Are you sure its 43.3p? DECC say otherwise

[solarelectrix]

Guys,
it might be somewhere else on the forum and I do apologise for not looking.

Does anyone know the answer - is it 43p now or 21p for >4kW ? Just got off the phone with DECC and they insisted its 21p? Everyone is telling me its back up to 43p or is still to be clarified? Does any one know for sure?

My head hurts!

 

[Noshocks]

Knowone should be telling you its £0.43, its £0.21 unless the government lose their appeal at the supreme court, you must take a judgement on the outcome of this yourself.

 

[SolarCity]

Hilariously, we'll only know the result of the supreme court ruling AFTER the deadline for 43.3p.

So no one will be selling at 43.3p without breaking REAL rules.

 

[ruston]

Hilariously, we'll only know the result of the supreme court ruling AFTER the deadline for 43.3p.

So no one will be selling at 43.3p without breaking REAL rules.

LOL . A scammer could not of dreamed this one up; what an absolute con. Seems only governments can get away with con tricks.

 

[jupestar]

No wonder there is confusion when I'm getting e-mails for certain British PV Associations which are clearly telling me incorrect information (i'e. the old FIT rates).... Now if i was unscrupulous i could just wave that under the noses of clients and tell them to get in quick.....

I stuck my head in the sand till now, as i just don't want to know. When i go to speak to someone interested in solar ... i tell them how i would fit it, how much they could fit, how much it would cost, and how much energy they could expect from it on a monthly basis. When they ask about the FIT i tell them, I don't know what's going on, mainly because i just can't hear it anymore.... and i'm not going to tell them a number because if I'm wrong they will blame me.

Tell you what it was a nice refreshing approach and leading to a lot of good jobs, no doubt the new uncertainty will stuff all that up again.....

 

[SolarCity]

Judging by the phone calls I have made to suppliers this afternoon, a LOT of firms are selling at 43.3p.

So where does this leave us? The unscrupulous firms are selling at 43.3p and the rest of us are left scratching around.

 

[jupestar]

I've already lost one cause of the change... apparently someone guaranteed to do it before the new deadline, if they signed up....

To be fair i have been dragging my feet a bit, as i was not entirely comfortable.... almost impossible to stop leaks, without some serious work (i.e. a new roof) but they were a very nice couple so didn't want to let them down.... I was going to have to pull the roof apart just to see if an installation was possible... I'll be interested to go and see what the other lot do with it...

 

[JulianC]

Judging by the phone calls I have made to suppliers this afternoon, a LOT of firms are selling at 43.3p.

So where does this leave us? The unscrupulous firms are selling at 43.3p and the rest of us are left scratching around.

Tell me about it. Got a text late last night from a potential surveyee to say not to bother as he was going with one of the quotes he'd already got as they'd phoned to tell him he'd have to sign up there and then in order to get 43.3 and be fitted in before the 3rd March. I shall be contacting him to tell him to take full advantage of his cooling off period and to think it through properly.

 

[vernam616]

43p for 25years for people who installed before 12th December 2011, if you got the install after 12th December you will get the 43p up until April 2012 when it drops to 21p

 

[Earthstore]

I have been trawling the net today for another project I am working on (energy of course) and there are pop-ups everywhere, stating it is 43.3p if you install before March 3rd.
Maybe they do not read the same info as the rest of us.

Just to clarify to any member of the public reading this your FIT rate for a <4KWP installation completed between 12th Dec and the 3rd March will be 21p, with the possibility that it may be 43.3p if the Government fail in an appeal at the Supreme court.
Installs after the 3rd March will be 21p.
Just to add, all <4KWP Installs after 12th Dec will be 43.3p until 1st April then will drop to 21p for the rest of the 25yrs.
Installs completed before the 12th Dec will stay on the 43.3p tariff.
I hope this helps.

 

[SRE]

I wish I could lose my moral stand. It seems to me that if you're decent with your customers and don't lie to them about the Fit outcome and spend time doing a decent job everyone thinks you're a nice guy and recommends you to a few people but on cold calls you lose out every time to unethical traders.

I waited until last week for clarification for the 21p rate - loads of local installers carried on installing on a wing and a prayer, many without the planning permission required - and won.

I'm advising caution about 43p and telling customers it's like a small lottery win if it comes through but to base decisions on 21p, I'm losing out to con artists selling at 43p. Last advert I had was selling on the basis that if the 43p didn't come through the customer would get a 10% discount on their sale. How can that meet the Real code - it has to be an inflated price in the first place! Who is getting the sales though??? My phone isn't ringing ... my customers are now saying unless the 43p is guaranteed they don't want it - even @ a 10 year payback!

Just as things were starting to settle down at lower rates we're all in turmoil again!

9th Feb - just under a fornight away - it's all going to kick off again about the C rating.

How am I supposed to make a living until then :90:

 

[jupestar]

I've been doing my Ostrich impression over the c-rating stuff... Is it still a goer?
It can only be designed to kill the industry dead or just let the big companies mop it up.
I don't know the first thing about assessing alphabetical rating of house, and i don't want to.

I can't imagine how anyone can think negotiating a discount depending on the FIT's means you are dealing with a proper installer, surely the price is the price.. i've not encountered that peculiar request yet.

On that pricing is a bl00dy nightmare at the moment. I've not looked in the last few days but i'll bet wholesale prices are suspiciously creeping back up again!!

 

[cbw]

Segens still did my last kit at previous price.....That siad they are running out of stock, had to buy silver frames

 

[dansk]

my supplier sold 5000 JA and 1500 LG panels after the announcment, some knows something i dont, or jumped the gun.

edit: also to conirm Am I selling at 43p or 21p? - Solar Power Portal

 

[cbw]

I hope these companies that are buying all the stock get their fingers burned......

 

[dansk]

Me too, i suspect they will.

 

[flamefix]

DECC warns firms not to promote higher tariffs
We have received a large number of enquiries from both STA members and members of the public asking what the situation is with the court case and what tariff rates will apply to current and future installations. So below you will find a brief summary of the situation.

The Court of Appeal has not granted DECC permission for a further appeal, but DECC is seeking permission directly from the Supreme Court and has 28 days in which to do so. Were they granted leave to appeal and the appeal was successful (and it could take up to one year before the final outcome is known) they could still legislate to apply new tariffs from the 12 December 2011 reference date. Hence DECC is warning firms not to promote the higher tariffs in the period from 12[SUP]th[/SUP] March 2011 to 3rd March 2012 as these cannot be guaranteed.


Salient point is this I suspect..

"but DECC is seeking permission directly from the Supreme Court and has 28 days in which to do so." -they'll take their time appealing then? Because only scummers will sell on the basis the government loses and if they take the 28 days to appeal and lose it leaves no time to install for those that sell honestly.

 

[dansk]

Salient point is this I suspect..

"but DECC is seeking permission directly from the Supreme Court and has 28 days in which to do so." -they'll take their time appealing then? Because only scummers will sell on the basis the government loses and if they take the 28 days to appeal and lose it leaves no time to install for those that sell honestly.

Correctomundo

 

[pwboston]

if you look in the daily mail, a company has a very large advert stating the 43p tariff is back on, no mention at all of the 21p tariff.

 

[powervan]

i went to job TODAY first job since MAD DAYS chap wants to take a punt on getting 43.3p simple job and first time ive done it at 21p aswell as good old 43.3p go to be ONEST i dont think i would sell many at 21p! its gonna get nasty if the 43.3p dont stand as yes there out there FLOGGING at 43.3p morals or money i no how i sleep at nite! suppliers and companies are going for it and prob shut up shop soon after!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kenny james]

43p for 25years for people who installed before 12th December 2011, if you got the install after 12th December you will get the 43p up until April 2012 when it drops to 21p

thats about right vernam616 thats the last thing i had heard!!!

 

[mdovey]

Actually, thinking it through I'm coming to the conclusion that legally the current FIT is 43p, and DECC is on legally dubious ground to tell anyone not to sell at that rate, or to insist that any installation after 12 Dec will receive 21p after April until the appeal at the Supreme Court succeeds or fails.

Whilst DECC have announced an intention to change the FIT, Parliament needs to pass an ammendment to the "Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licenses" before any change is legally enacted. Until then the FIT is legally 43p. At present, parliament has not passed any such change.

DECC are planning to put a proposal to parliament changing the FIT for installations after the 3/3 however this has not yet been passed by parliament. Even when this is passed by parliament, legally the FIT for installations before the 3/3 will remain 43p.

DECC are blocked from introducing any change to the license which would introduce any change to the FIT for installations before the 3/3 by the High Court and the Court of Appeal. As such the FIT for those installations will legally remain 43p and legally, they should expect to receive 43p even after 1 April.

If DECC wins the appeal at the Supreme Court then they have stated that they will introduce legislation to retrospectively change the FIT for installations after the 12/12 and the 3/3 and presumably recover any overpayments retrospectively so incurred (there is still a possibility that parliament would reject the change). But DECC's intent to appeal doesn't change the fact that until such retrospective legislation is actually passed, the legal situation as determined by the Electricity Supply Licenses will remain that the FIT for installs before the 3/3 is 43p.

So anyone selling at the 43p rate now is selling at the rate defined in the current legislation as per the "Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licenses". It is a little difficult to accuse someone of miss- selling for selling at a rate which is in black and white in the current statute books! If DECC did win the appeal, any claims of miss-selling would be entirely due to the retrospective nature of the amendment that DECC has stated that it would then introduce to the electricity supply license. That would make any case of miss-selling legally very messy to resolve - which is precisely why retrospective legislation is generally seen as a very bad idea, and why four judges so far have refused to allow it.

P.S. the above analysis is from a logician, not a lawyer!

 

[SolarCity]

my supplier sold 5000 JA and 1500 LG panels after the announcment, some knows something i dont, or jumped the gun.

edit: also to conirm Am I selling at 43p or 21p? - Solar Power Portal

They're jumping the gun. I just hope the customers are aware of what they're getting in to.

I'll be honest - I HAVE to work. But I won't sell at 43.3p. It's not my risk to take.

The fact that unscrupulous (or understandably misinformed) companies are advertising 43.3p and taking loads of work depresses me greatly.

 

[SolarCity]

Mdovey, what you say makes sense and I'm sure we've all considered it and I've no doubt a lot of installers are following through on that idea.

 

[mdovey]

Mdovey, what you say makes sense and I'm sure we've all considered it and I've no doubt a lot of installers are following through on that idea.

I should qualify that I'm not condoning selling at 43p (certainly not without a big disclaimer to make sure that the customer is aware of the risk this may drop), just highlighting what a mess DECC has made (not that it needs highlighting). Although for DECC to advise anyone not to sell at 43p is flying close to contempt of court.

I suppose a way of viewing it might be

Installations before 12/12: FIT of 43p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years
Installations between 12/12 and 3/3: FIT of 43p, but not guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years, but may drop to 21p (adjusted for inflatation)
Installations after 3/3: FIT of 21p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years

 

[SolarCity]

As far as I can see, whenever the supreme court ruling is head, we should have 6 weeks of 43.3p anyway.

If not, do solar firms not have a case to claim against the government for loss of earnings?

 

[mdovey]

If not, do solar firms not have a case to claim against the government for loss of earnings?

If the supreme court appeals fails, then an argument could be made that DECC's continued threat of (by then clearly illegal) retrospective legislation artificially depressed the market between 12/12 and 3/3 - it could be an interesting class action to watch!

 

[SRE]

I should qualify that I'm not condoning selling at 43p (certainly not without a big disclaimer to make sure that the customer is aware of the risk this may drop), just highlighting what a mess DECC has made (not that it needs highlighting). Although for DECC to advise anyone not to sell at 43p is flying close to contempt of court.

I suppose a way of viewing it might be

Installations before 12/12: FIT of 43p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years
Installations between 12/12 and 3/3: FIT of 43p, but not guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years, but may drop to 21p (adjusted for inflatation)
Installations after 3/3: FIT of 21p guaranteed to remain 43p (adjusted for inflation) for 25 years

I like and accept your logic but couldn't in all conscience sell at 43p even with a disclaimer.

I suspect the legal argument if you did this would be around the fact that the government clearly indicated that there would be an appeal and regardless of whether this would be successful there is a chance that the Fit could be reduced to 21p.

I guess some of the nationals with legal clout have got their disclaimers sorted out but for the little guys I think it leaves us morally bankrupt and potentially legally liable in the unlikely situation that the government wins the appeal.

To be honest - I think the government have outsmarted the industry. None of my customers are buying at 43p in fact since Wednesday it's actually been more difficult to sell because of the confusion. How on earth do you explain that it's 43p now, could be 21p later but you won't know until you've committed yourself and had the installation done which rate it will be. I sound like a cowboy installer :cuss:

 

[TedM]

Whilst DECC have announced an intention to change the FIT, Parliament needs to pass an ammendment to the "Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licenses" before any change is legally enacted. Until then the FIT is legally 43p. At present, parliament has not passed any such change.

DECC are planning to put a proposal to parliament changing the FIT for installations after the 3/3 however this has not yet been passed by parliament. Even when this is passed by parliament, legally the FIT for installations before the 3/3 will remain 43p.

Actually what happens is that once the draft of changes to the Lincese are submitted to Parliament by DECC both the House of Commons and the House of Lords have 40 days in which to reject the proposal. If they don't do this then Huhne can go ahead. There is no requirement for them to expressly vote to approve the changes.

 

[moggy1968]

How do people think they will get 10% of the installation price back from a company that won't even be in existance when the appeal is finally held? They will have shut their doors and moved to thei villa well before then.

 

[deeyup]

I had an email this morning from a solar pv agent guaranteeing 43p for the next 25 years.
http://www.solarpvpanelsonline.co.uk/

 

[dansk]

How? Out of there own pocket?

 

[bigring]

I had an email this morning from a solar pv agent guaranteeing 43p for the next 25 years.http://www.solarpvpanelsonline.co.uk/

There's an advert on the login in page, stating "get the 43p tariff before the tariff change " ????????.

 

[trevor79]

As I see it I can find no legal basis of the FIT rate not being 43.3p up to the 3rd March.
In fact four high court judges have upheld this.

Also it is speculation that DECC will ASK the Supreme Court of leave to appeal, just because they say they will doesn't mean they will do it!

 

[sambotc]

That's true, I wouldn't be surprised if it is dropped after the 3rd march, maybe just a stalling tactic that hasn't worked? I suppose they can way up the costs once all the installs are in and registered, and decide whether or not it is worth taking it to the supreme court?

 

[moggy1968]

I don't think it matters what the logic of it is. Huhne and Barking are using tax payers money to shore up their own saggy egos. They just can't accept they're wrong.

 

[finchy]

The way I see it is it's 21p but customers who have installations before 3/3 have a Chance of 43p, that's what I will say but obviously say the contract is 21p, and they should only sign based on the 21p. !

 

[dansk]

The way I see it is it's 21p but customers who have installations before 3/3 have a Chance of 43p, that's what I will say but obviously say the contract is 21p, and they should only sign based on the 21p. !

And thats what ive sold a few systems on this week.

 

[Gavin A]

And thats what ive sold a few systems on this week.

us too.

We're getting close to being booked solid for Feb having done none at all in January until tomorrow.

 

[dansk]

You know were i am for the over spill ;-)

 

[TMGL]

Although I agree that it is partly a stalling tactic to minimise installs pre March 3rd, I also think that DECC are desperate to ultimately try and win the case as otherwise they will be crucified by class actions...from installers and consumers alike. Just hope the settlements don't come out of the FiT budget!

 

[grandfortune]

i saw in the paper the Dragons den lot,forgot the company are advertising 43p, is it ploughcroft.?, paper was the mail (dad's not mine lol)

 

[dansk]

Yep and online, in fact i noticied two or three Google Adwords displaying 43p, no wonder the customers are confused.

 

[Gavin A]

odd that they're still using 21p in their example calcs on their website then.

 

[GaryM]

i saw in the paper the Dragons den lot,forgot the company are advertising 43p, is it ploughcroft.?, paper was the mail (dad's not mine lol)

Yeah, Ploughcroft. One of their salesmen told me about the advert in the Daily Mail.
I know nothing is concrete but realistically can you see the tariff ending up at anything other than 43.3p currently when the dust finally settles?

 

[moggy1968]

70/30 in favour of 43.3p IMHO

 

[SolarCity]

Lots of adverts are promoting 43.3p.

We've had a lot more interest over the last few days but we've been telling everyone that it is 21p - and 43.3p if we're lucky.

It's a gamble and customers have to assume that 21p is the rate and consider if they think this is value for money.

 

[trevor79]

The law is the law, and the rate is 43.3p until it can be legally changed.
That date being the 3rd March 2012, unless the Government can

a) Be granted leave to appeal by the Supreme court, for which they will have to deliver legal foundations for consideration on the rullings made from the Appeal court.

b) On hearing have landmark judgement made in their favour that they are granted the legal powers to legislate retrospectively.


The odds on that are?????

 

[dansk]

Do we have this in writing anywere? from DECC? or REA? Because this thread is going backwards and forwards from one post to another so much i dont know what to believe.

 

[trevor79]

Yes, read the Appeal court judges published findings, it's there in black and white.
DECC can only issue guidence which is only founded if judgement is eventually overturned in there favour. To enforce that guidence retrospectively would be an illegal act as things stand.

Mind you Huhme is already in hot water on his driving licence/points!

The Supreme Court is the final court of appeal in the UK for civil cases, it only hears cases on ARGUABLE points of law.