Do you have to become Part P registered to certify work?

[Bear2016]

Hi

I was wondering if someone could offer some advice?

The business is doing a lot of kitchen and bathrooms and every so often they need a new cooker circuit or extractor fan, FCU for a standalone oven that sort of thing. At present I wire it in test it and then a lad I know comes and test it and signs it off for me but this has become a pain as I have to wait for him and his work load is increasing as is mine.

I've spoken to NAPIT and they have said I can become Part P registered however I have no intention of doing full rewires or changing CU and it seems like a lot of cost and work for something simple like adding a cooker or oven to a CU. If the CU needed upgrading I'd sub it out to an electrician as I just don't have time to do that sort of thing with multiple projects on the go.

Is this really the only way to be able to certify a new circuit apart from BRegs? NAPIT were going on about 3 phase and commercial stuff and that I could change CU and do rewires and I just could not get it through to them that is not what my business does.

Do all kitchen & bathroom fitters become Part P to wire in a circuit?

Many thanks

 

[Bear2016]

yeah. and you submit a building notice application along with a cheque for £300.

For a job you charge £100 for

 

[telectrix]

some BC s are more help. they only charge £295.

 

[Devonchris]

Hi thanks for keeping us informed on this saga. They have obviously been mulling it over and taking advice before replying.

Here's my take on it.

The Regs does not say you have to submit a building application submission. It says you have to inform a building control body before work begins.

They have accepted you are competent to carry out the work.

Email them before your next notifiable job. Give them 3 or 4 days notice. (Not too long to give them plenty of time to think about it.) Head it something like, building regulations, part P, notifiable work, prior information of work to be carried out.

Details of property

Details off work

Date work is to commence

Add ; in accordance with the building regs and your acceptance of my competence to carry out this work, I will be submitting BS7671 certification of inspection and testing, along with copies of my qualifications, on completion of the work.

That would (in my opinion) cover all the requirements in the regs.

See here

Certification by a building control body
3.8 If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party
certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body.
3.9 The building control body will determine the extent of inspection and testing needed for it to
establish that the work is safe, based on the nature of the electrical work and the competence
of the installer. The building control body may choose to carry out any necessary inspection and
testing itself, or it may contract a specialist to carry out some or all of the work and furnish it with
an electrical installation condition report.
3.10 An installer who is competent to carry out inspection and testing should give the appropriate
BS 7671 certificate to the building control body, who will then take the certificate and the installer’s
qualifications into account in deciding what further action, if any, it needs to take. Building control
bodies may ask installers for evidence of their qualifications.
3.11 This can result in a lower building control charge as, when setting its charge, a local authority is
required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to take account of the amount
of inspection work that it considers it will need to carry out.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to teach you to such eggs, it was just the easiest way to get down my thoughts.

Good luck. If you pull this off you will be a hero to the sole trader electrician and sworn enemy of the scheme providers.

 

[Devonchris]

It's obvious from Multimick's earlier post that some Councils are more in tune with the Regs than others, but you shouldn't be discriminated against dependant on where you work.

i cover west lancs ,chorley and wigan councils i just send in my bs7671 certs downloaded from iet website stick them in a folder with my 2391 never had a failure yet.

 

[Devonchris]

From my rambling posts it may appear that I am anti Scheme Providers. I'm not in general. It just appears that they have lost sight, probably due to complacency, of what they should represent.

They should be a trade body representing their members interests but they seem to have lost sight of that. Can you imagine someone turning up at a tube station offering to drive the train for half the going rate? and what the reaction would be from the drivers representatives? In effect, that's what's happening. But as long as people have to join to get their work signed off there is no incentive for the schemes to offer much else.

We don't seem to have any public information regarding the danger or potential difficulty of selling a house with dodgy electrics. Why can't the schemes get together and fund that?

Imagine if one of them got together with a meter manufacturer and came up with a MFT with a sim card and smartphone type interface, fill in the details of the property etc. Do the tests, press send, job done. Now perhaps that would be worth joining for. It could even be leased and included in your annual fees. To be returned if you left the scheme.

But while ever they have a monopoly on part P its not going to happen. Because at the moment it's all about profit and not about how to attract members.

Perhaps some of them will read this and decide to change. Then again.

 

[Bear2016]

This is the reply I have sent this morning to my LBC. A massive thankyou to Devonchris for all the advice given

Many thanks for your reply however I am unsure it has actually answered the question originally asked

After viewing Part P Electrical Safety - Dwellings Part 6 Section 3 may I draw your attention to the following points

Certification by a building control body
3.8 If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body.
* No where does the regulations stipulate that a Building Notice Application needs to be submitted. Could you please clarify your reason for stating this?
3.9 The building control body will determine the extent of inspection and testing needed for it to establish that the work is safe, based on the nature of the electrical work and the competence of the installer. The building control body may choose to carry out any necessary inspection and testing itself, or it may contract a specialist to carry out some or all of the work and furnish it with an electrical installation condition report.
3.10 An installer who is competent to carry out inspection and testing should give the appropriate BS 7671 certificate to the building control body, who will then take the certificate and the installer’s qualifications into account in deciding what further action, if any, it needs to take. Building control bodies may ask installers for evidence of their qualifications.
3.11 This can result in a lower building control charge as, when setting its charge, a local authority is required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to take account of the amount of inspection work that it considers it will need to carry out.
3.12 Once the building control body has decided that, as far as can be ascertained, the work meets all Building Regulations requirements, it will issue to the occupier a Building Regulations completion certificate (if a local authority) or a final certificate (if an approved inspector).
The majority of my work will involve adding an extra kitchen socket/s or and FCU for a white appliance above the worktop to comply with current electrical regs whilst installing a kitchen. As I have already been deemed to be of competence from the information and C&G details supplied I would expect to be able to submit the following 5 working days prior to starting the work
Details of property

Details off work

Date work is to commence

And in accordance with the building regs and your acceptance of my competence to carry out this work, I would submit a BS7671 certification of inspection and testing, along with copies of my qualifications, on completion of the work.

That would in my opinion cover all the requirements that are clearly stated in the Regulations.

Could you confirm if this would indeed to acceptable?

 

[andyb]

How does showing your qualifcations demonstrate you are competent?
I qualified in 1981, I could of been driving a bus ever since but as long as I forward a copy of my C&Gs I'm competent?

 

[Bear2016]

How does showing your qualifcations demonstrate you are competent?
I qualified in 1981, I could of been driving a bus ever since but as long as I forward a copy of my C&Gs I'm competent?

I did not write the regs but thats what they require.
I agree qualifications do not make you competent but I do now have a reference from a registered spark for some of the work I have done that he has checked and signed off on and willing to vouch the work I do and have done coincides with all the regs required.
Plus it does state in 3.10 they will access what further testing would be required but the underlying question is can it be done so I and others who are not on a Part P competent scheme and do the work without needing registration as the electrical is not our main core business but falls inside of our scope of work sometimes.
Personally I feel the schemes are not set up for the sole traders and certainly for people such as myself we are being bullied into a scheme that we don't actually need.

 

[andyb]

I did not write the regs but thats what they require.
I agree qualifications do not make you competent but I do now have a reference from a registered spark for some of the work I have done that he has checked and signed off on and willing to vouch the work I do and have done coincides with all the regs required.
Plus it does state in 3.10 they will access what further testing would be required but the underlying question is can it be done so I and others who are not on a Part P competent scheme and do the work without needing registration as the electrical is not our main core business but falls inside of our scope of work sometimes.
Personally I feel the schemes are not set up for the sole traders and certainly for people such as myself we are being bullied into a scheme that we don't actually need.

I was making a general point Bear.
I've been in the trade for 35 years and I wouldn't be able to assess a persons competence just by looking at a few certificates, so what chance has a person sitting behind a desk at LBC?
Not sugesting for one minute that you don't go down that route, I would.
Just saying that part or the regs is flawed.

 

[Devonchris]

A little bit more info here which supports your campaign.

2012 consultation on changes to the
Building Regulations in England

29. We could also amend the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 to
ensure that building control charges would be lower where qualified third party
electricians took over responsibility for inspection and testing from the building
control body and were able to issue a BS 7671 inspection and testing form. The lower
charges would recognise the savings in building control time, and reflect the fact that
the amendments to the Charges Regulations would require local authorities to take
into account third party certification in setting their charges.

30. These lower building control charges would apply equally to qualified electricians
capable of inspecting and testing their own notifiable electrical installation work (and
of issuing a BS 7671 Electrical Installation Certificate), and who under the existing
arrangements choose, for whatever reason, not to join a registration scheme.

 

[Octopus]

I was making a general point Bear.
I've been in the trade for 35 years and I wouldn't be able to assess a persons competence just by looking at a few certificates, so what chance has a person sitting behind a desk at LBC?
Not sugesting for one minute that you don't go down that route, I would.
Just saying that part or the regs is flawed.

Not sure the schemes are the right answer either ........................ they "inspect" 1 or 2 jobs - which are the ones the installer suggests .................... nobody in their right mind would take an assessor to a job thats below par .................

AND the schemes seem to do nothing about complaints..................

What a fantastic situation......................

I was on a job moving a BT point recently. The builder was Part P registered and his work left a lot to be desired ...................

 

[andyb]

Not sure the schemes are the right answer either ........................ they "inspect" 1 or 2 jobs - which are the ones the installer suggests .................... nobody in their right mind would take an assessor to a job thats below par .................

AND the schemes seem to do nothing about complaints..................

What a fantastic situation......................

I was on a job moving a BT point recently. The builder was Part P registered and his work left a lot to be desired ...................

It's not perfect by a long way Murdoch, but it's better than just showing a certificate to someone who has no electrical knowledge.
It might only be 2 jobs but it's 2 jobs more than the LBC see, and they're both inspected by a qualified electrician/engineer.
Then there's the fact that you need to show you know how to undertake testing to the latest regs including answering various question. You are required to show your test equipment including callibration evidence, show your insurance documents and show all the necessary publications relevent to the work you undertake, ie regs, on-site guide, part p doc and so on.

 

[Bear2016]

It's not perfect by a long way Murdoch, but it's better than just showing a certificate to someone who has no electrical knowledge.
It might only be 2 jobs but it's 2 jobs more than the LBC see, and they're both inspected by a qualified electrician/engineer.
Then there's the fact that you need to show you know how to undertake testing to the latest regs including answering various question. You are required to show your test equipment including callibration evidence, show your insurance documents and show all the necessary publications relevent to the work you undertake, ie regs, on-site guide, part p doc and so on.

TBF you do not know who is looking at the certs and it could be a trained spark with a lifetime of electrical knowledge? I have been informed they do have some working for the LBC
LBC will certainly inspect or check the first few jobs or appoint someone else to check my work which I strongly agree with. The idea is they perform these checks ascertain what you are competent at how you have done the testing and collate that information and give you a risk factor for the work you do. This can vary from needs further checking of your work on future jobs or that you are competent to perform that particular work again with no further inspections required.
As a limited company and part of the councils trusted trader scheme the LBC will already know that I have insurance as it is a requirement for them and Trading Standards. I also had to provide them with documentation of any calibrated equipment and regulation books I work to which also included me proving I had copies of Part F,G,H and P. When the renewal comes up I will have to submit it all again.
Obviously this is just for my company but as you have said I am unsure whether LBC would check those things but as a TT member I have to check that all my subcontractors are insured for the work they do and part of the Construction Industry Scheme.
If I were to undertake full rewires, CU I understand the necessity for the schemes but for those of us who do the odd little bit here and there it is not practical. If I come across a house that I think needs a rewire or a CU done I get a subcontractor in who does it for me who incidentally has exactly the same qualifications as me but I would deem more competent than I to do that sort of work. Hence why I call in a pro!
I guess the bottom line is whether you agree with it or not the facility to do what I am asking is there and should not be a battle to try and get a LBC to abide by the rules but instead the schemes and LBC seem to have forgotten about it and want you to join the masses of paying out your hard earned money for not a lot in return.

 

[Octopus]

^^ I see more poor installs in kitchens and bathrooms by so called "fitters" than any other work on lecky in houses

 

[Bear2016]

^^ I see more poor installs in kitchens and bathrooms by so called "fitters" than any other work on lecky in houses

C,mon every trade has their rouge tradesmen who have no pride in their work or respect for their customer and have a "that will do attitude" Sorry you seem to have found so many but its certainly not how my company or subcontractors conduct themselves.

 

[Wilko]

The LBC challenge is to determine competence in each and every case. As you will hear and read competence is a topic of hot discussion. In this less than perfect world the CPS does give LBC a way. While there are other options available, I think LBC choose this path as its minimum work and responsibility for them to achieve their bit. The other paths are clearly possible but the saying "lead a horse to water ..." comes to mind.