Connecting a shaver point to a shower circuit.

[ChrisElectrical88]

Hi. I want to install a shaver point in a bathroom for a fussy landlord, but she only wants it to be used when the shower is on, not sure why. I am going to wire it off the shower circuit and cut down the cores so I can fit them all in 15A connector blocks in the loft. Is this ok? If not what regulation prevents thing?

 

[mechelec]

I'm all for taking the p**s but let's have some proper electrical input.but electrical input comes from supplier, and that's outside the scope of the beano ( sorry BS7671)

Great reply.

 

[mechelec]

Ok let's make this really really simple.

If you carried out a domestic EICR and came across a fan spurred from a shower circuit and fused as per the previous post what code would you give it and why ?????

 

[telectrix]

i'd give it a C3. as " improvement recommended IMO". that's not to say that it contravenes a specific reg. just that i'd like it improved.

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Mechelec, thats a bit unfair.....I put forward quite a strong reason not to proceed with an extract fan connected to the shower.
These fans usually require a 3amp fuse (manufactures instructions) and in this instance the OP had suggested 2No FCU ie a fuse on the live and a separate fuse on the switched lived. This would effectively create 2 new circuits sharing the same neutral and as such is non compliant with BS7671...borrowed neutral

 

[telectrix]

how is it a shred neutral when the fan sub-circuit is now part of the shower circuit? remember that a circuit starts at the point of origin. in this case the MCB in the CU.

 

[mechelec]

Mechelec, thats a bit unfair.....I put forward quite a strong reason not to proceed with an extract fan connected to the shower.
These fans usually require a 3amp fuse (manufactures instructions) and in this instance the OP had suggested 2No FCU ie a fuse on the live and a separate fuse on the switched lived. This would effectively create 2 new circuits sharing the same neutral and as such is non compliant with BS7671...borrowed neutral

Sorry zebra you are right that would be a poor idea but my suggestion was for no run on timer fan only on when isolator is on.
see telectrix good answer above.

One reason could be not complying with the building regs on a new build.

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Circuit definition is 'an assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s) therefore IMO the 3amp fuses are the same as two diffent MCBs in a DB sharing the same neutral....borrowed neutral...the origin for the fan is now the 2No FCUs

 

[mechelec]

Circuit definition is 'an assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s) therefore IMO the 3amp fuses are the same as two diffent MCBs in a DB sharing the same neutral....borrowed neutral...the origin for the fan is now the 2No FCUs

The supply would be to a fan wired in 4 core flex more than likely. Would you really be disconnecting any core of the flex without carrying out safe islolation ?

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Probably not, but it still would not comply and anyway it only bites when disconnected..sorry the neutral that is...it could also be a blown fuse etc.but not a good design.

 

[mechelec]

i'd give it a C3. as " improvement recommended IMO". that's not to say that it contravenes a specific reg. just that i'd like it improved.

OK but an EICR should be objective not subjective. Care to put some meat on the bones.

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Hey Mech.......use a smiley:smilewinkgrin: It encourages friendly debate

 

[mechelec]

Sorry I Can't insert smileys on my generic tablet but believe me I am smiling.

i have been trying to encourage friendly debate and this subject seems to have rattled a few people.

Still waiting for a good reason though lol

 

[MDJ]

Thats the problem not one reply gave a sound answer why it should not be done.
-------------------------------------------------

 

[mechelec]

Love it, toys out of the pram. Time for a sit on the naughty step I think.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Sorry I Can't insert smileys on my generic tablet but believe me I am smiling.

i have been trying to encourage friendly debate and this subject seems to have rattled a few people.

Still waiting for a good reason though lol

The problem here is what people consider 'bad practice'...

There is no 'bad practice' guide or 'good practice' regulation book so examples of 'bad practise' are based on one's:

Personal experience/opinions.
Something one has heard from a mentor that one respects (often in training/apprenticeship).
Interpretation of a regulation (admittedly not always entirely accurate).

There may be (technically) nothing wrong with what you propose, it just may be 'against the grain' in the opinion of many on this forum.

Bear in mind though - many on this forum (I will not mention names for the fear of swelling heads) are experienced and their view has merit, so when someone says, eg, fit a PIR to control your fan, take it as good advice!

 

[mechelec]

That is what I am challenging hawkmoon, blindly doing what has always been done and hopefully I have thrown some ideas in to weadle out the ones who have an understanding of electrical engineering and principles and those who don't and just do what everyone else does with no understanding why. The reaction of some says a hell of a lot.

Would the pir supply be taken from the shower circuit ? Lol

Thank you for your sensible reply it is much appreciated.

 

[mechelec]

Oh and for the record section 5 and 314 do not preclude the design either MDJ.

Please feel free to check it out. Maybe you could ask on a forum.

This is only leaves blindly following what has been done before.

It is funny when you look into something and push a bit, big holes start to appear in some once respected members knowledge. Spitting their dummies out only helps others to see it.

 

[guest119]

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Wake me up when it's over.

Boydy

 

[MDJ]

..........................

 

[Zebra Stripe]

I find this really odd that people are taking this personally. I think Mechelec is only asking to debate the technicalities not insinuate that this should be standard practice. Whats wrong with debate? Its how you learn new things

 

[KAS1]

I'd like to wire an outside light off my shower circuit is there a reg stating that I can't, if so which one, or is there a reg stating that I can lol please help .........

 

[mechelec]

..........................

Your most articulate reply yet well done.

What do you have to do to get a ban on here. Personnal attacks clearly don't matter from some. Maybe it is relative to post quantity not quality.

 

[tirfor]

Just seen this, you guys taking the mick out of me again.

On the point of just using a showers power supply to supply another circuit, I don’t think anybody has a definitive answer on why it cant be done.

And before you start taking the p**** I don’t mean another circuit like a socket for a garage or a shaver socket.:laugh3:

If its all done correctly it could probably be done safely, I just think as its not the norm and some people may not do it properly that it should be avoided if possible.

I would still love to get an answer though:8:

Debate is good, its how we better yourself:mellow:

 

[mechelec]

I'd like to wire an outside light off my shower circuit is there a reg stating that I can't, if so which one, or is there a reg stating that I can lol please help .........

Always pleased to help.

I think you will find reg 314.1.i will preclude your design as in the event of a fault in the shower you would lose the outside light thus causing a hazard and inconvenience.

Please feel free to ask any more questions you do not know the answer to we all have to start somewhere and these 5 week courses only touch the surface don't they.

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Clever way to stifle debate and close any exchange of ideas kas1. Hey Im not taking any sides here, but whats wrong debating makes you look in regs whether you think its a silly idea or not.

 

[KAS1]

Always pleased to help.

I think you will find reg 314.1.i will preclude your design as in the event of a fault in the shower you would lose the outside light thus causing a hazard and inconvenience.

Please feel free to ask any more questions you do not know the answer to we all have to start somewhere and these 5 week courses only touch the surface don't they.

Many thanks, can I also wire a bathroom fan from the shower?

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Or even a shaver point?

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Or my pond pump?

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Some people really are stupid IMO

 

[KAS1]

If a customer decided to ask me to uninstall a shower is there anything in the regs preventing me from pulling the 10mm cable up into the loft and terminating it into a massive JB and spurring (like a star figure in T&E 2.5mm ) say a dozen or more 13amp skts from it and say replacing the MCB with a 20amp device proving the Zs readings are all within the limits (no insulation and clipped direct) ?????? please advise as it could save a lot of money for me

 

[KAS1]

Please help Mechelec

 

[tirfor]

Come on nobody would think of connecting a pond pump to the shower. That's silly, but a shower to the fan, maybe as it is equipment being used which is suited to a particular room.:thinking:

 

[KAS1]

Come on nobody would think of connecting a pond pump to the shower. That's silly, but a shower to the fan, maybe as it is equipment being used which is suited to a particular room.:thinking:

What about mood lighting?