Bad Shock

[Frosty69]

Hi People,

I was at a friends house on Saturday as he has just bought the property about a month ago. Anyway I was there to clear out the loft whilst he was doing a bit of painting downstairs. I was in the loft clearing some wooden boards and bits of old stuff the previous person had left up there.
I then disturbed some insulation but found myself being electricuted and first thoughts were s**t but I would then just pull my hands away and investigate, instead I was dragged onto my side and realised this was not like any shock/belt I had ever received (all this happened within a few seconds). I could not get away from this and began to scream like crazy "turn it off" which my mate did after running upstairs then back down realising I was in trouble and not fallen through the ceiling which he first thought! About 20 seconds of being shocked.
So now the power was off I crawled to the loft hatch panicking as I couldn't breath or open my eyes properly (I remember not being able to open my eyes whilst it was happening), five minutes passed with me on my side by the hatch with my mate trying his best to help but all I could smell was the flesh burnt on both my arms (I assume line on one arm and neutral on the other), the burns are quite bad but I was more worried that my heart felt like it was going to burst!
I eventually made it down the stairs and my mate phoned the ambulance but I took a bit of a bad turn and turned white as I was still struggling with my breathing so the woman on the phone said lie him down and put his legs in the air so the blood will go to his vital organs.
Ambulance arrived and rushed me to hospital where I recovered and all tests on my heart and bloods proved nothing to worry about.
I am now dealing with the obvious burns but my left shoulder and arm are pretty much unusable at the minute, I think thats a combined injury from the electricity and also falling on my arm onto a joist quite heavily.

The cable was the old style black ally flex with two cores and no earth.

I have a few questions as I am going to lose wages etc from this event but will give a brief overview of electrics.

The mains board was changed a year ago, its a 17th edition square d board, the circuit was protected by a 6a mcb.
There is No sign of the cable that had me so it must be jointed somewhere.

1- Can I find out of the my local council (Stockport) if this job has been registered with them and who has done the work?
2- If yes to Q1 can I approach the said installer and confront him as to why he has updated the mains board but not rewired a circuit with no earth or at-least flagged the problem?
3- If the previous owner has had it done as a foreigner or done it himself can I have him prosecuted?

I basically want to recoup the money that I am going to lose in wages and I assume i will need some kind of muscle treatment.

I had another friend visit the property on Sunday as i think this is an urgent issue and the company he works for (niceic registered) are rewiring the upstairs lighting on Tuesday.

I dont want to sound all gloomy but I honestly believed that the loft was going to be my resting place and it scared the s**t out of me and was easily the worst experience of my life aged 28 and had a lot of bad things happen to me including open surgery to remove 30 cm of my bowel and recently had 40 stitches to my face after a huge mountain bike crash in wales to name but a few!

I think I should change my career to handing out soft toys to children!

Ask any questions and I will try to answer as best I can, also i was not working on the electrical system but my other friend who is rewiring it said the cables have perished quite far back and cant believe it hasn't already caused a fire.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well for a start i`d want to get my hands on a report from your NIC pal......take it from there......
hmm....could be `Mr Poland`.....could be that it was left when the last work was carried out....either way it needs sorting.....and so it is.....but you need sorting as well....for loss of earnings+injury etc.....its all very well thinking `well thats the risk you take sparkying`.....but it didn`t get there on its todd did it.....see what the NIC mate says....before owt else....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

its just i`v had to ahm..`attend` to Mr Poland`s work before.....so dont count him out will you...

 

[Geordie Spark]

Hi Frosty69

Have you considered changing your Username to Lucky69 ????

 

[Frosty69]

I wont count that out, but does that make the previous owner liable? As he has ordered the work by someone who isnt registered etc?

 

[Frosty69]

I have Geordie ha ha, my mate came up with the best line that it just confirms that I am unbreakable as I am still walking!

 

[james beckford]

Frosty,

As i understand it the new board must have been certified by someone, either self certifying or tested by local council. They are both supposed to carry out a full test. If self certifying ( as i suspect) then he/she must be either nic etc and should have liability insurance to cover exactly that kind of problem.

If tested by LABC then they should have carried out full test and, if the cable was as old and rotten as you say. it was unlikely to pass IR test. Again they should have the liability insurance for this.

If it turns out to be a diy job and not certified then you could always try and find out if the previous owner had buildings insurance with Public Liability insurance in force at the time he carried out the bodge. If he did then sue him and the insurance company. Your mate might like to have a word with his surveyors when he bought the house and see if anything was turned up in that report ?

Whichever way speak to a solicitor (not the ambulance chasers advertising on telly but a proper one) most will give you half hour for free to hear what you have to say and advise you on the best course.

Hope this helps but from the photo only plastic surgery would do that !!

 

[Geordie Spark]

I have Geordie ha ha, my mate came up with the best line that it just confirms that I am unbreakable as I am still walking!

Good lad !!!

Whatever else happens, never ever lose your sense of humour.

 

[Megavolt]

Sounds horrendous mate. Glad to here your ok and recovering.

 

[keniff]

I don't know any spark that would go into a loft and shuffle boards about etc on a fuseboard change, if the circuits test out ok, then they would just sticker the board with the no earth on lighting sticker, was any of the cable actually terminated at the lights?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I wont count that out, but does that make the previous owner liable? As he has ordered the work by someone who isnt registered etc?

well...i don`t know the legal intricacies of this....see you would have to prove (beyond any reasonable doubt) that the person ordering the work (present owner?) knew the `contractor` either wasnt.......or was incompetent to carry out the work...but chose to hire him anyway.....a tough one....
look, if theres been a recent board change.....then there should be a circuit schedule with it.....and the relevent paperwork (installation cert, schedule of inspections together with its schedule of tests).....if theres non of that....then chances are the LABC are not aware of it either......
i mean how many times do we come in here and read of stuff like `missing` paperwork eh?......its just this time someone innocent has been bitten....
look, best o luck with it....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't know any spark that would go into a loft and shuffle boards about etc on a fuseboard change, if the circuits test out ok, then they would just sticker the board with the no earth on lighting sticker, was any of the cable actually terminated at the lights?

so it might help if you actually read the O/P......since when was the O/P on a `board change`?...

 

[Marvo]

I'd start by getting photos.....lots of photos, details of all work performed, when it was done and by whom. Then seek legal advice about any loss of earnings or medical costs etc.

 

[keniff]

The mains board was changed a year ago, its a 17th edition square d board, the circuit was protected by a 6a mcb.
There is No sign of the cable that had me so it must be jointed somewhere.
.

This is what I was referring to

 

[electric will]

Yeah the op hasn't done the board change, he said it was done a year ago, circuit on 6a mcb but no mention of rcd,
to the op, would it be possible for you to take a picture of the consumer unit, and maybe if your sparky friend would be good enough to take another with the cover off, then post them on here so we could have a look?

 

[snowhead]

Given the above information, you haven't got a hope of putting the blame on the previous owner or any mysterious person who carried out the work, or of getting any compo from anyone.

You'd be wasting money and time trying to chase anyone.

However the easiest way to see if you do have a chance is to go to one of the No Win No Fee types, if they will take it on they must think there is a good chance.

 

[keniff]

I meant, the person who changed the board wouldn't have clambered up there not the bloke who has been electrocuted, that's why I wondered if the old cable was connected at the lights or jointed as the tests may have came back clear etc,

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Given the above information, you haven't got a hope of putting the blame on the previous owner or any mysterious person who carried out the work, or of getting any compo from anyone.

You'd be wasting money and time trying to chase anyone.

However the easiest way to see if you do have a chance is to go to one of the No Win No Fee types, if they will take it on they must think there is a good chance.

sad but probably true.....
mind you its worth looking up....

to the O/P....get a report from that mate of yours...together with pics as will says.....
then go to a solicitor with em......worth half n hour of your time for nowt eh?...

 

[beatboaby924y]

Sounds like a really bad one you got mate.

I 've had a few shocks as most people in the trade have over the years (sometimes my own fault for being stupid) but only once been stuck on a cable and your right it's really scary as a few seconds feels like a hour!! I was lucky I guess and managed to just get on with it after a couple of minutes of shaking only suffering a fright and small burns. Your case however sounds more serious.

Hoping the work has been reported to the council would be your best bet, but dont think you should hold you'll breath, hopefully the company will still be in business! If they are they would have to show a certificate for the DB change over but could possible have listed in the limitations that they had no access to the loft or something similar to cover themselves.

Think you'll have a hard time proving whos at fault mate, never mind money out of someone. you'll maybe have to put it down to experience unfortunately.

 

[Marvo]

I'd definately get soe legal advice but it's always going to be difficult to prove negligence. Often with an accident or even a death the blame lies with more than one party, there could even be 3 or 4 contributing factors cause by different people so I'd go as far as investigating and recording but be careful about throwing good money after bad. Bear in mind that 90% of these cases it's only the lawyers that are the winners.

 

[Richard Burns]

I wish you all the best with your recovery, I hope you will be back to normal very soon. Good luck, nasty thing to happen.

I agree: get photographs of what is there now, as soon as possible, get some one out there, record anything you can, photos, cables, labels, walls everything.
Write out a statement of what happened to you as you have done here and keep a record of it with dates and times.

This will stand you in good stead later.

However that said if more than one year has passed since the CU change then this may be outside times for action wrt The building act.
There is very little chance that you would be able to sue the previous contractor if the tests were OK, since inspection of a circuit is not required for a CU change.
One could also say that this was natural deterioration of the installation that has only been identified now (by you).

But still it is worth inquiring of a solicitor what actions are possible, and I wish you luck with your success.

 

[timo1]

Sorry to hear about your injury mate, ive been in a loft and put my hand on a live un-terminated cable under insulation, but fortunately I tripped the RCD as as I crushed the cores together (old T +E) If nothing else you have reminded me to be extra vigilant. Cant offer anymore than has already been written. Hope your recovery is swift.

 

[timbobelfast]

Sounds like a nasty experience, very lucky you had somebody near or you would have been toast.

I wish you all the best in your recovery.

 

[UNG]

I don't think you have got much chance of success with your claim against the previous home owner or the company that carried out the EICR

Text Taken From EICR Form

It should be noted that cables concealed within trunking and conduits, under floors, in roof spaces, and generally within the fabric of the building or underground, have not been inspected unless specifically agreed between the client and inspector prior to the inspection.

If the tests completed at the time of the board swap indicated that all was ok then that was the limit of the inspection. I don't know of anybody who would go into a loft and move floor boarding or thermal insulation to visually inspect cables

IMO the only claim you have is against the current home owner as an EICR is as good as a MOT in that at the time of inspection it was ok with no warranty given in the 12 month's since the EICR was carried out other influences could have caused the damage you inadvertently found

 

[keniff]

It's a shame but I agree ^^^

 

[Deleted member 9648]

^^^^......and me....^^^^
Is everyone on here saying they inspect every inch of cable on an install when they do a CU change?.....It's a CU change,if it included an EICR there might be a claim.
A close inspection of the EIC for the CU change is needed before jumping to conclusions.

Hope you get well soon BTW.

 

[ian.settle1]

And just think some idiot of an MP who thought up the idea of Part P didn't know that it wouldn't work

 

[ayjay]

there may be a chance that the installer has stuck his label on the c/u

 

[Silly Sausage]

Here's a thought...(I'm assuming the cable in the loft, with no earth, the insulation was so degraded it crumbled in Frosty's hand)
The person who did the CU change could well have carried out a global L&N to E IR test and it passed.
Because the suspect cable has no Earth, the test wouldn't have picked up on it.
So you could argue the CU installer is not at fault.
However, a L to N IR test would possibly have indicated a fault.



Anyway, I hope your burns are not too bad, horrible injuries.
Get well soon!

 

[Frosty69]

Hi,

Thanks for all the advice and get well wishes. My friend rewired the lighting today so atleast its all safe for my other mate who owns the house now. He got lots of pictures etc and has flagged up a huge list of problems with the D/B which I will get off him and post on here to see what people think, I don't hold out much hope of someone getting blamed but the only sticker on the D/B is the generic periodic assessment one that comes with every board so i think either the last owner or a friend has done it.
Even if my post shocks (pardon the pun) people into being a bit more careful then hopefully thats a few more genuine people that don't go through that kind of experience.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Here's a thought...(I'm assuming the cable in the loft, with no earth, the insulation was so degraded it crumbled in Frosty's hand)
The person who did the CU change could well have carried out a global L&N to E IR test and it passed.
Because the suspect cable has no Earth, the test wouldn't have picked up on it.
So you could argue the CU installer is not at fault.
However, a L to N IR test would possibly have indicated a fault.



Anyway, I hope your burns are not too bad, horrible injuries.
Get well soon!

well if he`s just done a `limited` IR test on a board change.....then he wants his arse kickin in.....

 

[ackbarthestar]

I hate electric shocks, and i really do sympathize with you but....
This all seems a bit of: 'Well, I've just been shafted near to death, but I'm alright now, I've got the lads in to clear away the evidence. so lets see who we can sue'

Also, it does sounds as though your heart went briefly into fibrillation for a while and somehow came back into correct operation - you lucky bugger !

I would like to know, since this is a registered hospital incident and now made public through this forum, that the H&SE hasn't been informed.

I appreciate that the incident didn't happen on works time and may not involve an action under HASAWA or EAWR. But it may come under the Building Control regs. and as this is a regulatory document, it should have been reported by somebody (hospital no doubt).

I would think maximum publicity through various interested agencies who would be more than happy to invest in pursuing any culpable parties using the incident as an example of a near miss might be expedient...

You need to settle down for a while and recuperate and take time off any work activities just in case. Possibly register for short term sickness benefit if you are employed.