Book times for chopping boxes in walls

[stimpy]

Evening,

Anyone know the book/industry times for chopping 1g & 2g 35mm back boxes in concrete block and then fixing . All using power tools.

I know how long it would take me! But will be subbies... My luckins doesnt list it and my old spons only has chopping by hand times which I reckon my mum could do quicker...

TIA

 

[Pete999]

You havin a a laugh?

 

[diditrain]

How long you giving the plasterer to make good, after your choppers are trying to beat the clock?

 

[camerabloke]

It takes as long as it takes

 

[stevey1983]

1hr for 1 gang 2 hrs for 2gang

 

[VoltzElectrical]

surely it depends on what the building fabric is? I just installed two spurs in my own garage and I swear it was the hardest concrete block I have ever encountered. I have also just done done a kitchen rewire where the plaster etc just fell out as soon as I showed it the SDS. Every job is different.

Also on that same job, it involved lots of chasing, split the ring and added 4 new points, and as is my method, plastered my cables and boxes in with Hardwall (no fixings - you'd have to see it to understand). What with adding lighting for under cabinets and a cooker point, lifting and replacing floorboards and carpet, tracing and disconnecting unused points etc it took me 2 days of sweat and toil on my own. I charged £250 labour. Any thoughts?

 

[Pete999]

1hr for 1 gang 2 hrs for 2gang

Flip me that rinsin it a bit aint it? I could chop in, put the socket on, test it and on the way home within an hour.

 

[PEG]

surely it depends on what the building fabric is? I just installed two spurs in my own garage and I swear it was the hardest concrete block I have ever encountered. I have also just done done a kitchen rewire where the plaster etc just fell out as soon as I showed it the SDS. Every job is different.

Also on that same job, it involved lots of chasing, split the ring and added 4 new points, and as is my method, plastered my cables and boxes in with Hardwall (no fixings - you'd have to see it to understand). What with adding lighting for under cabinets and a cooker point, lifting and replacing floorboards and carpet, tracing and disconnecting unused points etc it took me 2 days of sweat and toil on my own. I charged £250 labour. Any thoughts?

Sounds very fair. And,you earned it the hard way. :stooge_curly:

 

[uksparks]

It takes as long as it takes

Peppa Pig-Digging Up The Road - YouTube

Look at this link, between 1 min and 1 min 20 secs.

 

[GMES]

1hr for 1 gang 2 hrs for 2gang

Flip me that rinsin it a bit aint it? I could chop in, put the socket on, test it and on the way home within an hour.

And Pete's 97 years old :smilewinkgrin:

 

[rapparee]

Flip me that rinsin it a bit aint it? I could chop in, put the socket on, test it and on the way home within an hour.

I think there is sarcasm there.

I work in a factory environment where the general operators have timed jobs and have to make so many parts per hour, there were some jobs which were untimed and trusted operators were allowed to work away at their own pace, a new supervisor eager to make a name for himself ordered a time study and for targets to be introduced the result was the operators worked to rule and productivity was actually less on these jobs than the previous untimed output, i think the moral of the story is it'll take as long as needed.

 

[DPG]

I think there is sarcasm there.

I work in a factory environment where the general operators have timed jobs and have to make so many parts per hour, there were some jobs which were untimed and trusted operators were allowed to work away at their own pace, a new supervisor eager to make a name for himself ordered a time study and for targets to be introduced the result was the operators worked to rule and productivity was actually less on these jobs than the previous untimed output, i think the moral of the story is it'll take as long as needed.

Seen this also. Target 100 units per hour, but often a good shift could knock out a few more. Management decide to start timing things and trying to speed things up, so operators stopped when they reached 100 Daz

 

[ayjay]

a very sharp chisel or bolster is needed to actually cut the concrete block
a small angle grinder with one of those thin cutting discs too

 

[7029 dave]

Plenty of guts no time at all, never have used mech aids, that is for -----'s.

 

[Geordie Spark]

I think there is sarcasm there.

I work in a factory environment where the general operators have timed jobs and have to make so many parts per hour, there were some jobs which were untimed and trusted operators were allowed to work away at their own pace, a new supervisor eager to make a name for himself ordered a time study and for targets to be introduced the result was the operators worked to rule and productivity was actually less on these jobs than the previous untimed output, i think the moral of the story is it'll take as long as needed.

The moral of the story is if you go messing good blokes about just to try to make a name for your self then you'll get just that - but it won't be in the Bible.

 

[Pete999]

I think there is sarcasm there.

I work in a factory environment where the general operators have timed jobs and have to make so many parts per hour, there were some jobs which were untimed and trusted operators were allowed to work away at their own pace, a new supervisor eager to make a name for himself ordered a time study and for targets to be introduced the result was the operators worked to rule and productivity was actually less on these jobs than the previous untimed output, i think the moral of the story is it'll take as long as needed.

Yes mate sarcasm was the intention

 

[ian.settle1]

Yes mate sarcasm was the intention

I think he was s referring to the sarcasm of the previous op with 1 and 2 hours respectively.

 

[Pete999]

I think he was s referring to the sarcasm of the previous op with 1 and 2 hours respectively.

Oh well

 

[uksparks]

Just use an sds with comb chisel on the end, I could probably knock a box hole out in a minute then fix the box, but then again, if you are talking of engineering brick you are going to be mounting it in, then add a few more mins on.

 

[stimpy]

Hmmm, anyone got anything actually useful to say based on the actual Original Post regarding book times??

Peppa Pig was funny mind

 

[uksparks]

I accept what you want, but... Why do you actually care? It takes as long as it takes, one wall is quite different to another, then if it's those silly blocks with hollow centres, you then need a tonne of filler of similar to fix it back up.

It's not really something you can put a time to as there's variables and other factors involved. It's not like piece work in a factory where every item is identical.

 

[rapparee]

The moral of the story is if you go messing good blokes about just to try to make a name for your self then you'll get just that - but it won't be in the Bible.

Leviticus 25:43New International Version (NIV)

43*Do not rule over them ruthlessly,*but fear your God.

Theres always something in the bible, after all it is sunday morning

 

[diditrain]

That which is not measured is not managed. I think someone has been on a management course.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

5 mins to make correct size hole for 1g, 8 mins for 2g.
3 mins to get metal back box securely fitted, hole knocked out and rubber grommet in.
Add 5-10 minutes if brick/concrete starts crumbling and its difficult to get rawl plugs in.
Those would be my times (approx)

 

[uksparks]

5 mins to make correct size hole for 1g, 8 mins for 2g.
3 mins to get metal back box securely fitted, hole knocked out and rubber grommet in.
Add 5-10 minutes if brick/concrete starts crumbling and its difficult to get rawl plugs in.
Those would be my times.

tend to agree with this, its a case of do you want it done properly or a bodge...

 

[stimpy]

I accept what you want, but... Why do you actually care? It takes as long as it takes, one wall is quite different to another, then if it's those silly blocks with hollow centres, you then need a tonne of filler of similar to fix it back up.

It's not really something you can put a time to as there's variables and other factors involved. It's not like piece work in a factory where every item is identical.

???

Why do I actually care? Great response!??.. :6:

I care because I'm pricing 2 very large jobs from drawings and rather than using my regular methods of guesstimating through I'm trying out the BOOK method of pricing as these projects are very large for me - there are book times for everything from conduit installs to blokes scratching their arse - this is how all the estimators on large firms price work.

I'll admit I left out its solid concrete block on new build....

 

[stimpy]

5 mins to make correct size hole for 1g, 8 mins for 2g.
3 mins to get metal back box securely fitted, hole knocked out and rubber grommet in.
Add 5-10 minutes if brick/concrete starts crumbling and its difficult to get rawl plugs in.
Those would be my times (approx)

A sensible answer . These are near my times, with walking round site from one spot to another, dragging drill, trannies, leads etc I'd reckoned 15 mins average for the process.

Was just interested in seeing what the actual average book time was...

 

[davesparks]

If it's a large job is the chasing not being done by others?

All of the big sites I have worked on all we had to do was mark up the chases and the 'chasing man' would come along and smash them out.

 

[stimpy]

If it's a large job is the chasing not being done by others?

All of the big sites I have worked on all we had to do was mark up the chases and the 'chasing man' would come along and smash them out.

Yes, it does seem to infer this in the base spec but there's some ambiguity as to its scope so I thought I'd get a figure anyway.

I've also had many times when the " chasing man" has done such a **** job that we end up ****ing around quite a bit doing correctional works!... But it would certainly be fab if the job was done by others!

 

[davesparks]

Then ask for clarification of the base spec!

 

[stimpy]

Then ask for clarification of the base spec!

As I pressed submit I thought to myself " he's gonna say get the spec"!!! Haha..

The developer is a mate and is woolly and busy, he's suggested I allow both scenarios for now....

 

[ipf]

???

Why do I actually care? Great response!??.. :6:

I care because I'm pricing 2 very large jobs from drawings and rather than using my regular methods of guesstimating through I'm trying out the BOOK method of pricing as these projects are very large for me - there are book times for everything from conduit installs to blokes scratching their arse - this is how all the estimators on large firms price work.

I'll admit I left out its solid concrete block on new build....

If you're talking about LARGE firms and LARGE jobs....somehow i don't think they'll be wasting their time counting hundreds of individual sockets and splitting into 1st fix, wiring, 2nd fix, etc....it's average price per socket, full stop.

 

[Pete999]

As I pressed submit I thought to myself " he's gonna say get the spec"!!! Haha..

The developer is a mate and is woolly and busy, he's suggested I allow both scenarios for now....

This Developer seems a bit hit and miss, make sure you dot the Is cross the Ts and check to the enth degree these "mates" will screw you for everything if you ain't careful, bit of a chancer by the sound of it, seen plenty of them as soon as something goes wrong, hes not to blame. I told him this that and the other as long as the ess H one T don't stick to him/her.

 

[7029 dave]

I suppose everything is measurable even chasing out walls, look at your book then, time and motion and all that, depends how good the guys are really doing that work.

 

[londonfire]

I think another question should be how long to chase and drill down behind the skirting, then thread the cables up.
Sounds easy but some times with a joist in the wrong place. Ages!

 

[shanky887614]

I think another question should be how long to chase and drill down behind the skirting, then thread the cables up.
Sounds easy but some times with a joist in the wrong place. Ages!

lift the floor first to check is good advice, seen a few people get stung by that.


coving is a lot worse than skirting

 

[Pete999]

You can't account for the unseen, just add a clause in your quote foe any unseen problems as described in the previous post, but actually its part and partial of any wiring job of this sort, do it as an extra time only.

 

[shanky887614]

You can't account for the unseen, just add a clause in your quote foe any unseen problems as described in the previous post, but actually its part and partial of any wiring job of this sort, do it as an extra time only.

add in your clause, for breeze block walls only, additional charges and time constraints might apply on other surfaces

 

[stimpy]

This Developer seems a bit hit and miss, make sure you dot the Is cross the Ts and check to the enth degree these "mates" will screw you for everything if you ain't careful, bit of a chancer by the sound of it, seen plenty of them as soon as something goes wrong, hes not to blame. I told him this that and the other as long as the ess H one T don't stick to him/her.

It's fine , I've done many projects with him, hundreds of £Ks worth of work over the years. He just cba to find out. Which is fine so long as I specify.

These 2 developments are the largest we've both done hence the basic spec was drawn up by a large firm and tenders have gone out. All previous work have had no tenders, just me and him with open book and agreed percentages. That will not be the case on these.

 

[stimpy]

If you're talking about LARGE firms and LARGE jobs....somehow i don't think they'll be wasting their time counting hundreds of individual sockets and splitting into 1st fix, wiring, 2nd fix, etc....it's average price per socket, full stop.

I don't agree they have to have a schedule works which can only be drawn up by accounting time. Certainly not with these firms. Besides, sockets and switches play a small part in the make up of this job - there's tray, panel boards, ashps , mvhr, pv, controls, specialist wiring, lighting scene controls, full av, data , hd, security, fap, cctv blah blah blah.

 

[stimpy]

I think another question should be how long to chase and drill down behind the skirting, then thread the cables up.
Sounds easy but some times with a joist in the wrong place. Ages!

New build large concrete tensed beams so no concern there.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

5 mins to make correct size hole for 1g, 8 mins for 2g.
3 mins to get metal back box securely fitted, hole knocked out and rubber grommet in.
Add 5-10 minutes if brick/concrete starts crumbling and its difficult to get rawl plugs in.
Those would be my times (approx)

and you can't get the box square to the wall which is why I don't fix them that way in old houses, instead I bed them in with Hardwall or drywall adhesive. Works REALLY well with a bit of corrupted water so it goes off quicker. Hold the cable in place in the chase and gunk over with same mix thus negating the need for clips or capping. It also means that one can quote for the whole gig rather than saying see you when the plaster is done.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

This Developer seems a bit hit and miss, make sure you dot the Is cross the Ts and check to the enth degree these "mates" will screw you for everything if you ain't careful, bit of a chancer by the sound of it, seen plenty of them as soon as something goes wrong, hes not to blame. I told him this that and the other as long as the ess H one T don't stick to him/her.

A really good point there Pete, @ the OP, if you are going to go ahead, make sure your terms and conditions are watertight.

 

[stimpy]

and you can't get the box square to the wall which is why I don't fix them that way in old houses, instead I bed them in with Hardwall or drywall adhesive. Works REALLY well with a bit of corrupted water so it goes off quicker. Hold the cable in place in the chase and gunk over with same mix thus negating the need for clips or capping. It also means that one can quote for the whole gig rather than saying see you when the plaster is done.

Not applicable on these projects.

But have used both with success over the years though I'd always use metal capping. These days I largely send a plasterer in after so we can get on our next jobs.

 

[davesparks]

and you can't get the box square to the wall which is why I don't fix them that way in old houses, instead I bed them in with Hardwall or drywall adhesive. Works REALLY well with a bit of corrupted water so it goes off quicker. Hold the cable in place in the chase and gunk over with same mix thus negating the need for clips or capping. It also means that one can quote for the whole gig rather than saying see you when the plaster is done.

Dave's special recipe:
Bonding coat plaster with a sprinkling of OPC,
Wet the chase first to make it stick
Slap it in quick and half hour later it's gone off hard.

Or for the really speedy jobs substitute rapid setting cement for the OPC!

 

[shanky887614]

Dave's special recipe:
Bonding coat plaster with a sprinkling of OPC,
Wet the chase first to make it stick
Slap it in quick and half hour later it's gone off hard.

Or for the really speedy jobs substitute rapid setting cement for the OPC!

just throw a bit of bonding in, leave a couple mm for finish coat

 

[davesparks]

Takes too long to set, I don't want to wait around for ages before I can do anything with the box!

 

[i=p/u]

yh you could well be but what if you blew the main fuse with your dodgy lead or cut a cable or waterpipe,lol

i like the answer it takes as long as it takes.............. just my opinion and what i say

Flip me that rinsin it a bit aint it? I could chop in, put the socket on, test it and on the way home within an hour.

 

[uksparks]

Buy the time he has been on here and wasted half his Electrical Trainee life away thinking about it, he could have knocked a load of them out and be getting on with it nicely, or did they show him how to do that?

 

[edexlab]

Bit of info missed here I think ....

New builds are generally dot and dabbled...

How deep are the boxes to chase in and are the walls dot and dabbed?

ie you might be be fitting 35 mm boxes or more and only have to chase in 10/20mm allowing roughly 25mm for boarding
I'm guessing the answers here are along the thinking that its most likely 35mm knocked flush.