think kids think they are better than they are and deserve more in a quicker time due to unrealistic expectations put on to them in the education system.

Everyone's a winner, you can achieve anything you want.

Not everyone can come first place and out of the thousands of kids who want to be an astronaut, it's just not possible for all of them to achieve this.

Sorry it did turn into a rant.

 

[Blissof89]

You have to consider that as more and more kids are pushed towards further education and university the quality of the ones that end up going down the work based learning route is going to suffer.

Even when I left school back in 2005 we were heavily pushed towards further education. Apprenticeships were talked about but not in a great amount of detail and I was advised the I should apply for college or 6thform as a 'back up' incase I could not find an apprenticeship.

 

[Marti]

As for the brush and shovel, apprentices, trades men, charge hands and the forman all mucked in to clean the workshop. “You’re there to learn a trade, not make tea!”

The reason I had to go the very hard route of self employed. I don't mind making tea / load the van / clearing up BUT don't expect me to spend thousands in college fees, bring 30 years of home repair, a driver's licence and tools and learn nothing. I'm sure there are companies that would / could develop skills...but they would not employ someone of my age and never will.

the time you lose trying to teach them anything is unreal, they don’t have a clue about materials for months and months, so don’t speed you up that way.
lol

It's all because of Meccano and the bicycles Obviously, you get a Meccano kit at age five, fix your own bicycle at ten, your motor bike at sixteen, your flat at twenty...you get my point. Youngsters are, unfortunately taught that only gods can fix a smart phone and are therefor clueless about fixing....anything

Incidentally, John Haynes passed away recently. He of Haynes Manuals and the start of my education.

 

[pirate]

F**k, did John die?
Truly the end of an era...
I am sad now...

 

[pirate]

BTW, Marti...
all you said is so true...
we learned!
We did stuff...we worked it out, and we were real!
I loved fixing my bike, my first car, my first boat...all with some basic tools, a socket set and some cheap drivers...
I once got a torque wrench for christmas (still got it!) and my pals thought I was a posh tart!

However, we must be careful...lest this develop into a rant...shhh!

 

[Marti]

We did stuff...we worked it out, and we were real!.....

I once got a torque wrench for christmas (still got it!) and my pals thought I was a posh tart!

However, we must be careful...lest this develop into a rant...shhh!

NO...Never! No ol' man ranting allowed.
(Mumbles) Post tool tart with with torque wrench. I used me teeth

Seriously, the skills and confidence come with time, with repetition and with skinned knuckles. You have to feel for the tradesman trying to pack our teenage years of learnin' into a "toolbox talk" on using a screwdriver without destroying the screw head. Young people are brilliant in so many way; just not all of the ways that make a brilliant tradesman.

 

[AJshep]

Ive worked with lots of youngsters over the last 15 years, I reckon 10% were good, some had attitude, some were just really akward, but unfortunately most were to easily distracted or busy on their phones.
I remember setting this lad up one day to drill joists. I explained how to measure and where to drill, then after using a chaulk line I set him up using an angle drill which had a spiral (arger) wood bit. Simple right? No !
He came back 30mins later with one trouser leg ripped clean off, silly fool had a phone call and instead of finishing up with the drill he rushed to answer his phone while still holding the drill anyway he knocked the trigger started the drill up while it was hanging next to his leg, his trousers got caught in the drill bit and tore them off. Could have been serious, could have lost a leg or ripped his muscle or tendons out.

Maybe its just the people my old boss used to employe, but it puts me off getting one myself and I could do with a hand.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Hi MFS.
Not that I am aware of, I’ve seen nothing on the SECT website nor have they said anything to me.

When I done mine I got £1000 from sectt for passing and I think the company may have got something too possibly £10000.....
http://www.sectt.org.uk/documents/employerinformation-apprenticev2.pdf
Look at the last line

 

[Pete999]

Ive worked with lots of youngsters over the last 15 years, I reckon 10% were good, some had attitude, some were just really akward, but unfortunately most were to easily distracted or busy on their phones.
I remember setting this lad up one day to drill joists. I explained how to measure and where to drill, then after using a chaulk line I set him up using an angle drill which had a spiral (arger) wood bit. Simple right? No !
He came back 30mins later with one trouser leg ripped clean off, silly fool had a phone call and instead of finishing up with the drill he rushed to answer his phone while still holding the drill anyway he knocked the trigger started the drill up while it was hanging next to his leg, his trousers got caught in the drill bit and tore them off. Could have been serious, could have lost a leg or ripped his muscle or tendons out.

Maybe its just the people my old boss used to employe, but it puts me off getting one myself and I could do with a hand.

Probably get an optimistic icon, but insist if you offer them employment (youngsters that is) that you take their Cell phone away whilst they are being paid by you, sure give it back at lunch time, but whilst working is a big no no in my book, tin hat is on firmly fixed.

 

[MG201]

i know a few guys who where apprentices for a 1 man band doning only domestic stuff a house rewire being the biggest, both adults (22+27) they went to college and worked like dogs for the guy he took tax off them for 4 years only for them to try get a tax return after discovering there is such a thing ..ooops never has a penny been paid in thier names , anyway they currently still havnt passed as the guy has never done any testing the boss used to walk in with a multi meter and then supply a cert to the customer yes they did think a multi meter could be used , makes u wonder what the real standards is out there

 

[AJshep]

If they were working for the chap self-employed under the CIS UTR scheme then their invoices to the boss should show total amount and include the 20% tax.

If the boss didnt pay it then they should report it to Inland Revenue

 

[Marti]

take their Cell phone away whilst they are being paid by you, sure give it back at lunch time, but whilst working is a big no no in my book, tin hat is on firmly fixed.

Phones are the root cause of all sorts of social issues at this time. They are also a valuable tool; who of us would not have like to have one the first time we were on a site unsupervised, or take a quick look at the drawings we copied and are now lost on-site somewhere. Even so, the youngsters need to get a grip on why they are there and, if they can't get that, maybe they need to move on.

I remember being struck by the seven year old son of an old boss who had been taught to introduce himself and shake hands before he was seven. That kid will go far because of the basics instilled in him which probably include when to pocket his phone.