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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
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Dithering, incoherent, sh*t hair?
I don't think you are a Tory supporter.
Here we go again.
Unusual for a cop. And I don't mean a red nose.
Politicians are all economical with the truth, its part of the nature of the business. Same as bosses can never be honest and speak their mind.
I recall one being honest with me once, talking to me about resourcing levels at peak times. 'Its called risk management; I manage things, you take the risk'. Arse.
Did they? You have proof that they ignored it I assume?
How long does all this equipment last in storage, and how much should they spend on equipment, maintainence and storage for the 'just in case supplies'
They could have filled a warehouse with ventilators and oxygen concentrators after that 2016 report and now when they pull them out of storage 4 years later half of them don't work because they've been sat idle for so long.
I've googled it and found a lot of media articles about it, which are hardly reliable sources of information.
Other information that I've found indicate that it is just a small part of a much wider plan intended to see the NHS through all manner of possible emergencies, including strikes, far worse viruses than this, major accidents, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, fuel shortages and other things.
When I find proper reports on exercise cygnus I'll read up on it further of course.
P29 is where you want to be looking:
Bottom of 29,top of 30 seem to suggest to me that it's not a lack of PPE but a lack of knowledge of the supply chain or how to get the PPE from national stockpiles.
When you say 'media articles' you mean just about every paper out there, including the Tory supporting Sun, Mail, Telegraph and others. Maybe they are not normally the most reliable source generally, and I'm like you I need to check and check before I believe things, especially if it comes from a politician. But unless you are at every cabinet meeting or read every government document then you do have to trust some sources eventually.
They've had over 3 years and have failed to do this.
I don't know if it is there or not, I know that there is a shortage in some places, I don't know where or how widespread the shortage is.
Do we all know what is going to happen? I certainly don't as I cannot see the future, I know what is likely to happen.
A knee jerk reaction trying to force the current lockdown situation a few eeks ago would have been far less effective, after the build up to this many people are still flouting the regulations, looking for loopholes and ways to dodge the rules.
You have to consider the psychology of the general public and what needs to happen for the government to manipulate people into staying at home when they are needed to. A total lockdown out of the blue will be rejected by a lot of people and there simply aren't enough police to enforce it.
They need to build the fear and bring it in gradually otherwise it will not have the desired effect.
I don't know enough about the situation with ventilators, they announced that they were asking industry to produce more a couple of weeks ago, how long before that had they actually started the process? Did they hold back the information from the public to reduce fear and panic.
As far as I know our laboratories created one of the first testing kits back in January, it's pretty hard to stockpile something before it has been invented. The genome of the virus was only published in January, they couldn't do much work on it before that.
What medecine do you suggest they should have stockpiled in January? What medecine did they stockpile?
The studies into the effectiveness of things like hydroxychloroquine aren't complete yet, theyre pushing them through quickly, but studies need to be completed properly.
I believe vaccines were developed within hours of the genome being published but full testing won't be complete for many months yet, they might be done by the end of the year. Testing can't be rushed,
Well 6 patients given hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin recovered quickly in a study of 30 patients in China which I think was published sometime in February.
Maybe we should have stockpiled that in January?
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Post number 34, last sentence.
Post 34 clearly states it.
I know it wasn't you. Dave had replied to PMouth's post.
OK, so what PPE did they need to stockpile, for a virus they didn't know was coming or what type of infection it would cause?
A couple of months ago headlines about millions of pounds worth of medical face masks reaching the end of their use by date sitting in a warehouse gathering dust would have met with uproar.
How much would 10,000 ventilators in a warehouse having to be tested and maintained for years on end cost?
If the government just stockpiled every piece of lifesaving equipment that might be needed then how much money would it cost? How much would be left in the pot to pay everybody's 80% wages?
How much extra tax would you be happy to pay to fill warehouses with medical equipment that might, or might not, be needed?
You know far more than all the hundreds of experts that have been brought in over the years to reform an organisation that is so vast and so seeped in it's own culture that it's un-reformable. An organisation that has been put on a pedestal and worshipped by every single politician for the last 30 years... and that pedestal just gets higher and higher...
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Do you really think this governments response has been adequate?
Indeed once they knew about the virus they would have started preparing for it, but there is only so much equipment they could source between January and now. Every country would have been doing the same and there will only have been a finite number of units available.
Add to this the fact that it probably all relies on some components which are made in China, which unfortunately was on lockdown.
Is it a lack of PPE or a lack of logistics?
It is impossible for us to know what is going on behind the scenes, but I think the government response so far has been pretty good.
They managed to stockpile enough money to keep the vast majority of the country going whilst a lot of people are not at work.
They had new, broad reaching and complex legislation before parliament so quickly that it must have been thought about and drafted/templated long before this virus was identified.
All Pretty Mouth is doing is pointing out some obvious facts and asking reasonable questions. Just because it doesn't fit your blind narrative and you do not seem to be able to put together a coherent response, that others on here that I also disagree with can do, you post this garbage.
The response has been calm, collected, well organised, taken in to account the best scientific advice we have, not over the top.
No it hasn't been perfect, but it could have been a hell of a lot worse.
Discuss Boris Has It ... in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net
- Reaction score
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We will fight them in the streets, we will fight them in the shops, we will never surrender over veg, bog roll, lol.what his symptoms.
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Symptoms include
Dithering, incoherent, sh*t hair?
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that's corbyn .
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He will never be a churchhill dog,oh yes.
Some how they must have had a testing kit for him. to see if he is still alive.
Some how they must have had a testing kit for him. to see if he is still alive.
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who's matt hancock?
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The Health secretary
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keep up at the back.
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I think we need a face to face meeting with boris and trump.
You can thank us later
You can thank us later
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Well i for one will wish boris johnson all the best and a speedy recovery so he can continue the good work hes been doing for the uk so far!!
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Whilst it is not good that he has caught it, I think it will help the public to understand that this is a real threat and it can affect everybody.
It will also be good to see him isolating, delivering speeches by video call etc.
He and his government have done very well so far in their handling of this situation, taking good heed of their scientific advisors and trying to drive the message home to the public about what needs to be done to help everyone.
It will also be good to see him isolating, delivering speeches by video call etc.
He and his government have done very well so far in their handling of this situation, taking good heed of their scientific advisors and trying to drive the message home to the public about what needs to be done to help everyone.
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The one that lies even more than the Prime Minister
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The one that lies even more than the Prime Minister
I don't think you are a Tory supporter.
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The one that lies even more than the Prime Minister
Here we go again.
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Unusual for a cop. And I don't mean a red nose.
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Have voted Tory in the past. Never voted labour. Just don’t like being taken for a fool and blatantly lied to by people who are supposedly in public service when others would be sent to prison for doing the same! People are out there ... front line NHS, putting their lives on the line in this crisis with woeful PPE resourcing. Boris may be doing the best he can in the circs and lets hope he is. When the time comes it will be interesting to see if lessons are learned as this will happen again. Funny how you all assume I’m a lilly livered lefty! I’ve spent 30 years locking up (if I’m lucky) lying scumbags! I don’t like hypocritical self interested lying scumbags! I’ll leave the politics now as we have a more serious issue to get through. Take care all.
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I got to disagree there with the “woeful PPE resourcing”
They’ve been run off their feet, using more PPE than is normal and the suppliers have run out.
There just isn’t the manufacturing in place to keep up with demand.
It’s an international problem.
They’ve been run off their feet, using more PPE than is normal and the suppliers have run out.
There just isn’t the manufacturing in place to keep up with demand.
It’s an international problem.
- Reaction score
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Have voted Tory in the past. Never voted labour. Just don’t like being taken for a fool and blatantly lied to by people who are supposedly in public service when others would be sent to prison for doing the same! People are out there ... front line NHS, putting their lives on the line in this crisis with woeful PPE resourcing. Boris may be doing the best he can in the circs and lets hope he is. When the time comes it will be interesting to see if lessons are learned as this will happen again. Funny how you all assume I’m a lilly livered lefty! I’ve spent 30 years locking up (if I’m lucky) lying scumbags! I don’t like hypocritical self interested lying scumbags! I’ll leave the politics now as we have a more serious issue to get through. Take care all.
Politicians are all economical with the truth, its part of the nature of the business. Same as bosses can never be honest and speak their mind.
I recall one being honest with me once, talking to me about resourcing levels at peak times. 'Its called risk management; I manage things, you take the risk'. Arse.
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I think you’ll find that the government ignored a 2016 report that stated in such scenarios we would be short of PPE and ventilators. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing and I suppose politics is all about gambling that it won’t happen on our watch!
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Did they? You have proof that they ignored it I assume?
How long does all this equipment last in storage, and how much should they spend on equipment, maintainence and storage for the 'just in case supplies'
They could have filled a warehouse with ventilators and oxygen concentrators after that 2016 report and now when they pull them out of storage 4 years later half of them don't work because they've been sat idle for so long.
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Google "Exercise Cygnus", you should find plenty of information and lead you to your own conclusion as to whether our leaders ignored it. I believe ventilators were not even considered in the report.
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I've googled it and found a lot of media articles about it, which are hardly reliable sources of information.
Other information that I've found indicate that it is just a small part of a much wider plan intended to see the NHS through all manner of possible emergencies, including strikes, far worse viruses than this, major accidents, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, fuel shortages and other things.
When I find proper reports on exercise cygnus I'll read up on it further of course.
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if they were made by Dyson, they,d be broke 3 days after the 12 months warranty expired anyway.
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Finding official reports seems to be difficult, but here is something that may fit the bill:
P29 is where you want to be looking:
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Bottom of 29,top of 30 seem to suggest to me that it's not a lack of PPE but a lack of knowledge of the supply chain or how to get the PPE from national stockpiles.
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Well, the PPE isn't there is it. Switch on the news, you'll soon see yet another healthcare professional testifying to that fact.
It's difficult for me to see the government's response to this in a positive light. We all watched the pandemic grow in China, and their people started dropping like flies, and it spread beyond Chinas borders to other nations where their people started dropping like flies, and then it arrived here, and it spread and we all know what is going to happen. It didn't happen overnight. Any simpleton could have predicted this.
Why did our leaders wait until the pandemic had already taken hold here before taking action? Why did they wait until just 2 weeks ago to request industry start thinking about building ventilators, knowing full well how unprepared the NHS is for this. Why have they ordered 10000 ventilators from a company that doesn't build ventilators, when there are companies that do, and are all ready to do so? Why did they miss the deadline for the EU procurement scheme, blaming it on a communications mix up? Why weren't they stockpiling medicine, PPE, and testing kits back in January?
It's difficult for me to see the government's response to this in a positive light. We all watched the pandemic grow in China, and their people started dropping like flies, and it spread beyond Chinas borders to other nations where their people started dropping like flies, and then it arrived here, and it spread and we all know what is going to happen. It didn't happen overnight. Any simpleton could have predicted this.
Why did our leaders wait until the pandemic had already taken hold here before taking action? Why did they wait until just 2 weeks ago to request industry start thinking about building ventilators, knowing full well how unprepared the NHS is for this. Why have they ordered 10000 ventilators from a company that doesn't build ventilators, when there are companies that do, and are all ready to do so? Why did they miss the deadline for the EU procurement scheme, blaming it on a communications mix up? Why weren't they stockpiling medicine, PPE, and testing kits back in January?
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When you say 'media articles' you mean just about every paper out there, including the Tory supporting Sun, Mail, Telegraph and others. Maybe they are not normally the most reliable source generally, and I'm like you I need to check and check before I believe things, especially if it comes from a politician. But unless you are at every cabinet meeting or read every government document then you do have to trust some sources eventually.
That's just a summary for Rotherham, but you're right, bottom of page 29
They've had over 3 years and have failed to do this.
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I don't know if it is there or not, I know that there is a shortage in some places, I don't know where or how widespread the shortage is.
Do we all know what is going to happen? I certainly don't as I cannot see the future, I know what is likely to happen.
A knee jerk reaction trying to force the current lockdown situation a few eeks ago would have been far less effective, after the build up to this many people are still flouting the regulations, looking for loopholes and ways to dodge the rules.
You have to consider the psychology of the general public and what needs to happen for the government to manipulate people into staying at home when they are needed to. A total lockdown out of the blue will be rejected by a lot of people and there simply aren't enough police to enforce it.
They need to build the fear and bring it in gradually otherwise it will not have the desired effect.
I don't know enough about the situation with ventilators, they announced that they were asking industry to produce more a couple of weeks ago, how long before that had they actually started the process? Did they hold back the information from the public to reduce fear and panic.
As far as I know our laboratories created one of the first testing kits back in January, it's pretty hard to stockpile something before it has been invented. The genome of the virus was only published in January, they couldn't do much work on it before that.
What medecine do you suggest they should have stockpiled in January? What medecine did they stockpile?
The studies into the effectiveness of things like hydroxychloroquine aren't complete yet, theyre pushing them through quickly, but studies need to be completed properly.
I believe vaccines were developed within hours of the genome being published but full testing won't be complete for many months yet, they might be done by the end of the year. Testing can't be rushed,
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Well 6 patients given hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin recovered quickly in a study of 30 patients in China which I think was published sometime in February.
Maybe we should have stockpiled that in January?
[automerge]1585516055[/automerge]
Post number 34, last sentence.
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Post 34 clearly states it.
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I know it wasn't you. Dave had replied to PMouth's post.
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Signing up with the E.U for ventilators would have been pointless.
Guess who would have been at the end of the list for delivery and we'd probably have had to pay up front.
3 years ago or even 1 year ago no one would have known what the infection was going to be and what the appropriate PPE would be for it.
Same with the ventilators, we could have had 10000 in storage when what we actually needed was 10000 kidney dialasis machines.
There are no medicines associated with Covid 19 recovery to have been able to stockpile.
The statement today was that delivery of the following list of PPE has almost been completed to 58000 locations around the U.K including Care homes;
170 million masks, 42.8 million gloves, 13.7 million aprons, 182,000 gowns, almost 10 million items of cleaning equipment and 2.3 million pairs of eye protective equipment.
And presumably deliveries will continue, to top up what's used.
Guess who would have been at the end of the list for delivery and we'd probably have had to pay up front.
3 years ago or even 1 year ago no one would have known what the infection was going to be and what the appropriate PPE would be for it.
Same with the ventilators, we could have had 10000 in storage when what we actually needed was 10000 kidney dialasis machines.
There are no medicines associated with Covid 19 recovery to have been able to stockpile.
The statement today was that delivery of the following list of PPE has almost been completed to 58000 locations around the U.K including Care homes;
170 million masks, 42.8 million gloves, 13.7 million aprons, 182,000 gowns, almost 10 million items of cleaning equipment and 2.3 million pairs of eye protective equipment.
And presumably deliveries will continue, to top up what's used.
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OK, so what PPE did they need to stockpile, for a virus they didn't know was coming or what type of infection it would cause?
A couple of months ago headlines about millions of pounds worth of medical face masks reaching the end of their use by date sitting in a warehouse gathering dust would have met with uproar.
How much would 10,000 ventilators in a warehouse having to be tested and maintained for years on end cost?
If the government just stockpiled every piece of lifesaving equipment that might be needed then how much money would it cost? How much would be left in the pot to pay everybody's 80% wages?
How much extra tax would you be happy to pay to fill warehouses with medical equipment that might, or might not, be needed?
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You're right guys, you've got me there. There is no medicine certified for use against the coronavirus. I was thinking of medicines to treat secondary infections, but I don't really know enough about it to comment. Apologies, and above all else, you are correct.
My post did not say the government needed to stockpile every piece of equipment for every eventuality indefinitely. It said they could see what was coming from January, having watched it all unfold in China, and have had chance to act much sooner.
There is not enough PPE to go round. What is there has been diverted to the NHS, and care homes, nursing homes etc are missing out. Turn on BBC news 24 and sooner or later you will see this.
Also:
www.telegraph.co.uk
www.independent.co.uk
www.theguardian.com
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PPE! Gloves, masks, hand sanitiser! Generic medical stuff
My post did not say the government needed to stockpile every piece of equipment for every eventuality indefinitely. It said they could see what was coming from January, having watched it all unfold in China, and have had chance to act much sooner.
There is not enough PPE to go round. What is there has been diverted to the NHS, and care homes, nursing homes etc are missing out. Turn on BBC news 24 and sooner or later you will see this.
Also:
Coronavirus: Minister admits PPE 'challenges and problems'
A doctor claims GPs are buying personal protective equipment as a minister admits "problems".
www.bbc.co.uk
NHS asks DIY stores to donate protective equipment to staff on the coronavirus frontline
Fears that doctors and nurses are being left exposed to infection while treating patients
www.telegraph.co.uk
Tories rejected advice to give protective equipment to all frontline NHS staff, memo reveals
Labour says 2017 decision – made when Jeremy Hunt was health secretary – leaves ‘serious questions’ for ministers to answer
www.independent.co.uk
NHS staff feel like 'cannon fodder' over lack of coronavirus protection
Frontline staff in plea for PPE as some improvise by tying plastic aprons around their head
PPE! Gloves, masks, hand sanitiser! Generic medical stuff
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Wow... you're a genius !! If only you were running the NHS we wouldn't have any problems at all...
You know far more than all the hundreds of experts that have been brought in over the years to reform an organisation that is so vast and so seeped in it's own culture that it's un-reformable. An organisation that has been put on a pedestal and worshipped by every single politician for the last 30 years... and that pedestal just gets higher and higher...
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Are you serious?
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Do you really think this governments response has been adequate?
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Indeed once they knew about the virus they would have started preparing for it, but there is only so much equipment they could source between January and now. Every country would have been doing the same and there will only have been a finite number of units available.
Add to this the fact that it probably all relies on some components which are made in China, which unfortunately was on lockdown.
Is it a lack of PPE or a lack of logistics?
It is impossible for us to know what is going on behind the scenes, but I think the government response so far has been pretty good.
They managed to stockpile enough money to keep the vast majority of the country going whilst a lot of people are not at work.
They had new, broad reaching and complex legislation before parliament so quickly that it must have been thought about and drafted/templated long before this virus was identified.
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This is rubbish and abusive.
All Pretty Mouth is doing is pointing out some obvious facts and asking reasonable questions. Just because it doesn't fit your blind narrative and you do not seem to be able to put together a coherent response, that others on here that I also disagree with can do, you post this garbage.
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The response has been calm, collected, well organised, taken in to account the best scientific advice we have, not over the top.
No it hasn't been perfect, but it could have been a hell of a lot worse.
Reply to Boris Has It ... in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net
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