Bonding dilemma

[Darkwood]

If you read the original post, he had not done the installation work, he was called in after the fact to work on a heating system, and noticed the bonding was incorrect, so legally once you inform the client that remedial work is required your "Duty of Care" has been passed.

If the client does not want it rectified then you are under no legal obligation to carry out the work,your best bet is to walk away, however and this is the important bit, if you then do work on the installation and issue a cert you are legally responsible and must then rectify it as you have declared the installation safe.
As the installation is not certified the legal responsibility for any injury or death lies with the original installer and the resident.
And yes, if the householder was killed, and you can show that you did not carry out any work on the installation and had informed the householder that remedial work needed to be carried out to make it safe you are not legally responsible. it's down to the semantics of Law.
The original installer is responsible. cert or no cert.

Would seem your relating to the OP specific circumstances, the thread has developed since then and thus I was talking in general terms and not the OP's situe.. we seem to be both expressing the same message from different angles but your previous post was a little ambiguous and suggested you could write away a responsibility just because the customer has been informed 'well that's how it read to me' , from this post it seems thats not what you were meaning so seems we do agree after all. :stooge_curly:

 

[leep82]

Just done a job where the customer wanted loft lighting installed. First thing i checked when i went to look at the job was the bonding to gas and water. I got a funny look and was asked why this was necessary by the customer, i carry an nic information sheet with me that explains why it is needed and i allowed them to read this. I told the customer that i would do a continuity check to prove that both services had been bonded ( which they turned out to be ) and if i found that they weren't i would not be able to carry out any work until it was rectified. I think because id taken the time to explain it was appreciated by the customer, who in turn was willing to have the work done should it have been required. I certainly would have had no hesitation walking away from the job if they'd insisted they didn't want it doing.

 

[Knobhead]

Regarding the bond connection to be 600mm from the point of entry, as Flanders rightly pointed out “as near as practical”. Now here’s something to consider:

BS copper pipe of 0.8mm wall thickness.

π x (Do/2)² - π x (Di/2)² = CSA mm²
Where:
Do = outside diameter
Di = inside diameter

Therefore:
15mm pipe = 35.69mm²
22mm pipe = 53.28mm²

Much better than a bit of 10mm singles and far less prone to damage or disconnection.

 

[Silly Sausage]

'appen, but then the bond connection could be anywhere.
At least with the 600mm 'rule', it gives a location where it is most likely to be found.

 

[telectrix]

IMO, the only reason the 600mm rule is specified is to negate any effects on the bonding by alterations to the pipework in the installation. i.e. if any plastic is introduced, it's hopefully downstream of the bond , and so the extraneous pipework is still bonded.

 

[Knobhead]

'appen, but then the bond connection could be anywhere.
At least with the 600mm 'rule', it gives a location where it is most likely to be found.

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

 

[davesparks]

Much better than a bit of 10mm singles and far less prone to damage or disconnection.

They are both equally prone to disconnection when the leak merchants arrive to start launching their toy-town pipes in and set up the new waterfall down the staircase.

 

[telectrix]

my gas is bonded where the pipe passes the CU. the water is bonded to the gas pipe in the garage. none of these bonds are anywhere near the points of entry. does it work? YES. am i bothered? NO.

 

[nickblake]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

 

[Deleted account]

Surely basic pre work checks would have told you there was no bonding and the customer could have been told prior to work comencing. Then if they refused you could walk away without breaking any regs and customer would have no heating.
Customer probably thinks you are trying to pull a fast one, maybe try to explain the importance of bonding. Put it in writing and ask them to get a second opinion from another fully qualified registered electrician.
I always quote the compitant persons scheme to customers when I want them to get a second opinion. You would not believe the number of customers who suddenly start believing you when you say things like that.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

See post #85 if you don't understand the reason a main bond needs to be at the point of entry.

 

[Knobhead]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

That says it all, thank you

 

[Essex_]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

There is a specific part of the new amendment 3 certs for putting locations of bonding and special locations which now have to be listed.

 

[Knobhead]

See post #85 if you don't understand the reason a main bond needs to be at the point of entry.

Oh deary me, why don’t they teach electrical theory now.

Just because the IET say something is right it doesn’t make it right. They seem to think they can change the laws of physics for the convenience of the uneducated.

 

[GMES]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

Here you go Tony these might cheer you up if you're having a bad day

 

[telectrix]

the gorilla lives! flash is alive!

 

[Silly Sausage]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

Don't mention labels, you'll trip Eng's Labels sensor.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

We know!

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

Sorry Chief, my psychic powers aren't working today.

 

[Darkwood]

On the note of bonding ... and reminded me by Tonys csa of the copper pipe....consider a commercial or industrial set-up with a TNCS supply that would to reg's require a 50mm earthing conductor to ensure any network faults could piggy back the pipework if necessary - if point of bonding etc is attached or the incoming service is small in nature then the pipe itself is not sufficient to meet the required size - what to do?

 

[Biff61]

Would seem your relating to the OP specific circumstances, the thread has developed since then and thus I was talking in general terms and not the OP's situe.. we seem to be both expressing the same message from different angles but your previous post was a little ambiguous and suggested you could write away a responsibility just because the customer has been informed 'well that's how it read to me' , from this post it seems thats not what you were meaning so seems we do agree after all. :stooge_curly:

Am on the same page, but I feel there is too much of an onus on sparks coming in on a recent install to fix the omissions and mistakes of the muppet who originally did the install without getting paid for it because the regs state it should be done.
If it was a quick fix and it was only a bonding strap and a couple of meters of cable I would do it no problem, but when it means that you have to spend time and money and the client does not want to pay for it then its a different matter.
It would be helpful if we had some form of check list like you get with your MOT, any faults found have to be rectified before the vehicle is fit for purpose.The MOT centre once it gives you this list has passed its duty of care and if you then decide to drive then any accidents that can be seen to be caused by the list of defects given to you are your fault.
The same should be with wiring, give the owner a list of the defects that have to be rectified and a good reason why they must be corrected before you commence any work, and if they give the go ahead ensure you are paid for it.

I work for a global Humanitarian agency through out East and Central Africa, the nightmares i see every day would make your hair stand, getting materials is a lengthy process so when I have to remedy any work it can take a long time,in the meantime I usually have to try and make the installation as safe as I can possibly do.
The local sparks are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, standards do not exist, bonding and earthing "what's that?"
practical skills,
ok list of the things Ive seen
Drilling steel with the drill on hammer
Unable to put an SDS bit in the drill.
Using a blowtorch to heat 20mm PVC to bend, without a spring, and the spring is sitting there beside him.
twisting and taping cables from 1.5 to 120sq to make a join.
Using a hammer to put on lugs
A spirit level is non existent.
Just spent this morning teaching the contractors we have in to install new UPS powered sockets and LAN cable how to cut and bend cable tray.
I have one guy who takes the word hack in hacksawliterally, he would be better off with an Axe.

If they have training, it has been two years in college learning theory, which they are good at but a lot of my time is spent teaching the basics of practical work, and they will still revert to the old practices if you do not keep on their necks.
if I was able to upload pictures it would explain an awful lot, but it asks for an URL, anyone one know how I can upload straight from my pics folder.

New building codes are being introduced here in Ethiopia, the are adapted and adopted from the IEEE, Canadian and Australian regs, but they are only as good if they are implemented.

 

[Darkwood]

I think your missing the point, we are not just talking about a minor deviation/omission here we are talking about the earthing system (safety net) of the install,it was at one point just a precaution regarding the possibility of touch voltage PD between services and earthed points usually during a fault but with the introduction of PME/TNCS the extra concern of network issues where your pipework may become the return path for a E/N fault. This situe' has only been more so highlighted by the spate of cable theft where the earthtap of the 11kv Tx's were been pinched leaving many houses with dangerous and damaging floating neutrals - this is where the bonding can reflect its importance.

Your experience with other nations and their practices and regulations seems to have made you slightly complacent to the importance of bonding when it is required over here in the U of K .... you need to realise that this importance is drilled into us at college and anyone choosing to ignore it or make it optional is not a competent Electrician, we have a career of following in the footsteps of shoddy below standard or dated work so how is this any different to that, as i said 'If the main earth was missing then you wouldn't hesitate in putting it in' so why is the requirement of the bonding any different considering the job they do.