Cut-throat Competition: The Race To The Bottom

[Paul228]

Just seen it mate.
Us sparkies are like those early energy saving bulbs....slow to brighten up hehe.

 

[Midwest]

Middy I see where you are coming from, and in some respects agree with you, but look at the number of, as you called them 5 week Sparks who have joined a scam, and the scam are willing to take their money, and yet some of these guys have, as I mentioned earlier a couple of worthless courses and are "qualified" you are always going to get the DIY Chancers, trying to save a few Bucks, imo the scams have a lot to answer for in recognising poorly trained Electricians, or DIs as they are called these days.

I think what blows you out of the water Pete, if you don't mind me saying, is someone like Sparkychick. Of course never seen any of her work, but could only comment on her integrity and the way she seems to project herself, as an example that such people can & would do a good and proper job. Granted, they have not done a 5 year apprenticeship, but the desire to do good and proper job, can't be denied.

There was a recent thread, of a young chap, be given an apprenticeship. Should be the A1 route, but sadly, in current times, some people have to fund it themselves.

 

[SparkyChick]

The price war race to the bottom affects all sorts of people. I have it on good authority, several people in various trades, that my pricing is about right for the area and I have no plans on being the cheapest because it just doesn't make business sense for anyone. I've actually increased my prices since starting because I wasn't making enough money to cover the slack periods and there has been no noticeable affect on the volume of business I'm doing.

And now I'm probably going to ruffle a few feathers, but so be it. The issue of short courses.

I did a short course and I have mixed feelings about it. Is it the ideal way to enter this trade? Not really. Would I prefer to have gone the apprenticeship route? Absolutely, but my work/life situation simply would not have allowed it, I'm not going to go into to much detail about it, but suffice to say 3 days in an office in Leicestershire, 300 mile a week driving back and forth Wales and variable work commitments that saw me travelling an awful lot (sometimes with only a few hours notice and sometimes for weeks at a time). By the time I made the decision to change career, the working arrangements had already cost me thousands on an OU maths degree that I failed because I couldn't get enough study time together due to work.

The short course is not where I want to leave my learning, but now I'm in a position to say "actually, I'm going to take myself off to college one day a week and get 2365 level 2" because I'm the boss and because I can, I'm currently looking into courses in the local area with a view to starting in September

However the electrical courses I took were not my first real encounter with electrical work. I did my first electrical job (small as it maybe) when I was about 7 years old (to put it into perspective and to save anyone from asking, that's over 30 years ago), putting plugs on for my Grandma (when we still had red, black and green insulation). Somewhere around the same time I got my own soldering iron so I wouldn't need to 'borrow' my Dads (he still to this day reminds me I need to return any tools I borrow promptly) or my Uncles (he was a international service engineer, so his iron had 3 banana plugs instead of a 13A plug which is where I got my first shock, unplugging it without turning it off). Since then I've been involved in all sorts of work for family, friends (partial rewires, new consumer units, new circuits - and no I didn't do anything that was notifiable once Part P came into force) and as part of various jobs in IT and research and development and just because I could and my employers knew it so they saved money by tasking me to do things. This side of it has include installing power supplies for IT gear, networking, diagnosing and fixing building system faults, CCTV, burglar alarms and designing and building cash handling and ticketing machines from component level (microcontroller based custom electronics, wiring looms etc.) right up to post supply field servicing and upgrades of said machines.

I know my limits and wouldn't dream of stepping outside them without help or the supervision of a more experienced spark, so I do get a little irritated (sometimes very) when all short coursers are tarred with the same brush, we are not all equal. But at the same time I understand the concerns you guys raise about some people who go that route. And to be brutally honest, there were people on the course with me I wouldn't let near a plug top let alone a consumer unit.

Part of the problem is they don't teach the basics (electrical stuff aside), like how to notch a joist (just where you should notch it), how to use power tools, what a spirit level is or anything like that. I'm pretty certain if you asked some of the guys on my course how to sink a back box into the wall, they'd have just looked at you funny and wondered WTF you were saying. I'm fairly confident in my ability to do mechanical and building type work because I spent a lot of my time with my Dad, he taught me the basics of carpentry, building, plumbing, mechanical engineering and car maintenance so I wouldn't get ripped off by unscrupulous blokes who think they can take women for a ride when it comes to such things and to be frank, the variety of skills and tasks I feel comfortable undertaking has shocked many a male colleague over the years. Most guys I know wouldn't even think about having a go at problems with their cars for example but I have no qualms taking an angle grinder and MIG welder to mine if I have to, normally it just involves a socket set and a torque wrench, but you get the picture.

Am I happy with the work I've done thus far? Yes because it's all checked out great from a testing perspective, where it's been addressing poor installation work it's ended up being safer than it was and the customers have all been happy, and no because I think I could have done some things better. But I have a lot to learn and I'm not afraid to admit it, which is why from time to time I'll ask questions of you guys and I'm very grateful for the advice I receive.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is... give us a chance we aren't all the same. I've seen enough garbage work done by apparently seasoned professionals to know it's not all about your route into the trade, the qualifications you have or the badge of your scheme. It's also about your work ethic and the direction your moral compass is pointing.

And so you can see I'm not a cowgirl who makes a mess of things (except maybe some of the plasterboard in these pics), here's a few pics from the kitchen rewire I did a few weeks back. Builder's happy, customer's happy and second fix is coming soon

P.S. I'm open to constructive criticism from the pics, just be gentle with me. The protective bonding conductor seemingly just hanging out is gone, replaced because it wasn't long enough at either end, the photo was taken before it got cut back and the empty back boxes were old and have all been removed.

 

[Pete999]

I think what blows you out of the water Pete, if you don't mind me saying, is someone like Sparkychick. Of course never seen any of her work, but could only comment on her integrity and the way she seems to project herself, as an example that such people can & would do a good and proper job. Granted, they have not done a 5 year apprenticeship, but the desire to do good and proper job, can't be denied.

There was a recent thread, of a young chap, be given an apprenticeship. Should be the A1 route, but sadly, in current times, some people have to fund it themselves.

I think what blows you out of the water Pete, if you don't mind me saying, is someone like Sparkychick. Of course never seen any of her work, but could only comment on her integrity and the way she seems to project herself, as an example that such people can & would do a good and proper job. Granted, they have not done a 5 year apprenticeship, but the desire to do good and proper job, can't be denied.

There was a recent thread, of a young chap, be given an apprenticeship. Should be the A1 route, but sadly, in current times, some people have to fund it themselves.

It's not the "Sparkychicks" of the world I was referring to, there are many on this Forum who have had to take this route, who are becoming, or have become good Sparks, I personally don't like the short course route, but then I'm a Mature Electrician as someone called me a while back, and find the short courses alien. I should have made my comments clearer, no, I was aiming my ire to the Jack the Lad type who post a 1 liner "how do I do this or that, thanks" not the Guys and Gals who have proven themselves worthy of the title Electrician, if you have ever checked the information on some of the profiles perhaps you will understand my concerns, an example: what electrical qualifications do you hold :Enough, All of them, are two examples that come to mind.

 

[Biggledyboo]

From another recent post on here. On any lead sites....you do get guys going in at screamingly low prices. You CANNOT compete with that.

Put a domestic job on Mybuilder once - 'Need 2 sockets adding in bedroom' - Lowest price came in at £65. That guy doesn't know the state of the current installation or where exactly I want the sockets. Just that I want them in a bedroom.

For all he knew it could have been wired up in VRI

He wrote the quote in the message. Then added at the bottom 'Will perform a series of safety tests afterwards.'

So, for adding two unknown sockets to an unknown installation. Then performing a series of safety tests. (Most likely a martindale plug in!) all for the great price of £65.

A potential customer will get that quote and think GREAT! Especially with the 'peace of mind' safety test at the end.

Gives them a false sense of pricing for electrical work.

That for me, was when I stopped using Mybuilder.

 

[Pete999]

From another recent post on here. On any lead sites....you do get guys going in at screamingly low prices. You CANNOT compete with that.

Put a domestic job on Mybuilder once - 'Need 2 sockets adding in bedroom' - Lowest price came in at £65. That guy doesn't know the state of the current installation or where exactly I want the sockets. Just that I want them in a bedroom.

For all he knew it could have been wired up in VRI

He wrote the quote in the message. Then added at the bottom 'Will perform a series of safety tests afterwards.'

So, for adding two unknown sockets to an unknown installation. Then performing a series of safety tests. (Most likely a martindale plug in!) all for the great price of £65.

A potential customer will get that quote and think GREAT! Especially with the 'peace of mind' safety test at the end.

Gives them a false sense of pricing for electrical work.

That for me, was when I stopped using Mybuilder.

Re my previous post "I rest my case"

 

[buzzlightyear]

any body quotes or estimates for a job and do not get it, don't dwell on it move on.
I do, for those who under cut other sparks they are not worth the salt.

 

[SparkyChick]

I've just had a quote accepted for some minor works outside (replacing failed PIR and adding a new one). Client came back and said my time estimates were a bit high. I said in the quote that they were cautious estimates (2 hours for the replacement because I'm totally expecting to have to run a new cable segment to the PIR because there's probably only an inch sticking out the wall and 3 for the addition because it's an unknown quantity that involves modifying the existing lighting circuit) that included an appropriate level of testing and that if it took an hour, they would be billed accordingly.

When he phoned to accept the quote, he pointed out that the last time he had the PIR changed, the chap was there for 15 minutes and it cost him £30. So, doing the maths, that's £120 an hour and you can bet it included no testing what so ever in those 15 minutes apart from maybe a bit of functional testing (bit hard functionally testing a PIR with a daylight sensor in daylight don't you think?).

It obviously hasn't computed in his head the disparity in charging rates (£30 for 15 minutes vs. £35 for 60 minutes) and I'm pretty certain he has no idea about the need for a building control notification for the additional PIR because it's outside. And of course he has no idea of the post install follow up I provide when ever I fit a PIR device (like going back when it gets dark to tweak it and then another visit if they're not happy with setup).

But here I am, a customer I'd like to keep because he has a big list of other works he wants doing and already I feel like I'm on the back foot because I'm being compared to someone who thinks it's OK to charge £30 for 15 minutes work and provide absolutely no testing what so ever. And other things he said makes me feel it might end up being a time and motion study to establish whether I'm wasting time in order to rip him off and well as we all know, rushing on jobs is a recipe for disaster or a trip to A+E or worse.

I think one of the big problems is a complete lack of understanding about what's involved right down to an understanding of the building regulations and the legal obligations they impose. It's the same thing that causes DIY disasters, the little things like checking you've tightened up all your terminations, particularly in a CU. It all takes time but it's that time the cowboys (and girls) don't spend that makes it difficult for those of us with a properly functioning moral compass to compete.

I'm sure I'm not alone, but it's the thought of how I'd feel if I didn't do a good job and something terrible happened. I don't think I could live with myself and it's scary. That's what drives me to make sure everything I do is just so. If I miss out on work because someone is not willing to pay for that care and attention to detail, then I want no part in working on their installation because it's probably already a right can of worms.

 

[Paul228]

I've just had a quote accepted for some minor works outside (replacing failed PIR and adding a new one). Client came back and said my time estimates were a bit high. I said in the quote that they were cautious estimates (2 hours for the replacement because I'm totally expecting to have to run a new cable segment to the PIR because there's probably only an inch sticking out the wall and 3 for the addition because it's an unknown quantity that involves modifying the existing lighting circuit) that included an appropriate level of testing and that if it took an hour, they would be billed accordingly.

When he phoned to accept the quote, he pointed out that the last time he had the PIR changed, the chap was there for 15 minutes and it cost him £30. So, doing the maths, that's £120 an hour and you can bet it included no testing what so ever in those 15 minutes apart from maybe a bit of functional testing (bit hard functionally testing a PIR with a daylight sensor in daylight don't you think?).

It obviously hasn't computed in his head the disparity in charging rates (£30 for 15 minutes vs. £35 for 60 minutes) and I'm pretty certain he has no idea about the need for a building control notification for the additional PIR because it's outside. And of course he has no idea of the post install follow up I provide when ever I fit a PIR device (like going back when it gets dark to tweak it and then another visit if they're not happy with setup).

But here I am, a customer I'd like to keep because he has a big list of other works he wants doing and already I feel like I'm on the back foot because I'm being compared to someone who thinks it's OK to charge £30 for 15 minutes work and provide absolutely no testing what so ever. And other things he said makes me feel it might end up being a time and motion study to establish whether I'm wasting time in order to rip him off and well as we all know, rushing on jobs is a recipe for disaster or a trip to A+E or worse.

I think one of the big problems is a complete lack of understanding about what's involved right down to an understanding of the building regulations and the legal obligations they impose. It's the same thing that causes DIY disasters, the little things like checking you've tightened up all your terminations, particularly in a CU. It all takes time but it's that time the cowboys (and girls) don't spend that makes it difficult for those of us with a properly functioning moral compass to compete.

I'm sure I'm not alone, but it's the thought of how I'd feel if I didn't do a good job and something terrible happened. I don't think I could live with myself and it's scary. That's what drives me to make sure everything I do is just so. If I miss out on work because someone is not willing to pay for that care and attention to detail, then I want no part in working on their installation because it's probably already a right can of worms.

We've all had those customers who say they could get it cheaper etc or last time it cost half the price you quote.
I have a simple rule with it.
I say, give me the number of the guy who can do it cheaper and I'll employ him.
Or I simply say, well why didn't you just get them back to do this, why did you call me, that's my price, if you can get it cheaper then do it.
I've had loads of these....And when you call their bluff, you end up getting the work 90% of the time

 

[Octopus]

£30 for 15 minutes is not £120 per hour. He had to drive there, then on to another job, and if he's honest with HMRC paperwork to do too.

 

[SparkyChick]

Gross cost to the customer it's £120 per hour. Whether he makes that in his pocket is another thing.

 

[Octopus]

I disagree. The customer wanted the job done and paid £30 which is more than reasonable imho. How it equates to hourly rates is irrelevent....

 

[SparkyChick]

Ok, I see where you're coming from, but hourly rates aside, the point I was really trying to get at was the lack of testing and the precedent that is set from the customer perspective in terms of time and price.

How can you counter that kind of perception?

 

[Paul228]

Educate the customer.
Tell them, whilst it's just changing out a faulty outside light, it comes under noticeable works as its outside.
So I can do the work and issue you with the paperwork or you can get someone else to do it and not bother issuing the paperwork.
But if the LA found out, you and/ or your installer could be taken to court.
Then wink at them and say a lot of reputable sparkies are actively reporting cowboys who carry out uncertified works.

 

[Octopus]

^^ depends on the customer. If they want out cheap no matter what there is not much that will sway them..... Until they come unstuck with some cow boy

 

[Paul228]

Don't get me wrong. I think all sparkies have done the odd job which should be notified, but didn't bother. Eg, my daughter's outside light wasn't working. I tested it, then replaced it with a new one.
Now I know there will be readers cussing in disgust at me.
Sue me!

 

[marc8]

been out to two EICR reports last few months both for people buying a house, well first 12 circuits 3 tested rest dashes throughout of the 3 the oven was one & the switch had not been removed as when I did the tiling dust & build dust all fell out & you could not move the range unit on your own.
the other only over weekend 7 circuits 3 tested amazing on sockets had a r1&r2 +r2.
limitations & same dashes all over the place claiming 10% on each.
I had to re-test 1st property when I looked in a side cupboard in eaves a batten holder had been removed & just a piece of loose tape on the live & N hanging free.
not even a mention.
my client paid me £150+Vat & found about 12 C1's.
this was family & the owner who had paid for the test could not believe it.
lucky people moving to the new bungalow will now be using my firm & are already talking about full rewire, they were new to the area 4 years ago had a rewire to the house when they moved in from a company from where they used to live.
this time they were going to use the chap who had completed the EICR on the property they were moving too until I asked if I could look at the cert & when I did I found same rubbish.
this bloke is doing me loads of favours keep up the good work.
I reported the first one for customer as they were really ----ed off & got well not sure what we can do, I was not even going to give out the NIC number but even with that they were not that interested.

 

[The Ghost]

A classic case in point; Did some track lights in domestic, showed customer wiring to downlights. They were appalled, the "builder" did it. They said they should have got a proper electrician in the first place. Of course they should. Rewired the whole lot, i.e. tracks and four downlights. And for those of you who are going to say it...that was the wiring before I intervened! It's all tucked up in lovely wago boxes now

 

[davesparks]

Sparkychic there's one thing in those pictures which would have got me told off when I was an apprentice, not flattening the vertical lugs in the single boxes before fitting them.

 

[SparkyChick]

Sparkychic there's one thing in those pictures which would have got me told off when I was an apprentice, not flattening the vertical lugs in the single boxes before fitting them.

Thanks, but can I ask... any particular reason? I've never given them a second thought.

 

[davesparks]

Thanks, but can I ask... any particular reason? I've never given them a second thought.

Yes, it gives you just that little bit more space when fitting the accessories, the unwanted lugs can have sharp edges which are not good if conductors end up pressed up against them.
Not such a concern with light switches but for a sfcu or DP switch every little bit of space can help.
With some makes of accessory you get terminal screws which are scarily close to those lugs if nor flattened. And some flat plataccesories even have a little label on them telling you to remove the top and bottom lugs before fitting them.

 

[SparkyChick]

Good advice, thanks. Probably second fixing at the weekend so I'll give them a little bit of TLC

 

[davesparks]

Good advice, thanks. Probably second fixing at the weekend so I'll give them a little bit of TLC

I do it on auto pilot these days, pick up the box, squash the lugs with my cutters then knock out the knockouts with them.

 

[rugbyspark1]

Electrical installation work, as all self-employed electricians will know, is a highly-competitive business. My own business operates mainly in the greater Glasgow area, and I have to say that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to compete on a level playing field.

I was recently approached by a builder who enquired as to what my fee would be to carry-out an EICR and some PA testing in domestic properties. I told him that I charge £100 for a one-bedroom house, £125 for a two-bedroom property, and £150 for a three-bedroom. Inspection and testing of outbuildings incur an additional fee. Imagine my surprise when he told me that my prices were "way too much". Imagine my further surprise when he told me that "the young electrician" that the builder currently uses to carry-out EICRs charges a flat-fee of £40. Aye, you read that correctly, £40 for an EICR regardless of the size of the property. My response was that I couldn't possibly compete with such a ridiculously low price unless I was willing to work for around £8-£10 an hour, or was willing to cut corners to save time, neither of which I would even begin to contemplate.

I occasionally use MyBuilder as a source of generating business, particularly during times when business is slack. I recently received a lead through the site inviting me to quote for a consumer unit upgrade. Upon contacting the customer to further discuss, the very first question that I was asked was the inevitable "how much is this going to cost me?" I told the customer that although I could provide an estimate, I could not, however, provide a fixed-price quotation prior to me having visited the customer's home and completed a survey. The customer responded by telling me that "all the other electricians I've shortlisted have given me a quotation so why can't you?"

I then explained to the customer that I was somewhat surprised to hear that electricians would even think about providing a fixed-price quotation for a consumer unit upgrade without having first attended the property and carried-out the requisite inspection and testing that needs to be done prior to a consumer unit replacement. The customer was having none of it. They wanted a price there and then. I once again reiterated that I could provide only an estimate at this stage, and told them that the work would cost anywhere between £250-£400 depending on a variety of factors. Imagine my astonishment when the customer told me that they had been given a fixed-price quotation of £200 over the phone by a "nice young man", and that they would now be offering the job to the comedian .... sorry .... electrician who quoted that unrealistically low price.

These two examples are but the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty more that I could cite. What particularly disturbs me is that it isn't "Dave down the pub" who is undercutting me, but young electricians who have not long completed their training. I just can't compete with the insane prices that these young electricians are quoting, particularly when some of them are evidently not even bothering to carry-out any essential inspection and testing before issuing quotations.

My gut instinct tells me that such scoundrels are most likely still living at home and being propped-up by 'the bank of mum and dad'. Perhaps the fools erroneously believe that the way to get ahead in business is to ruthlessly undercut everyone else. The strategy of a newly-started business using 'loss-leaders' as a means of winning customers is one thing, but I don't see how such a business model can possibly be sustained indefinitely. The end consequence of people quoting absurd prices is that a race to the bottom is instigated. It's a race that I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of ever participating in.

I'd be very interested to hear the views of other forum members regarding this issue as I'm sure plenty other electricians will have had similar experiences of cut-throat competition negatively impacting on their own businesses.

 

[rugbyspark1]

The last 3 yrs have had a number of bad installs all from NIEC reg companies. I wonder if it's due to Part Pee and our pretend electricians. During work I was asked to fit new metal light fitting, fitted and checked out earthing ! oops no earth. New C/U had been fitted by local company. Found this pic. Doubt if any testing done.

 

[Rpa07]

Looks like you've ' unearthed' a sea creature there - Did you see what I did! ?

 

[JK-Electrical]

Thank you all for your replies.

My lingering suspicion that the domestic market has been distorted has now been confirmed beyond any doubt. I'm now considering my position and am contemplating whether I should quit using MyBuilder altogether but remain in the domestic market with a revised marketing strategy, or whether I should just quit operating in the saturated domestic market altogether and leave the new breed of younger electricians to fight among themselves for jobs. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter course of action.

To demonstrate just how bad things are, I've attached a screenshot of a job that was recently posted on MyBuilder. The job was to remove an existing light fitting and fit a replacement. Nine people declared an interest. FFS. Nine electricians competing against one another for a small ten or fifteen minute job.

I won a job last week on MyBuilder to rewire a garage which I completed yesterday. While chatting with the customer, she revealed that from an initial pool of six interested parties, two were shortlisted. I was horrified to discover that the other (young) guy had quoted the customer a price over the phone without having first surveyed the work. I find it absolutely incredible that anyone purporting themselves as an electrician would not bother to inspect the existing installation. What if there was inadequate earthing and/or bonding? What if there was no RCD protection present? What if the garage required a TT earth?

Needless to say, my competitor's price was cheaper than mine. Indeed, my price was £350. His was just over £200. But he didn't get the job because I made sure that the customer was made aware of the requirements of regulation 131.8, and that by not priorly ascertaining the condition of an existing installation that he was hoping to make additions and alterations to, my competitor was willfully not complying with the requirements of BS 7671. One must wonder how many other regulations he considers to be inapplicable to himself.

Unfortunately, this (sharp) practice is commonplace on MyBuilder. Standards are being compromised right, left and centre. Sad but true. The race to the bottom continues unabated, but it's a race that I certainly won't be entering.

 

[Biggledyboo]

whether I should just quit operating in the saturated domestic market altogether and leave the new breed of younger electricians to fight among themselves for jobs. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter course of action[/QUOTE]



I'm a young electrician myself and I fully understand the dangers of going in disgustingly low to win jobs (undercut others) for work.
It de-values our skill-set and gives customers a false sense of pricing. Both of which are dangerous for the growth of our trade.

I like to think I keep my prices up with most of the sparks around my area. ----es me off royally knowing some little turd-burglar is nipping round changing lightfittings for a tenner, and doing C/U upgrades for £100.

 

[Des 56]

I find on these forums,probably because many electricians are self employed.quite a high proportion tend to vote Tory,yet in this thread there seems to be little regard for the most treasured of their values,its called free enterprise

Someone wants to spend the least amount of money,another person wants to provide that service,they may go in as low as needs be to win that contract,consequently the more expensive (or less efficient in Tory speak) they go to the wall

I know the resentment against these instant sparks is widespread however, We have a cut throat way of running an economy and some would say a foolhardy attitude by those who govern,but who votes for these fools ?

You reap what you sow, then you find the vegetation inedible

 

[JK-Electrical]

This "grandad electrician" was once a young electrician, but that was a long time ago lol. I'm now in the twilight years of my career and probably have about six or seven years ahead of me before retirement beckons. On the one hand, it saddens me to have witnessed such a sharp decline in standards in recent times, but on the other, it's good to see younger guys like yourself adhere to high standards and not prostitute yourself by selling yourself short. Good on ya!