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A bit of a blanket statement there...
There are some good people on here who have taken the short course and then gone on to expand their knowledge and experience. I take my hat off to them and would class them as sparks.
Because kids aren't taught that electricians are gods, instead they're sold the dream of university debt
Because Mrs Jones thinks it's easy because it's on YouTube so wants it cheap
Because why be a trade college with an intake of 50-60 apprentice's a year with no money when you can advertise lies on the internet and have an intake of 50-60 a month with a credit card
Because.....
Because.....
I could be wrong, but isn't this how @SparkyChick started out in the industry?
I don't think anyone could argue against the value of apprenticeships, nor the fact that short courses alone fall far short of being an ideal means of training, but anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking that apprenticeships are a guarantee of quality workmanship, yet reality often proves otherwise.
It's been an option for quite a few who've left the forces. I know an 'electrician' who left the army who did one. He couldn't quite grasp things after trying to go self employed and lost cash. As a result, his family are generally crapping themselves every time he goes away, as a mercenary.
I'm not sure that I follow your thinking on this.
DI's are exceptionally limited in the work they can undertake, unless they use that course as a stepping stone to a significant amount of further training. Even accounting for the work they can carry out, I don't imagine that many of them paid thousands of pounds just to go out and work for peanuts.
There's no doubting the fact that many electricians earn much less than they ideally should, but I don't think DI's are to blame for that. Do you believe that electricians were rolling in cash before the Domestic Installer title was created?
It seems I may have been misled by a typo...
Amazing how one letter can make such a difference ?
It annoys me that the industry feels the need to divide itself up into domestic, commercial and industrial to the point that is an electrician really an electrician anymore with the all encompassing skills that were taught in the past in an industry that is getting evermore complicated.
There has always been a divide in the industry with electricians who were happier as installation electricians and those who would also tackle faultfinding and the more technical tasks this was generally recognised with the JIB grading system
All joking aside would there be a problem if these assumed transferable skills were put to a written exam or a practical test rather than the standardised assessment that most seem to want
Although they were much maligned in the 80's the skillcentres with their 6 month courses turned out some good installation electricians that could work in most of the industries sectors, when they finished the course they were not the finished electrician and still had a lot to learn and skills to hone but they had a good base to work up from
Discuss "Domestic installer " due to be binned? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
Who are the "powers that be" and any references for this information?
Only thing I've heard in relation to DI is that the NICEIC (not sure about the other CPS') are changing their entry requirements for the domestic installers scheme so from Sept this year an NVQ level 3 or equivalent is required, effectively making it impossible for a person that has done only a DI course to join.
Only thing I've heard in relation to DI is that the NICEIC (not sure about the other CPS') are changing their entry requirements for the domestic installers scheme so from Sept this year an NVQ level 3 or equivalent is required, effectively making it impossible for a person that has done only a DI course to join.
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What’s a domestic installers course ? Is it one of those 5 day fast track oven baked things
imo 5 days isn’t long enough to become a qualified electrician. It should be 6 days
imo 5 days isn’t long enough to become a qualified electrician. It should be 6 days
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make it 7. can't have traineees lying in bed late on a Sunday. how can they face the real world then?
I heard from someone who had a NICEIC inspector around .The inspector said they are planning on not accepting DI qualification only and REMOVING those who only have the DI qualification from their scheme ?????
They won't accept the DI course as it's not an NVQ or equivalent. Those on the scheme already will not be removed, the changes only affect people joining the scheme after 1st sept 21.
That makes sense. The "Binning" idea sounds really bad news for guys who have joined etc
It is a bit of a half hearted attempt to fix a problem that they created IMO, those already in the scheme should be given a period of time to update or even demonstrate they are bringing their qualifications up to the required minimum standard for membership, I don't think a keep on paying your fees and you will be ok to carry on is good enough you could end up with a part of the scheme membership that is below the required new entry level for potentially 30 - 40 years
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The DI 'short course electrician' was nothing short of a band wagon scam to fill the coffers of the scams.
It turned Dave the plumber into Dave the Electrician literally overnight with little to no actual on-site experience.
If we really want a better standard for domesticated electrician then the scams should put on some proper courses for Dave
It turned Dave the plumber into Dave the Electrician literally overnight with little to no actual on-site experience.
If we really want a better standard for domesticated electrician then the scams should put on some proper courses for Dave
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Panic will ensue surely in the DI fraternity?
Surely those in panic will be the training companies it will be harder to sell that dream now
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A bit of a blanket statement there...
There are some good people on here who have taken the short course and then gone on to expand their knowledge and experience. I take my hat off to them and would class them as sparks.
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From me the whole D.I thing was backwards and degraded the trade as a whole
do you have domestic plumbers or domestic carpenters , no , you have plumbers and carpenters
the entire D.I thing was ill though out and just a cash grab scam
why can’t we just go back to the days of an electrician was an electrician
do you have domestic plumbers or domestic carpenters , no , you have plumbers and carpenters
the entire D.I thing was ill though out and just a cash grab scam
why can’t we just go back to the days of an electrician was an electrician
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As mentioned those already registered are okay. If you now try to join the DI scheme then you will require the qualifications or have been a qs for 2+ years.
I did post something about this recently. I think the training centres will be rethinking things.
I did post something about this recently. I think the training centres will be rethinking things.
The training takes to long and doesn't fit in with "it's only two wires how complicated can it be" for a lot of people
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Because as a nation we're losing traditional skills and the education system is designed solely to teach kids how to look up the answer
Because kids aren't taught that electricians are gods, instead they're sold the dream of university debt
Because Mrs Jones thinks it's easy because it's on YouTube so wants it cheap
Because why be a trade college with an intake of 50-60 apprentice's a year with no money when you can advertise lies on the internet and have an intake of 50-60 a month with a credit card
Because.....
Because.....
THis 100% . The whole route to been qualified is a mess . I think it should only have one road and a government controlled body.Not private businesses been "in charge "
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Wholeheartedly agree well said Luke.
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Paid being the operative word, " you pays yer money"
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I could be wrong, but isn't this how @SparkyChick started out in the industry?
I don't think anyone could argue against the value of apprenticeships, nor the fact that short courses alone fall far short of being an ideal means of training, but anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking that apprenticeships are a guarantee of quality workmanship, yet reality often proves otherwise.
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Don't start getting words mixed up...it's 'wet pants' who aren't house trained?
What difference would it make if all the DI courses just disappeared tomorrow?
None whatsoever...
As mentioned, you'll still have DIY, handymen, kitchen fitters doing substandard work and some of that group will do better work than the almighty time served spark.
It's purely down to the individual.
None whatsoever...
As mentioned, you'll still have DIY, handymen, kitchen fitters doing substandard work and some of that group will do better work than the almighty time served spark.
It's purely down to the individual.
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Agreed as also pointed out by @Spoon so let's not turn this into a DI basher exercise. As @nicebutdim points out being time served is no guarantee of competence there are plenty if bad apples from that side of the fence also, I should know I am one.
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There are a good few on here, some who've gone on to higher level, strima's a good example. Many to be admired....others taken to the cleaners by con men charging a fortune.
It's been an option for quite a few who've left the forces. I know an 'electrician' who left the army who did one. He couldn't quite grasp things after trying to go self employed and lost cash. As a result, his family are generally crapping themselves every time he goes away, as a mercenary.
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I'm not sure that I follow your thinking on this.
DI's are exceptionally limited in the work they can undertake, unless they use that course as a stepping stone to a significant amount of further training. Even accounting for the work they can carry out, I don't imagine that many of them paid thousands of pounds just to go out and work for peanuts.
There's no doubting the fact that many electricians earn much less than they ideally should, but I don't think DI's are to blame for that. Do you believe that electricians were rolling in cash before the Domestic Installer title was created?
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Whatever happens it would be great if all of the nations could come up with a better way of getting into the industry for those of us who're too old and have too many bills to pay to afford apprenticeship wages.
As @ipf mentioned the DI scheme was, and currently still is, an attractive resettlement course for many folks leaving the armed forces, it was run as a 3 or 5 week course titled "NAPIT full scope domestic electrician" or something very like that. A number of my ex-colleagues have done it with varying degrees of business success and it was a course I considered but rejected as I was moving back to Scotland where the qualifications mean effectively diddly squat to SELECT/SJIB when it comes to registering as an electrician.
So yeah, a better way of recognising prior learning for those of us with a lot of electrical/electronics experience and a more coherent approach from all of the industry bodies would be nice, but that's a wishlist I never expect to see happen.
As @ipf mentioned the DI scheme was, and currently still is, an attractive resettlement course for many folks leaving the armed forces, it was run as a 3 or 5 week course titled "NAPIT full scope domestic electrician" or something very like that. A number of my ex-colleagues have done it with varying degrees of business success and it was a course I considered but rejected as I was moving back to Scotland where the qualifications mean effectively diddly squat to SELECT/SJIB when it comes to registering as an electrician.
So yeah, a better way of recognising prior learning for those of us with a lot of electrical/electronics experience and a more coherent approach from all of the industry bodies would be nice, but that's a wishlist I never expect to see happen.
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I suspect that was aimed at the armed forces. Effectively taking a pay cut in real terms for 8 years whilst being asked to do more with less resources, just like all the other public sector workers.
This is neither the time nor the place for that debate though.
This is neither the time nor the place for that debate though.
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It seems I may have been misled by a typo...
should have read "Now" there is a trade ... Private security/merc work is paying peanuts these days . Unless you are linked into major companies /teams . Base security teams in iraq etc could earn a good wage.Now i heard it Indians etc on $50 a day !
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Amazing how one letter can make such a difference ?
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Or not if it’s in their favour
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You can do alright with the Wagner Group ?
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I got an offer years back to be an electrical civvy on the Iraq and Afghan camps, some serious wedge at the time and I was very tempted until I'd deliberated for so long I got beaten to the news I was going to be a daddy, at which point all bets were off. Give it another ten years and I could consider the Antarctic research station for six months, though.
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I did 12 month on top of Mt Olympus in Cyprus, not nice as it sounds, and if you have a young family it's hard to take any lengthy times away from your loved ones, think long and hard before you commit Mate, it ain't all roses believe me.
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Absolutely spot on.
If an industry sets a level of standards why should that industry be expected to dilute the level of those standards to allow people entry into that industry that don't have the time, can't afford the lower earnings while learning and all the other excuses that are used to gain a fast track into the industry
NAPIT originally set out to maintain standards in inspection and testing and now they are like the rest whatever you want to call it the domestic "electrician" / "installer" once the domestic and installer is dropped it all ends up as I'm an electrician which is misleading, I've lost count of the number of times when talking to these "electricians" how often I hear I don't understand 3 phase.
It annoys me that the industry feels the need to divide itself up into domestic, commercial and industrial to the point that is an electrician really an electrician anymore with the all encompassing skills that were taught in the past in an industry that is getting evermore complicated.
There has always been a divide in the industry with electricians who were happier as installation electricians and those who would also tackle faultfinding and the more technical tasks this was generally recognised with the JIB grading system
I was talking to a butcher a few weeks ago that was thinking of retraining as a veterinary surgeon as he felt he had transferable skills??
All joking aside would there be a problem if these assumed transferable skills were put to a written exam or a practical test rather than the standardised assessment that most seem to want
Although they were much maligned in the 80's the skillcentres with their 6 month courses turned out some good installation electricians that could work in most of the industries sectors, when they finished the course they were not the finished electrician and still had a lot to learn and skills to hone but they had a good base to work up from
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I’m very much not arguing or asking that the standards be diluted, nor am I looking for a “fast track” into the industry. What I would like is recognition of the equivalence of the training and experience I already have and a way to simply top that up rather than starting from scratch at the very bottom of a ladder I’d already been most of the way up. I’m sorry that having pursued a parallel career path for a decade sounds like an excuse.
An example being 3 phase. I learned the theory and the practical of motors, generators, distribution and all the rest to the same depth as the Level 3 2365 course but my courses had a different module number so aren’t recognised. A test that gets me to prove that I have retained that knowledge would suffice, rather than making me go back to college just to get the correct number on a certificate.
Since leaving I’ve primarily worked on 3 phase equipment and distribution boards. I’ve learnt how to properly terminate and gland SWA and SY, as well as seeing how not to do it. I’ve designed, installed and tested new circuits for both the plant floor and the various offices. I’ve actually done inspection, testing and certifying of my work, with a calibrated MFT and everything, which is more than I can say of the two main electrical contractors my employer uses. Both l of them are SELECT and NICEIC registered companies with graded electricians whose work has repeatedly been found to not meet the wiring regs, and I’ve not yet seen them break any test equipment out after running in entire new panels or LV distribution circuits.
None of that actually counts for anything in Scotland it seems, although there is the mature candidate assessment route in England the Scottish equivalent is given only a brief mention by SJIB and I’ve struggled to find any mention of the required courses other than having to complete a FICA assessment (which I’m confident I’d pass from what I’ve read
about it).
An example being 3 phase. I learned the theory and the practical of motors, generators, distribution and all the rest to the same depth as the Level 3 2365 course but my courses had a different module number so aren’t recognised. A test that gets me to prove that I have retained that knowledge would suffice, rather than making me go back to college just to get the correct number on a certificate.
Since leaving I’ve primarily worked on 3 phase equipment and distribution boards. I’ve learnt how to properly terminate and gland SWA and SY, as well as seeing how not to do it. I’ve designed, installed and tested new circuits for both the plant floor and the various offices. I’ve actually done inspection, testing and certifying of my work, with a calibrated MFT and everything, which is more than I can say of the two main electrical contractors my employer uses. Both l of them are SELECT and NICEIC registered companies with graded electricians whose work has repeatedly been found to not meet the wiring regs, and I’ve not yet seen them break any test equipment out after running in entire new panels or LV distribution circuits.
None of that actually counts for anything in Scotland it seems, although there is the mature candidate assessment route in England the Scottish equivalent is given only a brief mention by SJIB and I’ve struggled to find any mention of the required courses other than having to complete a FICA assessment (which I’m confident I’d pass from what I’ve read
about it).
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Appreciate the thoughts. Like I say, in another ten years - maybe. I'll be too fooked physically by then to still be touring but not quite old enough to sell up and buy a boat in warm seas. And.... I'm used to being away from the family although only normally for 5-6-7 week kind of stints.
I think a DI course that truly trains anyone to be allowed to do domestic work only is FINE .But the course must run long enough and the exam at the end detailed to be able to only allow the best to pass. But companies just want turn over and revenue !
That is why I used the example
But that would fail on the time taken to complete the course for most
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a youtuber has made a video about this …
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