Are you happy with the cost of MCS registration

[unguided1]

Hi Guys


I am a self employed heating engineer and I am extremly unhappy with the cost of becoming MCS accredited, but what I am truly angry about is this ridiculous QMS beurocracy that is not a help to my business but as I see it a hinderence. If you are interested in what I and many heating engineers have to say then learn more here Changing the MCS

If you would like to add your voice to the campaign then voice it on this blog
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up


This campaign is just the start to fight the constant beurocracy within the whole building industry, I know that electricians have suffered greatly with the constant inane changes that have been going on in your industry and now If you want to take up renewables you have even greater costs regulations and trainning to contend with, Not so bad if you run a big company but if your self employed the costs can be prohibitve.

Whether your for or against this campaign please let me know or better still add your voice to the above blog, The person running this blog is the guy who succsesfully campaigned for boiler scrappage scheme, so has a track record for getting things done.

Regards
Mike

 

[Markc]

I will give it a look and sign up. Thanks

 

[unguided1]

Thanks Markc
I appreciate the effort whether for or against all input is gratefully recieved.
regards
Mike

 

[Worcester]

@unguided1, appreciate what your doing, and having read the various posts on the plumbers forum, I see where you guys are coming from.

Would anyone have got away with this on Solar PV: Kingspan HP200 30 tube install (Maybe they would?)

 

[unguided1]

Hi worcester

Thank you for taking the time to visit us If you feel our greivance is tenible please post your support on MickW s blog.

Regards
Mike

 

[unguided1]

So cmon guys are if you are a one man band or a small business are you truly happy with the way your industry is going and are you happy with the MCS just looking for feed back either way

 

[Worcester]

Actually our (personal) feelings are that MCS should be tightened up and should cover also the installation side with some measure of minimum standards, it has the opportunity to be a proper certification, but it does appear to be lost in bureaucracy.

Not sure what paperwork we'd cut out, most of it is embedded in our way of working now.

 

[unguided1]

I am total agreement that their should be more focus on the engineering side, obviousley I am completley unaware of what you guys do with PV but when you look at solar thermal there are similarities with the roof work side of things.


Also for us plumbers is the fact that our trade has been splintered over the last twenty years, to the point where now you are literaly forced to specialise, for example Gas Safe for Gas, Heatas for solid fuel, Oftec for oil and now MCS for renewables, But there is no focus at all on the systems that these different technologies are implemented onto the system, also as a one man band the physical cost of being a member of these professional bodies is cost prohibitive.

I realise that you guys have had to go through all these different editions to the point that you are now I believe on 17th, I notice that they are mucking around with the colours of your cables which I find excedingly confusing, but how many bodies do you guys have to be a member of or are is it just plumbers whos industry is being pulled apart to force us to specialise

 

[dgreenberr]

hi just read the blog,

i can honestly say that the costs for me to get to the mcs stage are frightening , also all the jobs that appear round my area seem to be carried out by a well no gas company if they are a electricity provider and then fit panels to your roof are they on to a winner if this scheme was backed by the goverment

 

[unguided1]

Hi dggreenberr

thank you for taking the time to read the blog it is appreciated did you add your comments to the blog as this is what we are looking for, more comments, I do know that some major manufacturers are now on side but we still need to show solidarity to get things changed, I have seen many threads on here complaing about all the new regs and trainning you are having to do this is fine if you are on for a big firm but if you are a one man band it is a struggle so make you voice heard and make a difference

 

[Cider]

Mike,

Are you mcs registered?

 

[unguided1]

Mike,

Are you mcs registered?

Hi Cider No I am not and I have made it a point to refuse to be MCS accredited until something is actually done to help one man bands and small businesses, I do however currently do MCS sign offs and inspections and also Inspect MCS accredited installers work. DECC have acknowledged today that small business needs to be looked at http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ogeneration/2015-microgeneration-strategy.pdf

In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.

Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.

4.14 At present, small installer companies may be not be clarifying the case for microgeneration to potential consumers. The trade associations and other industry bodies have an ideal opportunity to work with their respective members to promote microgeneration. SMEs will want clear concise information about what the opportunities of microgeneration mean for them and how they can get involved



​

 

[solarsavings]

Hi Cider No I am not and I have made it a point to refuse to be MCS accredited until something is actually done to help one man bands and small businesses

Something I did until the penny finally dropped that without accepting the inevitable I would have to leave the industry.

I do however currently do MCS sign offs and inspections and also Inspect MCS accredited installers work.

Now that bugs the hell out of me and you've lost the moral high ground in my eyes.

 

[unguided1]

Hi Solarsavings I apologise to yourself if what I am doing offends you personally, But I have no intention of stopping what I am doing my reason for saying this is I am making a stand against the phyisical cost of MCS and this ridiculous QMS for one man bands and small businesses, I did start the process of being MCS accredited but after my first assesment I realised that MCS had nothing to do with the state of an installation and was only about the paperwork, I lost all confidence in it especially when I found that the person who was assesing me did not have a clue about heatpumps or heating, to the point where he did not even know that Glycol was used in the system or that it had to be a food grade non toxic glycol. Please believe me my qualifications and experiance more than cover the work that I do, and I have on a number of occasions had to put work right that has been done by so called MCS accredited companies. If you look in the plumbers forum, in the renewables section and look at a thread called heat pump horror stories heatpump horror stories This will hopefully let you understand where I am coming from. Also I would say that as you have found what I am doing objectionable please vent your frustrations about me on this Blog Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
My reason for this is I want the muppets who have started this debarcle to know that there are some serious flaws in the MCS, I can assure you I am not a cowboy, I am a professional and if I have found a way you can guarantee the cowboys will

 

[solarsavings]

OK, I'm off to work right now so will have to leave this until this evening except to say. Gassafe register all over again!!!!!!! and argi time all over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I'm sure you know that to be a trainer you only need have passed the same course that you are planning to teach(2 days?) no real world experience needed. Oh and an A1 assessors certificate. Hardly surprising then that course providers know so little.

I had one of the old greenskies assessors do a couple of solar thermal installs for me, never again.

 

[Cider]

Mike.

I am a one man band-small business.
I have been in the trade 27 years.
MCS the way I see it is about accountability.
That is how things are these days.
I have my mcs inspection monday.
After my business has been inspected any non-conformitys will be noted and its up to me to correct them.
Thats how it is. It will be my fault, my problem, as everything required is there in black and white for anyone to find and read.
It is an extremely big thing for a small business to embark on, but the choice was mine to make, like was yours.
If I jack it in like, like you did it wont be the fault of MCS but mine.
I will be accountable.
I understand you are extremely competant at your job, but that is not a good enough reason to get MCS.
Those companies who are MCS but doing crap jobs will not last, as within their quality system they are stateing how they will operate.
If customers accept poor work and pay someone else to sort it that is their mistake.
If they take legal action they will win every time, hands down.
Thats what mcs is about, having a QMS system to be accountable.

cider

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Im a 1 man band, and Im quite happy in principle with the set up costs, however its the associated registrations that get me.....Gemserve, REAL, and the way MCS is not combined with Part P. The speed at which the whole process crawls along is frustrating too.

Paperwork, no problems with that either, because it has tightened up my business procedures and the manner in which I operate overall. I have applied the QMS to my whole business and not just the solar side. Customers are quite impressed that their money for deposits now bounces through a client account, I have a better relationship with suppliers, and my whole business presence has been lifted since passing the MCS assessment, with ease I may add. The only point I would like changing is the need to acknowledge the way a small company operates in relation to MCS i.e. Im not likely to have a meeting with myself or complete impartial audits by myself.

Im not worried so much about cowboy installers, just the big nationals who bend the rules and get away with it.

 

[Apollo]

Hi Everyone,

Whilst I am not yet MCS registered and am about 12 months off from being. I hear a lot of people saying of the massive costs to start MCS registration, some even quoting 20k+. Can someone please enlighten us to the costs involved because I have looked into this and there must be hidden cost after certain stages as I get no where near such inflated costs.

I understand paperwork is lengthy, however this is not a cost as such as you do this. IHMO!!!

Please someone put some ball park figures down for MCS registration only!!!!

Many Thanks,

 

[Cider]

Look into it, allow for everything you can think of.

Then times it by 4.

PS I think in 12 months the boat may have well and trully sailed and docked at the other side

 

[Apollo]

Renewables is here to stay! The boat will not be leaving any time soon!

I understand and have thought of everything I can but why times it by 4?????

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Cash flow is the main crippling factor for small business. You need to have a tidy reserve in the bank to buy the kit.

Training
Insurance
Tools and test kit
Competant persons scheme
Time taken to prepare and get your QMS together
MCS Registration
Gemserve registration
REAL Registration
Marketing
Cost of your 1st job - usually your own property

SO yes the costs quickly mount up and can quickly run away from you, and that list is probably not complete......

 

[unguided1]

Mike.

I am a one man band-small business.
I have been in the trade 27 years.
MCS the way I see it is about accountability.
That is how things are these days.
I have my mcs inspection monday.
After my business has been inspected any non-conformitys will be noted and its up to me to correct them.
Thats how it is. It will be my fault, my problem, as everything required is there in black and white for anyone to find and read.
It is an extremely big thing for a small business to embark on, but the choice was mine to make, like was yours.
If I jack it in like, like you did it wont be the fault of MCS but mine.
I will be accountable.
I understand you are extremely competant at your job, but that is not a good enough reason to get MCS.
Those companies who are MCS but doing crap jobs will not last, as within their quality system they are stateing how they will operate.
If customers accept poor work and pay someone else to sort it that is their mistake.
If they take legal action they will win every time, hands down.
Thats what mcs is about, having a QMS system to be accountable.

cider

Hi Cider

I am glad that for you that you have found that the MCS works for yourself and your business, I have no idea how much a Sparky has to pay per year to be a member of a regulatory body or how many regulatory bodies they may have to join, but in the plumbing and heating industry for me as a one man band if I want to install all the things that I am trained to install then I have to be a member fo Gas Safe for gas, Oftec for Oil, Heatas for solid fuel and MCS for renewables, the physical cost alone makes being a member of each organisation prohibitive, then there is the fact that I am a heating engineer, and I chose my chosen profession because I enjoy being out working not sat in an office filling out forms and doing paperwork, so please excuse me if I carry on protesting, and If anyone is fed up with the amount of rediculous beurocracy that has been creeping into our industries then please comment on the blog that was mentioned in the original post

 

[Cider]

If I wanted to be a pilot I would have to learn to fly getting countless hours of training, pass rigorous tests and exams involving lots of paper work then get more hours of training etc etc.
Each time I take to the air I take system checks and complete more paper work.
Each time I land the same.
I maybe then be able to fly a small plane.
If I want to fly a jumbo full of passangers I would have to take further test, exams, paperwork etc.
If it was beyond my ability or had not the finances to do it what would i do?
Try and change the rules to suit me?
Or accept I should stick to the smaller aircraft.

 

[unguided1]

So the fact that I am already qualified to do what I am doing which I have been doing for 30 years with no problem, I should now go and join the unemployed because I do not want to be part of the beurocratic system that the government is forcing me to do and is completely irrelevent to what I do, Also I am being forced to keep this paperwork for over 6 years who is funding the storage me, thank you for your suggestion cider but I respect your views but I for one will still campaign against the cost and the beuarocrocy and I am still not a pilot either

 

[Cider]

If you know the mcs and real codes, what parts should be scrapped?
Keeping records, so when mrs smiths panels are not working after 5 years and her records are lost, no one has a clue whats installed or what the commissioning readinds were?
The health and safety risk assessments, so people start cutting corners?
The method statement so if a contractor doeas a shoddy job he can not be held accountable.
The hand over pack so there is information missing for the customer from the beginning.
Failing to check up to see if all documents are current so calcs are done on wrong information?

Please be more specific as to what you would scrap.

If you had passed your mcs inspection would you still be on your soap box?

Put your energy into learning on what you failed and get reassessed.

Sorry!

 

[Worcester]

@Cider, I popped over to the UKPlumbersforums.co.uk and it seems that unguided1 is not alone in his community with his position.

All the plumbers seem to have a major gripe on at the moment about regulation generally and MCS in particular, hence the reason for him starting this thread here.

 

[unguided1]

If you know the mcs and real codes, what parts should be scrapped?
Keeping records, so when mrs smiths panels are not working after 5 years and her records are lost, no one has a clue whats installed or what the commissioning readinds were?
The health and safety risk assessments, so people start cutting corners?
The method statement so if a contractor doeas a shoddy job he can not be held accountable.
The hand over pack so there is information missing for the customer from the beginning.
Failing to check up to see if all documents are current so calcs are done on wrong information?

Please be more specific as to what you would scrap.

If you had passed your mcs inspection would you still be on your soap box?

Put your energy into learning on what you failed and get reassessed.

Sorry!

Hi Cider

I am not saying scrap the whole thing but it should at least be made easier and cheaper for small businesses or possibly some form of exemption, the other thing is the fact that there are many different schemes and organisations that we are forced to be members of and now there is another one

 

[sjhall]

Hi Unguided,

I'm with you on the costs, its a joke for your average 1 man band , but this is what the big boys want, and if you are a small business / 1 man band that has managed to get your MCS,(well done) why would you want the doors opening to make entry easier and competition more fierce? that's what part P has done to the Electrical industry and its destroying it.
I think the guys who have gone through the process are happy to roll with it now they are in the club, and the guys on the sidelines ( like me ) would like to see the entry procedure simplified.

I'm sure there is a middle ground, were and what it is, I'm not too sure as such , but they could start with combining some of the costs into one full package rather than having to pay so many governing bodies.

Cheer

Ste

 

[unguided1]

Hi ste

thank you for your comments sometimes I have a struggle getting across what I am actually trying to say, Also not being an electrician I do not know or understand how many reugualtory bodies you have to be a member of or how much it costs you guys a year, but I do know and understand that the cowboys are able to undercut us all because they know that if they get caught they will if at worst get a small slap on the wrist and a light fine and its usually only by chance that cowboys are caught and prosecuted as these bodies that we pay for do not police the industry properly

 

[Worcester]

Actually we would have spent whatever was nescessary, and it's not about closing the doors once we're in.

Some of the questions raised both on this forum and the UKPlumbersForums are incredibly scary considering what people are doing.

We set ourselves up as professional organisation providing renewables solutions, and it was my own personal money that has now funded getting 3 companies through MCS.

There are multiple skills involved in these projects, structural engineering, thermodynamics, hydraulics, meteorlogy, as well as plumbing and electrical skills.

We don't just employ our own people, we also act as an umbrella for others that want work in this area, and don;t want to go through the MCS process, - we handle all that. They still run their own businesses with their own customers, and take the lead on their own jobs - so long as they have done the appropriate training in heat pump / solar PV / solar thermal etc. All of our staff are qualified appropriately, and it gives them the ability to have access to the extra skills that they need.

We are NOT a sales led company, we are a professional company providing solutions, using local resources, and are not competing with them - we are working with and facilitating them.

Perhaps, like we did you could form a local consortium with a single umbrella organisation, it is perfectly allowed for under the MCS scheme, we are not distorting it and we don;t work around it, we work with it, to everyone's benefit.

We have one project that is just kicking off for example that uses, groundsource, solar thermal AND solar PV, from what was just a groundsource enquiry - everyone benefits.

There are times when being your own boss and trying to be all things to all people is the wrong approach, and with the complexities of some of the technology in this area, it may be time to look at how you work.

 

[unguided1]

Hi Worcester

I have experiance of this type of umbrella organisation and it is OK if the people running it are keeping a close eye on the companies that are doing the work, but unfortunately I still have a problem with this as I do actually inspect MCS accredited installers work and I am finding that I am having to tell them there jobs and the most worrying and common thing is the absolute basic need for the appropriate external insulation on their pipework, I am also aware of a particular company where the boss has the MCS and he has sold company franchises to people, who to be honest are not really capable of putting a hose pip together