Best first step to remedy bypassed domestic RCD box?

[Jay21]

Moved into 60's semi and had work done to renew kitchen, including new induction hob, cooker etc.
3 qualified electricians came to quote and each mentioned that someone had bypassed one of the RCDs (?) in the main box (Branded GET/Schupa), so that circuits to the right of the attached photo are not protected. (marked by yellow arrow)
All wanted to do full PAT and replace box before actually attaching new applicances, which may be fair enough.
But what I don't get is why nobody as yet has suggested simply reinstating the bypassed circuit - and seeing if it trips now that the old appliances (including an old Belling cooker) have been replaced by new ones.
That way I might be able to continue with existing box temporarily (as funds are limited due to having had to do various other works in house).

Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[buzzlightyear]

oh dear ,looks you will have to pay the three sparks to sort it out for you .

 

[telectrix]

oh dear ,looks you will have to pay the three sparks to sort it out for you .

sod that. he just needs to get a spark with a brain. i'll fix that . no problem. sensible cost.

 

[ipf]

Obviously circuit problems so ask one of the electricians to investigate....with a cost per hour. As regards Portable Appliance Testing....are you meaning EICR, ie. a full installation condition report?

 

[buzzlightyear]

sod that. he just needs to get a spark with a brain. i'll fix that . no problem. sensible cost.

pm him tele ,he not for from you.

 

[Mike177]

Moved into 60's semi and had work done to renew kitchen, including new induction hob, cooker etc.
3 qualified electricians came to quote and each mentioned that someone had bypassed one of the RCDs (?) in the main box (Branded GET/Schupa), so that circuits to the right of the attached photo are not protected. (marked by yellow arrow)
All wanted to do full PAT and replace box before actually attaching new applicances, which may be fair enough.
But what I don't get is why nobody as yet has suggested simply reinstating the bypassed circuit - and seeing if it trips now that the old appliances (including an old Belling cooker) have been replaced by new ones.
That way I might be able to continue with existing box temporarily (as funds are limited due to having had to do various other works in house).View attachment 47864
Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Pete999]

pm him tele ,he not for from you.

He's not far away either, sorry Buzz, no insult intended

 

[ipf]

pm him tele ,he not for from you.

A clever person spells correctly....a wise person couldn't care a tinkers w......You must be wise, buzz

 

[Wilko]

Hi - the reason this sort of thing is done is to cover up a fault . It does need fixing ...

 

[telectrix]

can't pm him. his profile does not have the option. strange he gone offline within 20 mins of OP.

 

[Pete999]

can't pm him. his profile does not have the option. strange he gone offline within 20 mins of OP.

He'll be back (Arnold Schwarzenegger) no that's I'll be back isn't it?

 

[Jay21]

Obviously circuit problems so ask one of the electricians to investigate....with a cost per hour. As regards Portable Appliance Testing....are you meaning EICR, ie. a full installation condition report?

Not sure, but £300 seems to be the going rate - then £200 to get the box changed

 

[Jay21]

can't pm him. his profile does not have the option. strange he gone offline within 20 mins of OP.

Yeah, a lot on today. Just wondering why nobody seems to be able to answer the original question i.e. if the RCD has been bypassed, why not connect it up again and test that circuit?? - given the old cooker which might have been the reason for the bypassing (by previous electrician) has now been replaced.
If that solves, a lot less than £500...

 

[ipf]

Not sure, but £300 seems to be the going rate - then £200 to get the box changed

If that's per hour pm tel.....pronto

 

[telectrix]

hmmm.before splashing out that sort of dosh. first thing is to get the fault sorted. then it's time to decide if you want to upgrade the board when there's no legal obligation to do so.

 

[telectrix]

Yeah, a lot on today. Just wondering why nobody seems to be able to answer the original question i.e. if the RCD has been bypassed, why not connect it up again and test that circuit?? - given the old cooker which might have been the reason for the bypassing (by previous electrician) has now been replaced.
If that solves, a lot less than £500...

see post #15

 

[Jay21]

can't pm him. his profile does not have the option. strange he gone offline within 20 mins of OP.

BTW, just to let you know if you look at your Facebook page and click on the website link, it goes off to some American site in Connecticut. HTH.

 

[Jay21]

can't pm him. his profile does not have the option. strange he gone offline within 20 mins of OP.

BTW, just to let you know if you look at your Facebook page and click on the website link, it goes off to some American site in Connecticut. HTH.

hmmm.before splashing out that sort of dosh. first thing is to get the fault sorted. then it's time to decide if you want to upgrade the board when there's no legal obligation to do so.

Yeah, that's what I thought but unfortunately the last three 'free quotes' only resulted in the £500 route. Hence me asking about the bypass reversal here.

 

[Pete999]

hmmm.before splashing out that sort of dosh. first thing is to get the fault sorted. then it's time to decide if you want to upgrade the board when there's no legal obligation to do so.

Is there anything Legal involved? as BS 7671 is NOT a legal document, only an advisory one.

 

[ipf]

If it's original mid sixties wiring with an added kitchen renewal, god knows what you're going to find, though!!

 

[buzzlightyear]

knows what you're going to find, though!!

one tin of beans the other a can of worms.

 

[dinger809]

What I can’t figure from that pic, is if there was an issue on one of the circuits, why not just put that in the non RCD side of the board, leaving the rest protected?
That could be done now just as a temporary measure, there are spare ways there.

 

[telectrix]

BTW, just to let you know if you look at your Facebook page and click on the website link, it goes off to some American site in Connecticut. HTH.

Yeah, that's what I thought but unfortunately the last three 'free quotes' only resulted in the £500 route. Hence me asking about the bypass reversal here.

we are only guessing without a site visit. an honest appraisal is essential. as an example. i'd come out and spend up to an hour tracing the fault for a max.of £75. if not sorted within that time, then a quote would be given.

 

[Deleted account]

Yeah, a lot on today. Just wondering why nobody seems to be able to answer the original question i.e. if the RCD has been bypassed, why not connect it up again and test that circuit?? - given the old cooker which might have been the reason for the bypassing (by previous electrician) has now been replaced.
If that solves, a lot less than £500...

I wouldn't be prepared to reconnect up again until an Eicr is done.
Once that's done and if no faults are found yes reconnect up.

However I would want to change the CU as only having one RCD protecting all those circuits is not good design.
And you must now take into consideration circuits design and spread between appropriate number of rcd,s in installation to minimise the loss of too many circuits in the event of a fault.
I definately wouldn't put the new oven and induction hob on same rcd as all those other circuits.

So yes agree with 3 other sparks a new CU. ether an RCD split board or preferably an RCBO board with surge protection.

Surge protection is a whole other discussion.

 

[magnoliafan89]

What I can’t figure from that pic, is if there was an issue on one of the circuits, why not just put that in the non RCD side of the board, leaving the rest protected?
That could be done now just as a temporary measure, there are spare ways there.

Simple...whoever did it couldn't think cause all they could hear was the jangling of the spurs on their boots.....

 

[sparksburnout]

I wouldn't be prepared to reconnect up again until an Eicr is done.
Once that's done and if no faults are found yes reconnect up.

However I would want to change the CU as only having one RCD protecting all those circuits is not good design.
And you must now take into consideration circuits design and spread between appropriate number of rcd,s in installation to minimise the loss of too many circuits in the event of a fault.
I definately wouldn't put the new oven and induction hob on same rcd as all those other circuits.

So yes agree with 3 other sparks a new CU. ether an RCD split board or preferably an RCBO board with surge protection.

Surge protection is a whole other discussion.

What a load of rollocks. There are thousands of CU's with a single RCD protecting multiple circuits. Would you want to rip the customer off by changing the CU every time something simple like an oven or hob needed connecting up? What do you mean surge protection where did that come from??

 

[Jay21]

see post #15

?? There's only 18 posts

What I can’t figure from that pic, is if there was an issue on one of the circuits, why not just put that in the non RCD side of the board, leaving the rest protected?
That could be done now just as a temporary measure, there are spare ways there.

Thanks, that sounds interesting - shall ask next guy who comes.

 

[Jay21]

I wouldn't be prepared to reconnect up again until an Eicr is done.
Once that's done and if no faults are found yes reconnect up.

However I would want to change the CU as only having one RCD protecting all those circuits is not good design.
And you must now take into consideration circuits design and spread between appropriate number of rcd,s in installation to minimise the loss of too many circuits in the event of a fault.
I definately wouldn't put the new oven and induction hob on same rcd as all those other circuits.

So yes agree with 3 other sparks a new CU. ether an RCD split board or preferably an RCBO board with surge protection.

Surge protection is a whole other discussion.

Thanks for the clear advice, understand your points about the CU and not connecting oven and hob on same RCD (those induction hobs seem to be quite power hungry). Also understand the sense of having EICRs done periodically.
As a punter though, still feel the need to query why restoring the bypassed 30mA RCCB - to see if the tripping issue no longer happens - is not being considered even as an option?
The house was rewired around 15+ years ago, and the CU is no longer made but is not exactly something out of the Ark - and the RCCB is obviously working, since it kept tripping for the original guy.
So restoring the bypassed cable will IMHO either result in the RCCB tripping again (meaning more investigation of the circuits, obviously) or it not tripping (presumably meaning that removing the old appliance solved the problem).
If NICEIC regulations etc. specifically prohibit this, then fair enough - would not want a spark to compromise and at the end of the day I am always happy to pay for good work especially where it is essential, and am known for usually giving a decent bonus on top.
Not so happy with the type of guys (NICEIC certified as well) who come along for five minutes, don't even bother to take the cover of the CU off and say airily 'right, that'll cost you £500 for a wiring test and a new CU'. Smacks too much of just being a nice little earner. And probably encourages a lot of people to just give up and go with an unqualified but more flexible spark, which seems to be happening more often round here.

 

[GBDamo]

Thanks for the clear advice, understand your points about the CU and not connecting oven and hob on same RCD (those induction hobs seem to be quite power hungry). Also understand the sense of having EICRs done periodically.
As a punter though, still feel the need to query why restoring the bypassed 30mA RCCB - to see if the tripping issue no longer happens - is not being considered even as an option?
The house was rewired around 15+ years ago, and the CU is no longer made but is not exactly something out of the Ark - and the RCCB is obviously working, since it kept tripping for the original guy.
So restoring the bypassed cable will IMHO either result in the RCCB tripping again (meaning more investigation of the circuits, obviously) or it not tripping (presumably meaning that removing the old appliance solved the problem).
If NICEIC regulations etc. specifically prohibit this, then fair enough - would not want a spark to compromise and at the end of the day I am always happy to pay for good work especially where it is essential, and am known for usually giving a decent bonus on top.
Not so happy with the type of guys (NICEIC certified as well) who come along for five minutes, don't even bother to take the cover of the CU off and say airily 'right, that'll cost you £500 for a wiring test and a new CU'. Smacks too much of just being a nice little earner. And probably encourages a lot of people to just give up and go with an unqualified but more flexible spark, which seems to be happening more often round here.

What you're suggesting, reconnecting the iffy circuit and seeing if the RCD trips, is affectionately known as bang testing round these parts and is quite rightly frowned upon.

As has been suggested, the iffy circuit can be tested and if ok reinstated. It could well have been an appliance fault causing the tripping, who knows though without testing.

You should be able to get an answer easily and cheaply if you employ an electrician to do just that. So don't say "what do you think I need" rather state "I believe there is a fault on this circuit, would like it tested and, if fault free, reinstated on the RCD side of the CU" then"if there is a fault I'd like a price to remedy it and reinstate on the RCD side of the CU"

Ignore the BSer and keep asking until one says "yes sir I can do that for you"

Repairing the fault, in the event there is one, is a bit of an known unknown (Donald Rumsfeld) but should be significantly cheaper than the £500 quoted.

I'm in the 'no need to replace the CU' camp.

 

[Jay21]

What you're suggesting, reconnecting the iffy circuit and seeing if the RCD trips, is affectionately known as bang testing round these parts and is quite rightly frowned upon.

As has been suggested, the iffy circuit can be tested and if ok reinstated. It could well have been an appliance fault causing the tripping, who knows though without testing.

You should be able to get an answer easily and cheaply if you employ an electrician to do just that. So don't say "what do you think I need" rather state "I believe there is a fault on this circuit, would like it tested and, if fault free, reinstated on the RCD side of the CU" then"if there is a fault I'd like a price to remedy it and reinstate on the RCD side of the CU"

Ignore the BSer and keep asking until one says "yes sir I can do that for you"

Repairing the fault, in the event there is one, is a bit of an known unknown (Donald Rumsfeld) but should be significantly cheaper than the £500 quoted.

I'm in the 'no need to replace the CU' camp.

Thanks, mate - really appreciate the advice which seems sound to me.
NOT a cheapskate, and really value good trades people and don't quibble or haggle - but none of the three guys I got (all registered, all big ads in local paper) gave me much confidence. Too slick, too quick to jump to the 'nuclear option' and not keen to really explain things in simple terms.
I'll go your route - and obviously happy to fork out for an EICR for my own piece of mind down the road.
Cheers.

 

[sparksburnout]

Thanks, mate - really appreciate the advice which seems sound to me.
NOT a cheapskate, and really value good trades people and don't quibble or haggle - but none of the three guys I got (all registered, all big ads in local paper) gave me much confidence. Too slick, too quick to jump to the 'nuclear option' and not keen to really explain things in simple terms.
I'll go your route - and obviously happy to fork out for an EICR for my own piece of mind down the road.
Cheers.

You don't need a new CU and you probably don't need anything other than new appliances. It will more as likely be a faulty original oven, it's a simple job for a spark to check the circuit in question. There is no problem having the oven and hob on the same RCD or even the same cable as long as it is rated accordingly. Sounds like these "NIC" sparks are just on the make to me.

 

[Deleted account]

I agree you don't need a new cu for the works you are carrying out, but I would recomend it.

It's my opinion, but as the customer the choice is yours and I would carry out works to your requirements if it was within the regs. But I would give you reasons why I would recomend CU.

As I explained in earlier post that sparks burnt out commented on its not good design to have too many circuits on one RCD.

 

[Jay21]

You don't need a new CU and you probably don't need anything other than new appliances. It will more as likely be a faulty original oven, it's a simple job for a spark to check the circuit in question. There is no problem having the oven and hob on the same RCD or even the same cable as long as it is rated accordingly. Sounds like these "NIC" sparks are just on the make to me.

Yeah, I heard that olde Belling type electric ovens can often cause the tripping, so think you might be right there.
Thanks - definitely agree with you about them being 'on the make' !
Cheers

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Looks to me, that there are two circuits (3 & 4) that have been disconnected.
Also judging by the 6mm2 crimps, it looks like someone has relocated the 2nd RCD protected circuit from the non-RCD side.

 

[Jay21]

I agree you don't need a new cu for the works you are carrying out, but I would recomend it.

It's my opinion, but as the customer the choice is yours and I would carry out works to your requirements if it was within the regs. But I would give you reasons why I would recomend CU.

As I explained in earlier post that sparks burnt out commented on its not good design to have too many circuits on one RCD.

Yep, given that GET/Schupa aren't made any more and you can only (just about) get spares via eBay, I know that down the line it makes sense to get a new CU - hopefully that manufacturer won't be swallowed up. I'm just not keen on the sparks who make a new CU the first/only option before trying a simpler solution to begin with.

 

[Jay21]

Looks to me, that there are two circuits (3 & 4) that have been disconnected.
Also judging by the 6mm2 crimps, it looks like someone has relocated the 2nd RCD protected circuit from the non-RCD side.

Thanks for the info - just realised it might help if I uploaded the front of the CU, showing the (theoretical...) circuit names.

 

[telectrix]

see post #3. manchester is OK for me as long as it's not too far to the east side.

 

[DPG]

Not so happy with the type of guys (NICEIC certified as well) who come along for five minutes, don't even bother to take the cover of the CU off and say airily 'right, that'll cost you £500 for a wiring test and a new CU'. Smacks too much of just being a nice little earner. And probably encourages a lot of people to just give up and go with an unqualified but more flexible spark, which seems to be happening more often round here.

I thought each of the electricians had told you that the RCD had been bypassed - they must have took the cover off to know this.

 

[Jay21]

I thought each of the electricians had told you that the RCD had been bypassed - they must have took the cover off to know this.

Actually only the original unqualified electrician (sent by the kitchen fitter and not a great worker) took the cover off and said this (because he was about to connect up the appliances). The other three qualified electricians were informed by me of the first guy saying there was a bypass - and they just stood there, making no move to take the cover off and actually examine the box, simply quoting an initial job cost.
The whole point in me posting here was to meet up with sparks who use their brain rather than thinking of a number and then doubling it without making any effort to analyse the situation. Fortunately had some helpful replies on here.

 

[davesparks]

As a punter though, still feel the need to query why restoring the bypassed 30mA RCCB - to see if the tripping issue no longer happens - is not being considered even as an option?

This would not be a sensible option as the RCD may not trip straight away, if an electrician was to reconnect the RCD and leave it at that then you may find that it trips a couple of hours later and causes you some problems.

The sensible approach in my opinion would be to test the circuits and test the RCD itself before reconnecting it (if all tests show positive results).

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Does the cooker switch have a plug socket on it?

 

[Jay21]

This would not be a sensible option as the RCD may not trip straight away, if an electrician was to reconnect the RCD and leave it at that then you may find that it trips a couple of hours later and causes you some problems.

The sensible approach in my opinion would be to test the circuits and test the RCD itself before reconnecting it (if all tests show positive results).

I think I'd live with the RCD maybe tripping and having to call the spark back. That way, if it did not trip, it seems I save £300 on a potentially unnecessary test (though obviously if the RCD does trip, a test is clearly necessary). Thanks.

 

[Jay21]

Does the cooker switch have a plug socket on it?

(Late answer due to being away). Yes, a single 3 pin socket and rocker switch for cooker. As it happens, this is the one new appliance that is working - the original not so great spark sent in by the plumber said he could wire this up as it was an existing circuit (replacing the old Belling electric cooker).

 

[shaun1]

I think I'd live with the RCD maybe tripping and having to call the spark back. That way, if it did not trip, it seems I save £300 on a potentially unnecessary test (though obviously if the RCD does trip, a test is clearly necessary). Thanks.

The test required to check for the main cause of RCD tripping (insulation resistance test) would takearound 10 mins to perform (and even less time if you unplugged everything first). You could have that done, an earth loop test on each circuit and the RCD re instated within an hour, 2 tops, if all the tests were good. So theres a good chance you wouldnt have to pay any more than the minumimum call out fee to have it tested and reinstated.

I imadgine most people would advise having some more in depth testing carried out as you dont know the history of the instalation, and if someone has carried out that modification who knows what else they have done!

 

[davesparks]

I think I'd live with the RCD maybe tripping and having to call the spark back. That way, if it did not trip, it seems I save £300 on a potentially unnecessary test (though obviously if the RCD does trip, a test is clearly necessary). Thanks.

Where do you get £300 from? Basic tests of the circuits and the RCD won't take long.
I'm not suggesting a full EICR with associated paperwork etc, just basic tests to establish the state of play.

 

[Jay21]

Thanks for that Shaun, very clear. Every spark who I've had so far has just made out that the first step is a £300 test, plus likely £200 CU... and no doubt one or two would find it necessary to rewire the house if not demolish it altogether and do a new build!
A shame, these qualified but greedy types are making it harder for the decent sparks out there. Neighbours of mine who sensibly thought about a rewire before doing extensive redecorations and plastering gave up after receiving 4 over-the-top quotes and just went ahead with the decorating instead.
The trick seems to be working your way through the chancers to get to the guys out to just make an honest living. Very time consuming if you have to take time off for a quote visit each time, but the information I've got so far from some of you guys on the forum has really helped.
Incidentally, at one point I did just give up and OK a £300 test - after me hauling the kitchen carcasses out into the living room the CICEIC firm (a Which? 'Trusted Trader') then failed to turn up at the allotted time, and eventually a junior at the firm arrived saying that "the Boss and his son had to go to a [no doubt more lucrative] emergency in the night" so he'd come in the meantime. When I asked when the others would be turning up he looked embarrassed and shrugged his shoulders, so I gently turned him round and told him that I wasn't in the habit of paying good money to unreliable companies. (Assuming I might go on to post negative comments on his various shiny social media accounts, the Boss phoned the next day to make out that he hadn't been able to come due to his son 'being ill' - he clearly hadn't realised that the junior had let slip the real reason).

 

[Jay21]

Where do you get £300 from? Basic tests of the circuits and the RCD won't take long.
I'm not suggesting a full EICR with associated paperwork etc, just basic tests to establish the state of play.

See earlier posts - from now 4 local (3 NICEIC, 1 not) sparks. None mentioned Shaun's sort of first step solution but am now glad to be aware of this.

 

[telectrix]

think i stated in an earlier post that manchester is within my area of operations and could certainly come over to give an honest appraisal and maybe fix the problem for a lot less than £300

 

[DPG]

A shame, these qualified but greedy types are making it harder for the decent sparks out there. Neighbours of mine who sensibly thought about a rewire before doing extensive redecorations and plastering gave up after receiving 4 over-the-top quotes and just went ahead with the decorating instead..

If all 4 quotes were of the similar 'over the top' amount, then they probably weren't over-the-top!

 

[Jjc]

Yeah, a lot on today. Just wondering why nobody seems to be able to answer the original question i.e. if the RCD has been bypassed, why not connect it up again and test that circuit?? - given the old cooker which might have been the reason for the bypassing (by previous electrician) has now been replaced.
If that solves, a lot less than £500...

Well you seem to know best so why ask advice from qualified people?