can anyone simplify what the deskilling of the industry means?

[codger]

The trade is still worth getting into, definitely. I would encourage any young person interested in a technical career to pursue an apprenticeship in an electrical discipline. That apprenticeship can, and will, open doors for them in later life far better than going down any university/academic route. It has to be a recognised apprenticeship though. None of the diluted "Be a sparky in 6 weeks!" courses you see advertised. The apprenticeship route, for me, epitomises what getting a recognised trade should be all about.....learning the theory / practical skills at a good college, then enhancing that knowledge / skills base with hands on training onsite.....preferably through gaining good, knowledgeable training in a variety of environments, using a variety of systems.

 

[Engineer54]

The trade is still worth getting into, definitely. I would encourage any young person interested in a technical career to pursue an apprenticeship in an electrical discipline. That apprenticeship can, and will, open doors for them in later life far better than going down any university/academic route. It has to be a recognised apprenticeship though. None of the diluted "Be a sparky in 6 weeks!" courses you see advertised. The apprenticeship route, for me, epitomises what getting a recognised trade should be all about.....learning the theory / practical skills at a good college, then enhancing that knowledge / skills base with hands on training onsite.....preferably through gaining good, knowledgeable training in a variety of environments, using a variety of systems.

Since when has an electrical indentured apprenticeship, opened more doors than a university based electrical degree?? I happen to have both, and i know full well what opened the right doors for me!!

I do know what your talking about though, your just using the wrong criteria for your argument, and on that score i wholeheartedly agree with you, even if it is going to be difficult to find, such an indentured apprenticeship these day's . lol!!

 

[oldtimer]

The thing is in the 70s and the 80s it was not cool to be good at what you do and people lost respect with getting a good job done plus the current workplace is not exactly a bed of roses instead of people saying he did a good job now I will see if I can better turned into trying to undermine people to their level because they could not be ar$ed I worked with a guy who was getting dogs abuse me and another lad who I highly respect took him under our wing(s) and helped him out within months he was kissing the managers you know what and because the state of management in this country is more to do with patronising an ego rather than doing a good job and getting the respect for it he was anioted a favoured son well no sooner it happened he started talking down to me and this other lad. Now thats what is wrong with the whole trade I keep banging on about standards and people think I am an old foaggy

 

[imago]

The thing is in the 70s and the 80s it was not cool to be good at what you do and people lost respect with getting a good job done

About the same time as an apprenticeship became a YOP or YTS. Instead of youngsters getting good training at a college, and valuable experience from time served people, they became cheap labour. If they were in the scheme for a couple of years they became cheap semi-skilled labour.

That cheap semi-skilled labour was then set to working on parts of jobs, those parts would have been done collectively by a skilled tradesman but at a higher cost (and standard). Sound familiar?

The de-skilling across the engineering/trade sector began over thirty years ago. A lot of the skilled tradesmen weren't bothered though, they just took their 30 pieces of silver (redundancy) and walked. YOP and YTS morphed into other schemes and the old apprenticeships were finished never to return. What were the unions up to during the hour of their greatest need? They were too busy trying to create their own little empires and argueing about the number and duration of tea breaks to see that their membership was being systematically removed from under them.

For thirty odd years in Britain the trades have sleep walked right into this situation. A few lone voices predicted the outcome, but they were mostly ignored. So UK trades are reaping what was sown a generation ago.

I served a five year multi discipline apprenticeship. I'm now studying the same stuff as 'five week wonders' 'five day wonders' and kids serving three year 'apprenticeships'. Why am I doing that? So that I can bring myself 'up' to their level. So that I can offer qualifications which are recognised by those running/operating schemes who weren't born when I gained my 'other' qualifications.

The situation only bothers me when the hand-wringing starts, and unions start calling for us to stand together and fight the changes. Too late chaps, where were you 35 years ago when there was a chance to stop it? I'm one of those left out in the cold over those 35 years. The thing is I learned to cope without Union support and I'm doing nicely now thanks. The Unions haven't leaned to cope, and now you want my support. Well you're not getting it, but don't worry, when you're left high and dry you can adapt and overcome. Good luck with it.

 

[imago]

My apologies sparkyezz, I was so busy with my 'maoning old git' routine I didn't answer your original question.

If it's what you want to do, then absolutely get into this or any other trade. It'll be a great journey and take you to places both geographically and metaphorically that you never thought it would.

 

[alarm man]

The thing is in the 70s and the 80s it was not cool to be good at what you do and people lost respect with getting a good job done plus the current workplace is not exactly a bed of roses instead of people saying he did a good job now I will see if I can better turned into trying to undermine people to their level because they could not be ar$ed I worked with a guy who was getting dogs abuse me and another lad who I highly respect took him under our wing(s) and helped him out within months he was kissing the managers you know what and because the state of management in this country is more to do with patronising an ego rather than doing a good job and getting the respect for it he was anioted a favoured son well no sooner it happened he started talking down to me and this other lad. Now thats what is wrong with the whole trade I keep banging on about standards and people think I am an old foaggy

i cant understand any tradesman not wanting to do a good job every time,its your pride,your skills its you,you can have my wife and drink my beer,but call my workmanship then i'll get angry..

 

[oldtimer]

i cant understand any tradesman not wanting to do a good job every time,its your pride,your skills its you,you can have my wife and drink my beer,but call my workmanship then i'll get angry..

Alarm man welcome to the real world when I chucked my job the manager of the elctrical contractor shook my hand and said now I will have to deal with the idiots who will try to manage me without knowing what they are doing but then again I have got 2 years to go so good ridance and that seems to sum the whole thing have it not about changing it to get a better standard if you are running it , it is about getting rid of the old ways funny thing is they call it progress and every 10 years they will try and roll out another way but everyone will be too scared to say this is not right I did and paid a heavy price but walked away with my self respect even although some of the clowns around me were "Laffing" me out the door and I have regreted it Hell no

 

[ruston]

We are all preaching to the converted on here though , it is why the majority of you are on here. It is because you have respect and pride in your work. ( honest guv I'm not a crawler).

 

[alarm man]

Alarm man welcome to the real world when I chucked my job the manager of the elctrical contractor shook my hand and said now I will have to deal with the idiots who will try to manage me without knowing what they are doing but then again I have got 2 years to go so good ridance and that seems to sum the whole thing have it not about changing it to get a better standard if you are running it , it is about getting rid of the old ways funny thing is they call it progress and every 10 years they will try and roll out another way but everyone will be too scared to say this is not right I did and paid a heavy price but walked away with my self respect even although some of the clowns around me were "Laffing" me out the door and I have regreted it Hell no

im certainly in the real world,my job/site my work my standards,yes sometimes they go over but it saves a lot of work in the future,do it right do it once,the gaffers can moan,but when the customer moans about the install/service then its personal

 

[imago]

We are all preaching to the converted on here though , it is why the majority of you are on here. It is because you have respect and pride in your work. ( honest guv I'm not a crawler).

Their presence on here and places like it are why people shouldn't be so quick to lump all the "five week wonders" into one category. Some genuinely want to learn a trade as opposed to finding a quick route into earning a few quid. It's not their fault that there are limited ways to do that. The training providers can give an unrealistic picture, which means it's down to those that care (like the majority on this forum seem to do) to help them along the way with some real world experience, opinions and pointing out the down side.

 

[ruston]

Their presence on here and places like it are why people shouldn't be so quick to lump all the "five week wonders" into one category. Some genuinely want to learn a trade as opposed to finding a quick route into earning a few quid. It's not their fault that there are limited ways to do that. The training providers can give an unrealistic picture, which means it's down to those that care (like the majority on this forum seem to do) to help them along the way with some real world experience, opinions and pointing out the down side.

I fully agree with you , and as I have said on previous posts Peers are usually the first ones to lend helping hands . I have seen it and done it many times.
On the 2391 course I was on for instance experienced sparks gave up their own time to help some of the lads who had come onto the course, depending on it , as they thought to get registered for part P. It' s the expectations that is promised to them that is faulted.

 

[Arnold Layne]

ruston,

You are absolutely right about this, it is the expectations that are created by the course providers that are at fault, not the students who attend the courses. And of course the training providers are only trying to sell their courses, but the claims that they make 1. You will be a qualified spark 2. You will be able to get work easily, are inaccurate at best and false in the worst case.

 

[gareth jones]

definition of deskilling: (not Des killing!) two eastern europeans on my 2330 course, failed everything, but keep on sitting re-tests, it's multi-choice so eventually they'll pass and be 'fully qualified electricians' with the same qualification as me, horah mind you I can speak English, they can't as they've only been living here for 12 years!

 

[Welchyboy]

definition of deskilling: (not Des killing!) two eastern europeans on my 2330 course, failed everything, but keep on sitting re-tests, it's multi-choice so eventually they'll pass and be 'fully qualified electricians' with the same qualification as me, horah mind you I can speak English, they can't as they've only been living here for 12 years!

Thats why the jib system should be mandatory, no-one is a 'Fully qualified Electrician' after passing the 2330 on its own, a monkey could do it!

its just part of it

 

[Engineer54]

Bring back the old full scope A, B, C, 2360 tag on a 2391 and make that the minimum standard of anyone calling themselves an electrician.... lol!!

 

[vaughant]

Again agreeing with E54 that getting your basic apprenticeship then moving onto a degree opens up a myriad of opportunities that you simply won't even get a look in on otherwise.
Im overloaded with vocational quals and I have masses of work experience but I know to progress within my industry the next step is to go back to "school" in my free time and get more formal qualifications.
Im starting offshore a week today so hopefully after my probation I can get some time to do this.
As for getting into the industry I'd say absolutely yes but be aware that the new market that IMO is going to explode is the renewables sector,try and get an apprenticeship in that as that's gonna be around forever.
Same as any job,often you see the ones who go the furthest are the ones who make the most sacrifices,if that means moving away from home,missing a few football games,a few weekends with your mates etc then that's what it takes.
Its a great career but if your only goal in life is to pull a few cables 3 miles from your house,to to the same pub every night and expect to get paid £50000+ a year for it then don't bother.
its up to you how far to take your career.