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Discuss ASHP pump compatibility with power Supply in the Solar Thermal Advice Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Hi All

I’m new to the group and not actually an electrician. But please don’t hold that against me!

I’m after some advice please. I’ve come to a point in my building renovation where we are about to install a heat pump. Stiebel Elton WPL 25AS the forms for the pump had been filled in and sent to the DNO Western Power Distribution. But they have come back to say I can’t install due to the “harmonics” that this will cause on the feed in our street.

If I want to use it we need to reinforce the power supply to our house at a cost of £18,000!!! Payable by me.

Has anyone come across this before? Is there anyway to make the unit compatible such as a capacitor / resistor set up or Tesla battery before the unit?

Time is short as I’m at the project and don’t have time to enter into Westerns 6-8 week appeals process. At the moment I may have to go back to oil heating.

Any help or suggestion gratefully received. Thanks
 
Did the DNO explain what they meant by reinforcing the supply? Did they offer any information to substantiate the 18K price quotation they expect you to pay? Sorry for the questioning just seems hard to get my head around what they are asking for. Good luck whatever the outcome.
 
In my experience ASHP's are only any good in incredibly well insulated buildings.

Otherwise they end up being very very expensive to run in the winter when you need them the most.

I live north of Hadrians wall though which may have a bearing on it.
 
"Reinforcing the supply" will be increasing the supply cable size(s) either from your property back into the network or may just be increasing cable sizes in part of the network leading to your property.
You're very unlikely to win an appeal you, will have to employ experts in power network distribution to beat Western power's arguement.

£18000 in DNO work isn't much work, it may only be a few metres trenching and new cable.
You've probably already run out of time, it's usually a 3 month lead time for DNO works after the order is placed.

They should have supplied a breakdown of works costs .
 
Your electrician will need to speak with WPD.
The first response you would have had from them will include 3 telephone numbers. Your electrician will need to speak to the system / network planner whose number would have been included.
Being brutally honest, about the only explanation they would be able to give to you would be how much it costs which they have already done.
The price quoted could well suggest a new transformer off the hv network. If within 10 years this is then used for other supplies, you will be entitled to a partial refund.
A good electrician should talk a very similar language to the dno planners, be able to understand the issues with the proposed new demand and may be able to work with them for a solution if there is one available. Aren't ground source heat pumps significantly more efficient than air source ones, even if the upfront cost may be more?
A customer has recently been given a ball park figure of £18k for a supply to a single new house approaching the dno direct. All the dno were able to do is advise on costs for upgrading the existing network. After a site meeting with a network planner, informing him of two other plots just been granted planning permission, plus 15 holiday lodges and a campsite with ev charging, the ball park estimate for everything is 25k with the expectation of refunds from expected applications from a neighbour.
Sometimes you just need a professional.
 
What exactly did you tell them when you applied for the supply?
From what I can see, this inverter controlled compressor within this unit is rated at about 230v 3.2kW.... I am very surprised they have thrown this out based on harmonics.
What size supply are you requesting?
Are you in a rural area?
Have you asked Stiebel-eltron for the harmonic information of the inverter fitted within the heat pump?
You're not planning on fitting solar panels as well are you? I know the DNO are getting very twitchy now about these.
 
Did the DNO explain what they meant by reinforcing the supply? Did they offer any information to substantiate the 18K price quotation they expect you to pay? Sorry for the questioning just seems hard to get my head around what they are asking for. Good luck whatever the outcome.

So they are quoting for:

Install 75metres of 185mm 3c wavecon onto new wavecon and potexisting service breach plus road closure required.

So in short dig up road and pavement in front of 5 houses and bury a new cable.
 
What exactly did you tell them when you applied for the supply?
From what I can see, this inverter controlled compressor within this unit is rated at about 230v 3.2kW.... I am very surprised they have thrown this out based on harmonics.
What size supply are you requesting?
Are you in a rural area?
Have you asked Stiebel-eltron for the harmonic information of the inverter fitted within the heat pump?
You're not planning on fitting solar panels as well are you? I know the DNO are getting very twitchy now about these.

Hi yes the installer is going back and questioning and I have sent a mail to Stiebel, which I’ll chase up next week. Just trying to get as much info as soon as I can as we are short of time. Yes in a small village just outside Warwick. What we told them was what they asked for on the tariff form. We have gutted and extended the house to latest insulation specs and applying external insulation. So pretty well insulated. Just want to get of burning kerosene if possible but utilities don’t make it easy!!
 
Hi - just reading up a bit over lunch - apparently although the load is fairly small (no bigger than a cooker I reckon) the DNO are concerned about the level of harmonics generated by the invertor. It would be good to be able to read the form submitted and the comments returned - was it Form A on the link (?). I'm just being rude now and I've probably misunderstood, but asking you to pay for 185mm when you've added 6mm of load is a classic.
http://www.energynetworks.org/assets/files/electricity/futures/Heat Pumps/New Form A 11 Oct 2012.doc
 
I am curious about the DNO remark on harmonics. I can find no warning in the S E WPL 25AS literature about harmonics being troublesome. So I had a dabble at working out what the power consumption of the compressor is for full air-derived thermal heat output.

The unit has integral electric heating elements (selectable 3kW, 3.2kW or both) for boost heating of water and emergency heating if the compressor heat pump fails. At page 16 are details on the uses for the heating elements - here it states that the emergency /booster heaters might be an optional connection depending on what other calorific heating is available for space heating and hot water. This could then be an option for the OP if he has a back up gas boiler. I think that they should be connected and switched on via a timer to provide at least function d) below.

Connect the electric emergency/booster heater if you want to utilise the following appliance functions:

a. Mono energetic operation If the heat pump cannot reach the dual mode point, the electric emergency/booster heater ensures both the heating operation and the provision of high DHW temperatures.

b. Emergency mode Should the heat pump suffer a fault that prevents its continued operation, the heating output will be covered by the electric emergency/booster heater.

c. Heat-up program (only for underfloor heating systems) Where return temperatures are <25 °C, the electric emergency/booster heater must provide the necessary heat for screed drying.

d. Pasteurisation control The electric emergency/booster heater starts automatically when the pasteurisation control is active in order to regularly heat the DHW to 60 °C to protect it against the growth of legionella bacteria.


At page 18 of it are details of the electrical supply connections. terminal block X5 supplies the electric heaters and block X3 the inverter. So, the ASHP unit has separate external supplies (albeit they might be derived ultimately from the same consumer unit) with a fuse/mcb for each of the heaters and inverter (and also the control supply block X4). See page 39 third column from right for details of the size and type of the fuses/mcbs. The mcbs are C32A - inverter, and 2 x B16A - 2 x heaters and 1 x B16A - controller. The maximum current is stated to be 35A - I think this excludes the electric heaters because the maximum power of the boost heaters is 6.2kW or circa 25A and my calculated average power consumption of the compressor for A-7/W55 heat output of 13.97kW and a Coefficient of performance of 2.35 is 13.97/2.25 = 6.2kW so another 25A. (The table gives a figure of 5.94kW. I guess the difference is down to auxilliaries such as fans and pumps. ) I don't know why the maximum power consumption without emergency/booster heater is stated to be 8.9kW (cf 6kW) - maybe short term running of the compressor at a higher output?

Summary - using the ASHP inverter compressor alone I reckon consumes circa 6kW. If ithe emergency/booster heaters are activated alongsidde the inverter compressor then the consumption is either 9kW or 12.2kW.

I do not think a single 6kW inverter driven load is excessive in an urban setting but maybe for a weaker distribution network in a rural setting it could present a harmonic be problem hence the need for reinforcement especially if more than one system is connected.

Certainly a high load factor single phase ASHP load of circa 12kW on top of the usual household loads would require greater capacity in the cables leading to your home and in your street. I think this is the main reason for the upgrade to 185mm2 (circa 350A per phase). Waveform-Wavecon Cables | Eland Cables - https://www.elandcables.com/cables/waveform-wavecon-cables
 
Reply from S-E: 25AS Power consumption is circa 6.5kW for heat pump and 3 to 6kW for electric heaters.

Hello Sir,

Regarding the below message...

The compressor could draw 5.95kW (that is when it's -7DegC outside and the water flow is 55DegC)
I would add a further 400Watts for the fan and circulating pumps.
You are correct regarding the electric booster/backup heaters.

Regards,

John

-----Original Message-----
From: FAQ - https://www.stiebel-eltron.co.uk/en/service/faq.html

Company:
First name:
Surname: A
E-Mail: d
Telephone:
Topic: general enquiries

Message
---------

Good afternoon. Could you clarify the electrical power requirements for the Stiebel Elton WPL 25AS ?

What is the max kW the inverter driven compressor consumes?

I know that the boost/emergency heaters are 3kW and 3.2kW and are pre-selectable. So am I right that the maximum total electrical power is the power of the inverter compressor plus the power of the boost/emergency heaters?

Thank you.
 
I am curious about the DNO remark on harmonics. I can find no warning in the S E WPL 25AS literature about harmonics being troublesome. So I had a dabble at working out what the power consumption of the compressor is for full air-derived thermal heat output.

The unit has integral electric heating elements (selectable 3kW, 3.2kW or both) for boost heating of water and emergency heating if the compressor heat pump fails. At page 16 are details on the uses for the heating elements - here it states that the emergency /booster heaters might be an optional connection depending on what other calorific heating is available for space heating and hot water. This could then be an option for the OP if he has a back up gas boiler. I think that they should be connected and switched on via a timer to provide at least function d) below.

Connect the electric emergency/booster heater if you want to utilise the following appliance functions:

a. Mono energetic operation If the heat pump cannot reach the dual mode point, the electric emergency/booster heater ensures both the heating operation and the provision of high DHW temperatures.

b. Emergency mode Should the heat pump suffer a fault that prevents its continued operation, the heating output will be covered by the electric emergency/booster heater.

c. Heat-up program (only for underfloor heating systems) Where return temperatures are <25 °C, the electric emergency/booster heater must provide the necessary heat for screed drying.

d. Pasteurisation control The electric emergency/booster heater starts automatically when the pasteurisation control is active in order to regularly heat the DHW to 60 °C to protect it against the growth of legionella bacteria.


At page 18 of it are details of the electrical supply connections. terminal block X5 supplies the electric heaters and block X3 the inverter. So, the ASHP unit has separate external supplies (albeit they might be derived ultimately from the same consumer unit) with a fuse/mcb for each of the heaters and inverter (and also the control supply block X4). See page 39 third column from right for details of the size and type of the fuses/mcbs. The mcbs are C32A - inverter, and 2 x B16A - 2 x heaters and 1 x B16A - controller. The maximum current is stated to be 35A - I think this excludes the electric heaters because the maximum power of the boost heaters is 6.2kW or circa 25A and my calculated average power consumption of the compressor for A-7/W55 heat output of 13.97kW and a Coefficient of performance of 2.35 is 13.97/2.25 = 6.2kW so another 25A. (The table gives a figure of 5.94kW. I guess the difference is down to auxilliaries such as fans and pumps. ) I don't know why the maximum power consumption without emergency/booster heater is stated to be 8.9kW (cf 6kW) - maybe short term running of the compressor at a higher output?

Summary - using the ASHP inverter compressor alone I reckon consumes circa 6kW. If ithe emergency/booster heaters are activated alongsidde the inverter compressor then the consumption is either 9kW or 12.2kW.

I do not think a single 6kW inverter driven load is excessive in an urban setting but maybe for a weaker distribution network in a rural setting it could present a harmonic be problem hence the need for reinforcement especially if more than one system is connected.

Certainly a high load factor single phase ASHP load of circa 12kW on top of the usual household loads would require greater capacity in the cables leading to your home and in your street. I think this is the main reason for the upgrade to 185mm2 (circa 350A per phase). Waveform-Wavecon Cables | Eland Cables - https://www.elandcables.com/cables/waveform-wavecon-cables
P

Please see DNO, minus address, names and numbers below...
 

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