cooker switch above hob

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Discuss cooker switch above hob in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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dawsirn

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I went to look at a job last night where the customer wanted advice about fitting a new hob.

She'd already ordered one from john lewis but when they arrived to fit it they refused as the cooker switch was directly above the hob (bottom of the switch 600m above). Said they couldn't because of "new regulations".

Obviously i would never fit a switch above a hob on a new install but as this is an existing install would it be acceptable to fit the hob anyway. Ideally the switch should be moved..but to do that I'd have to take off about 3 tiles (no replacements), a wall unit to (to access the cable run) and I'd have to extend x1 10mm t&e cable (supply) and x2 6mm t&e cables (loads)

I guess the other option is to do away with the switch join the cables and fit a blank but can't really say this is improving matters.

She's had the appliances refunded but wanted to know if I could fit the hob. gut feeling is no but not sure what others would do.

Cheers
 
In years gone by, it was the norm for the cooker switch to be above the cooker.

If I was doing an EICR, I would code it a C3, and yes, I would connect the hob but discuss the issue with the client first.

tin hat on.
 
I had the same issue with a well known company who fit kitchens,they redesigned the kitchen and fitted the cooker directly below the switch.previously it had been off to one side,they said that it wasn't a problem however I cited the reg about external detrimental influences as being a reason why they should not have done what they did.However the important thing in your situation is to remember that new regs are not retrospective,while there may be a reg now saying that you cannot locate something in a particular position this does not mean that something existing needs to be changed,however whilst I would agree that siting an isolator directly behind the hob is not ideal there may have been nothing preventing this in the regs at the time the install was originally done.
 
morning Phil pretty damned good here, enjoying my morning coffee before I head out into this beautiful day :)

How is Phil?
 
The issue here is the cooker switch maybe existing but the point of the cooker switch is for isolation in what could be an emergency like a fire, boiling over fat etc on the hob. Now any isolation point where access to it would require you to reach across the hazardous situe' you are trying to stop is obviously very dangerous and puts you at unnecessary danger, so any company fitting these hobs would have to make sure that in doing so the owner can safely isolate the hob in an emergency without having to reach across the danger.

The problem here is the owner should have been made aware of this at point of sale that additional works may be needed, if you buy say an electric shower that requires RCD protection as manufacturers recommendation and you are just replacing an old shower without rcd protection then you have to ensure the circuit is updated to meet the requirement, IMHO I believe this falls within the same kind of scenario.
 
dawsirn said:
I went to look at a job last night where the customer wanted advice about fitting a new hob.

She'd already ordered one from john lewis but when they arrived to fit it they refused as the cooker switch was directly above the hob (bottom of the switch 600m above). Said they couldn't because of "new regulations".

Obviously i would never fit a switch above a hob on a new install but as this is an existing install would it be acceptable to fit the hob anyway. Ideally the switch should be moved..but to do that I'd have to take off about 3 tiles (no replacements), a wall unit to (to access the cable run) and I'd have to extend x1 10mm t&e cable (supply) and x2 6mm t&e cables (loads)

I guess the other option is to do away with the switch join the cables and fit a blank but can't really say this is improving matters.

She's had the appliances refunded but wanted to know if I could fit the hob. gut feeling is no but not sure what others would do.

Cheers
Click to expand...

It could be if you took a cable from the cooker outlet plate into a base unit cupboard, fitted a cooker isolator to it within easy reach of the opened cupboard door then fed the cooker from that .... maybe??

Don't crucify me ..... I'm only a poor plumber. :sad_smile:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Geordie Spark said:
It could be if you took a cable from the cooker outlet plate into a base unit cupboard, fitted a cooker isolator to it within easy reach of the opened cupboard door then fed the cooker form that .... maybe??

Don't crucify me ..... I'm only a poor plumber. :sad_smile:
Click to expand...

Good move Geordie, done it a couple of times. Another "get out of jail free card" is if the C/U is within 3m of the hob. Classes as local isolation!
 
telectrix said:
c/u is in same house. if that's not local, what is?
Click to expand...

8 times out of 10 the C/U is in the kitchen anyway, ok it may be 4.23 meters away but at the end of the day "can it be turned off in case of a chip pan fire" (do people still have chip pans these days?)

Anything within the kitchen that is easily accessible is ok with me, as above, its local enough to be safe.
 
13.97654 ft. is that more precise? at least you can visualise feet.
 
Paul.M said:
8 times out of 10 the C/U is in the kitchen anyway, ok it may be 4.23 meters away but at the end of the day "can it be turned off in case of a chip pan fire" (do people still have chip pans these days?)

Anything within the kitchen that is easily accessible is ok with me, as above, its local enough to be safe.
Click to expand...

Yes!! .... You got a problem with that?? :angry_smile: .. :)
 
trev said:
Is that anything like 4.23 metres? Can you be more specific with your measurements next time please
:)
Click to expand...

Ok you got me on that Trev lol.


Talking about measurements, picked this up the other month at a car boot for a quid. Spot the mistake???

20141001_181818.jpg

An old slide rule that says 1 foot = 3048 metres. Should say 30.48 centimeters. Tickled me so I got it for a pound, may be worth £2 due to the mistake pmsl.
 
It says .3048 metres, look at the . For the line above it to compare size and position.

But it does look like a square yard is equal to 836 square metres from here!
 
thanks for the feedback.
I'll give her a ring tomorrow and run through some options. Poor ol' dear only wanted to treat herself to a nice new hob and gets a load of boring crap about Regulations! :)
 
dawsirn said:
thanks for the feedback.
I'll give her a ring tomorrow and run through some options. Poor ol' dear only wanted to treat herself to a nice new hob and gets a load of boring crap about Regulations! :)
Click to expand...

Being old has it's advantages - one of which is that you tend to care less about silly regulations & things on the grounds that you've come this far in life without them relatively unscathed so why bother with them now!!
 
Geordie Spark said:
Being old has it's advantages - one of which is that you tend to care less about silly regulations & things on the grounds that you've come this far in life without them relatively unscathed so why bother with them now!!
Click to expand...

You forget Geordie that many regulations are brought in on reflections of real deaths and injuries caused by what should be common sense, with a population of 70million it maybe the case you never here of any such events but they do happen and while the solutions are simple the just add a regulation to ensure that the idiots out there cannot just say it ok because the regs dont say you cant.
 
but then part pee was introduced as a result of a MP's daughter being electrocuted. that's really done the trade some good... NOT.
 
darkwood said:
You forget Geordie that many regulations are brought in on reflections of real deaths and injuries caused by what should be common sense, with a population of 70million it maybe the case you never here of any such events but they do happen and while the solutions are simple the just add a regulation to ensure that the idiots out there cannot just say it ok because the regs dont say you cant.
Click to expand...

I forget many things nowadays BUT I NEVER forget who I am, what I am, my strengths, weaknesses, limitations and my heritage! ;)
 
Paul.M said:
Ok you got me on that Trev lol.


Talking about measurements, picked this up the other month at a car boot for a quid. Spot the mistake???

View attachment 26487

An old slide rule that says 1 foot = 3048 metres. Should say 30.48 centimeters. Tickled me so I got it for a pound, may be worth £2 due to the mistake pmsl.
Click to expand...

Paul,

I think you need to get a magnifying glass out! It actually says .3048 metres ... correct.

GB
 
I've been back to a house twice now where there are 3 FCU isolators that are literally behind the gas hob. About 20cm up from the work surface. Two have suffered thermal damage and partially melted. Had to be replaced. Suggested to customer something be moved - hob or switches but theyre not interested as its a rental!
 
richy3333 said:
I've been back to a house twice now where there are 3 FCU isolators that are literally behind the gas hob. About 20cm up from the work surface. Two have suffered thermal damage and partially melted. Had to be replaced. Suggested to customer something be moved - hob or switches but theyre not interested as its a rental!
Click to expand...

If the previous were thermally damaged then surely you should not be replacing and walking, you should be contacting the landlord and expressing your concerns, making safe the circuit until it can be rectified, the inconvenience of losing the circuits normally pushes any landlord to say do what is needed as they don't want the tenant ringing up everyday and refusing to pay rent.

Dependent on the brand and material the spurs are made from - some can become conductive if excessively heat damaged and/or release toxic fumes as they heat up, personally I'd of refused to replaced them, made them safe and sent the payee a callout charge if they said they don't want it altering.

If its the tenant is the payee then say you can't do what they ask and they need to discuss with the landlord who responsibilty it is for upkeep of the electrics - this will be possibly a factor of the tenancy agreement and given the hazard is both a shock risk and property risk you can't replace.
 
Paul.M said:
Ok you got me on that Trev lol.


Talking about measurements, picked this up the other month at a car boot for a quid. Spot the mistake???

View attachment 26487

An old slide rule that says 1 foot = 3048 metres. Should say 30.48 centimeters. Tickled me so I got it for a pound, may be worth £2 due to the mistake pmsl.
Click to expand...
Look carefully there's actually a point,so it actually reads .3048 metres.shgts lol
 
darkwood said:
If the previous were thermally damaged then surely you should not be replacing and walking, you should be contacting the landlord and expressing your concerns, making safe the circuit until it can be rectified, the inconvenience of losing the circuits normally pushes any landlord to say do what is needed as they don't want the tenant ringing up everyday and refusing to pay rent.

Dependent on the brand and material the spurs are made from - some can become conductive if excessively heat damaged and/or release toxic fumes as they heat up, personally I'd of refused to replaced them, made them safe and sent the payee a callout charge if they said they don't want it altering.

If its the tenant is the payee then say you can't do what they ask and they need to discuss with the landlord who responsibilty it is for upkeep of the electrics - this will be possibly a factor of the tenancy agreement and given the hazard is both a shock risk and property risk you can't replace.
Click to expand...
I'm not the electrical police!and can only comment/advise as you suggested. Owner is aware (in writing for the sake of rectus protectus if nothing else), also the caretaker was told. Concerns expressed I was instructed to replace the faulty unit(s).
 
richy3333 said:
I'm not the electrical police!and can only comment/advise as you suggested. Owner is aware (in writing for the sake of rectus protectus if nothing else), also the caretaker was told. Concerns expressed I was instructed to replace the faulty unit(s).
Click to expand...


If your employed then granted the crap lays on the bosses shoulders if you have been instructed by him, if your self employed you should be refusing to do the replacement and expressing why.. no electrical police about it in my mind ... common sense! ... if the set-up has failed already due to environmental influences then your not doing your job correctly in recreating the same circumstances. I don't for one minute believe I'm been over keen here, its about knowing when you can replace and advise or just say NO! its a safety issue and as a professional I cannot do a replacement. This is not about trying to get one up on a member its about safety of an installation and/or risk to the public, its about deciding when you can just do a cheap replacement to keep every happy or hold your ground and say this isn't right and sorry I can't do that. IMHO if you have to keep replacing it because its getting cooked then you know my opinion already.

If the customer won't pay then walk away .... never let the cart lead the horse; your the professional here!
 
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darkwood said:
If your employed then granted the crap lays on the bosses shoulders if you have been instructed by him, if your self employed you should be refusing to do the replacement and expressing why.. no electrical police about it in my mind ... common sense! ... if the set-up has failed already due to environmental influences then your not doing your job correctly in recreating the same circumstances. I don't for one minute believe I'm been over keen here, its about knowing when you can replace and advise or just say NO! its a safety issue and as a professional I cannot do a replacement. This is not about trying to get one up on a member its about safety of an installation and/or risk to the public, its about deciding when you can just do a cheap replacement to keep every happy or hold your ground and say this isn't right and sorry I can't do that. IMHO if you have to keep replacing it because its getting cooked then you know my opinion already.

If the customer won't pay then walk away .... never let the cart lead the horse; your the professional here!
Click to expand...

Noted. Each to their own opinion and I don't necessarily have any quarts about whatnot say. I was there, I made my judgement call and have big enough pants to carry that call if the ****e hits the fan.
 
richy3333 said:
Noted. Each to their own opinion and I don't necessarily have any quarts about whatnot say. I was there, I made my judgement call and have big enough pants to carry that call if the ****e hits the fan.
Click to expand...
Fair do's will agree to disagree on this one then and plod onto the next thread of interest ;)
 
If the cooker control switch is just a switch i would tend to leave it where it is as long as it is not literally sitting on the hob where heat influence would obviously be a potential issue. However, if the cooker switch incorporates a socket which can be readily used with the possibility of trailing leads running above the hob i would attribute a C2 departure to this and advise the tenant on repositioning the point. If the tenant refuses this for whatever reason it would be time to walk away from the job.
 
richy3333 said:
I've been back to a house twice now where there are 3 FCU isolators that are literally behind the gas hob. About 20cm up from the work surface. Two have suffered thermal damage and partially melted. Had to be replaced. Suggested to customer something be moved - hob or switches but theyre not interested as its a rental!
Click to expand...


Just refer to any gas/Elec hob installation manual here and pull the prats pants down . From gas safe regs alone the hob should not have been fitted in the first place without moving the points first . This also should have been pulled on the yearly gas inspection and disconnected until made safe as the hobs manufacturers installation instructions were no followed . We get this a lot with DIY Landlords as ' Believe it or not ' gas hobs don't have to be registered (Optional) on install weather new or old as they are classed as non heat producing appliances . Go figure ! lol
 

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