"Domestic installer " due to be binned?

[LukeD]

The ending is so obvious ... Someone will earn millions from "filling the gap"

 

[Dustydazzler]

The ending is so obvious ... Someone will earn millions from "filling the gap"

Of course they will , as one door closes another opens

CPS schemes will offer 1 week intense training courses to join their scam , at probably a grand

 

[GBDamo]

If an industry sets a level of standards why should that industry be expected to dilute the level of those standards to allow people entry into that industry that don't have the time, can't afford the lower earnings while learning and all the other excuses that are used to gain a fast track into the industry


NAPIT originally set out to maintain standards in inspection and testing and now they are like the rest whatever you want to call it the domestic "electrician" / "installer" once the domestic and installer is dropped it all ends up as I'm an electrician which is misleading, I've lost count of the number of times when talking to these "electricians" how often I hear I don't understand 3 phase.
It annoys me that the industry feels the need to divide itself up into domestic, commercial and industrial to the point that is an electrician really an electrician anymore with the all encompassing skills that were taught in the past in an industry that is getting evermore complicated.
There has always been a divide in the industry with electricians who were happier as installation electricians and those who would also tackle faultfinding and the more technical tasks this was generally recognised with the JIB grading system


I was talking to a butcher a few weeks ago that was thinking of retraining as a veterinary surgeon as he felt he had transferable skills??
All joking aside would there be a problem if these assumed transferable skills were put to a written exam or a practical test rather than the standardised assessment that most seem to want

Although they were much maligned in the 80's the skillcentres with their 6 month courses turned out some good installation electricians that could work in most of the industries sectors, when they finished the course they were not the finished electrician and still had a lot to learn and skills to hone but they had a good base to work up from

Regarding the Domestic/ Commercial/Industrial delineation, I think it is due to efficiency.

The industry has become far more regulated, refer to the ever expanding waistline of BS7671, and increasingly specialised.

Most capable sparks could read up on the requirements and work outside their field competently and compliantly, but efficiently?

I've knocked a few jobs back due to lack of experience/comfort.

One was a run of 240mm 4 core SWA from a 1000A bus bar chamber to a TPN board in a GRP enclosure. Just too much learning and not enough skills...and a very twitchy sphincter.

I actually think the industry would benefit from splitting the qualifications and better tailoring them to the specific sectors with bridging courses where required.

 

[LukeD]

Regarding the Domestic/ Commercial/Industrial delineation, I think it is due to efficiency.

The industry has become far more regulated, refer to the ever expanding waistline of BS7671, and increasingly specialised.

Most capable sparks could read up on the requirements and work outside their field competently and compliantly, but efficiently?

I've knocked a few jobs back due to lack of experience/comfort.

One was a run of 240mm 4 core SWA from a 1000A bus bar chamber to a TPN board in a GRP enclosure. Just too much learning and not enough skills...and a very twitchy sphincter.

I actually think the industry would benefit from splitting the qualifications and better tailoring them to the specific sectors with bridging courses where required.

100% . There is ZERO reason why a kitchen fitter cannot be trained to do the electrics in a new domestic kitchen etc .Within a well structured 2 month full time course . If thats the guys career , why bog him down with stuff he does not wish to do etc ?

 

[mattg4321]

Disagree. Working on existing ring finals is actually relatively difficult compared with a new ring final. You need to test the existing circuit and make a judgement as to whether it is in good condition and also suitable for potentially adding extra load/circuit length to.

2 months is nothing like enough time to do that from scratch.

Kitchen fitters should stick to fitting kitchens unless they’ve done the relevant courses in gas/electrical etc and are competent in these fields.

 

[Zerax]

As I've said before on here... the whole qualification path needs a radical re-vamp ! The 'tweaking' that's done on a regular basis just increases the mess.

I think there needs to be a single structure for all entrants regardless of experience/aptitude/age etc... those more able will simply progress at a quicker pace than others. Theoretical exams and practical assessments should become more complex/challenging as the course progresses. At the end, you become a 'qualified electrician'... but there should be intermediate stepping stones to allow for achievement to be recognised.

Once I've sorted out the training scheme... I'm going to focus on re-writing all those appalling overpriced IET publications !

 

[UNG]

Regarding the Domestic/ Commercial/Industrial delineation, I think it is due to efficiency. a money making marketing opportunity

Fixed that for you

The industry has become far more regulated, refer to the ever expanding waistline of BS7671, and increasingly specialised.

The industry hasn't really become that much more regulated there are too many out there claiming to be electricians with little or no qualifications or experience yet they were accepted and given some credibility by the CPS's who saw an easy money making opportunity
By creating "specialisms" you again create money making opportunities as more mostly uneccessary courses are created

Most capable sparks could read up on the requirements and work outside their field competently and compliantly, but efficiently?

I agree, a lot depends on how capable and competent the person is though

I've knocked a few jobs back due to lack of experience/comfort.

One was a run of 240mm 4 core SWA from a 1000A bus bar chamber to a TPN board in a GRP enclosure. Just too much learning and not enough skills...and a very twitchy sphincter.

A bread and butter job that one

I actually think the industry would benefit from splitting the qualifications and better tailoring them to the specific sectors with bridging courses where required.

The industry is already overloaded with unnecessary meaningless courses so why create more by splitting qualifications and creating partially skilled electricians

I think you would then need to redefine the term electrician so as not to misrepresent the operative and also mislead the customer / client as to what the person(s) they are employing are actually trained as,

 

[nicebutdim]

How many apprentices gain significant experience outside of a fairly narrow field, during their training?

 

[Dustydazzler]

I’ve worked with ‘electricians’ who have never installed or even touched ‘Micc‘ but are approved contractors with a scam. Just because you have limited knowledge or experience doesn’t make you a bad electrician.

I can drive a car but not a bus, does that automatically make me a bad driver….??

 

[Vortigern]

I have always maintained that DI is easy really. I think the theory aspect is very simple as it goes. The practical aspects take a lot more learning. I believe that a few days course could easily equip you with the necessary theory. But again the practice, i.e. on site skills is not taught. This is where it all breaks down. I got a level three with all the qualies and asked them to have a look at the earthing and bonding and report back to me the condition before we started work. They did not have the faintest clue as to even where to look for the incoming water pipe. Thirty minutes later I pointed out their inability was due to lack of experience and that part was what they needed under a mentor to even become a proper DI. It is often a requirement that two years experience are stated as a necessary qualification to even do a D.I. course, the problem is that no college or private trainer rigorously enforces that. If they did the whole thing might be a very different picture.

 

[Dustydazzler]

It’s the chicken and the egg , how do you get experience without qualifications and how do you get qualifications without experience…

i think back to when I was 19 I did both at once via an apprenticeship

but I know a lot of older people really struggling to find a decent apprenticeship after leaving a different career to start a new one as an electrician

 

[Zerax]

but I know a lot of older people really struggling to find a decent apprenticeship after leaving a different career to start a new one as an electrician

Alot of the reason for that, is that in the 'olden' times... you started a job/career/apprenticeship at 16 or so... and stayed with that for the rest of your working life. The modern way is to chase the money or chase the dream... so swapping around to find a higher paid job or one that you find 'fulfilling' is becoming the norm.

 

[telectrix]

heard one yesterday. job description was social media consultant. is that advising students how to post crap on faceache? whatever , they're doing a fantastic job.

 

[UNG]

How many apprentices gain significant experience outside of a fairly narrow field, during their training?

Back in the day when I was at college the 3 year day release course to get your A and B certs covered virtually all the aspects of electrical work from domestic through to industrial. My apprenticeship was mainly industrial and commercial with very very little domestic work but it didn't mean I could do domestic work

I’ve worked with ‘electricians’ who have never installed or even touched ‘Micc‘ but are approved contractors with a scam. Just because you have limited knowledge or experience doesn’t make you a bad electrician.

It only demonstrates how much has been cut from courses and how bare minimum they are now in order to make them "quick" for the I want it now generation, when I went to college you were taught about and had hands on with various cables although one of the old electricians I worked with showed me how to wipe a lead joint on a PILC as the college had stopped teaching that a few years before I started

I can drive a car but not a bus, does that automatically make me a bad driver….??

There are many that think they can drive a car and clearly can't so why would you want them driving a bus

From a basic knowledge perspective the statement that I have heard quite often from some electricians that always makes me laugh is "I don't understand 3 phase and I don't need to because I only do domestic" so how narrow do you go when it comes to training, how many domestic installers are actually taught any fault finding skills, installation is easy it's when it goes wrong that you show your skill

 

[i=p/u]

Dumb it down that much they ain't fit to govern and take responsibility for their so called competent members.

 

[telectrix]

they're just bean counters now. don't give a f8ck about the trade as long as the cash cow is being milked.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Im not necessarily against having DI scams , but the joke thing seems a bit naff and I’ll thought out. It needs a revamp and a rebranding and called something else. Domesticated Installer is pants.
Perhaps rebrand it to something like Defined Scope Electrician.
Offer a basic vetting service so Defined scope electricians can prove basic competence before allowing to join the scam…

 

[Zerax]

Offer a basic vetting service so Defined scope electricians can prove basic competence before allowing to join the scam…

Judging by some of the work I see from 'Approved Contractors'... I think all scam members should have to prove basic competence.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Judging by some of the work I see from 'Approved Contractors'... I think all scam members should have to prove basic competence.

Yes that do , but that’s another saga all together

let’s start with the house bashers then move on to the other stuff

 

[UNG]

Im not necessarily against having DI scams , but the joke thing seems a bit naff and I’ll thought out. It needs a revamp and a rebranding and called something else. Domesticated Installer is pants.
Perhaps rebrand it to something like Defined Scope Electrician.
Offer a basic vetting service so Defined scope electricians can prove basic competence before allowing to join the scam…

I think whatever name you give it electrician needs removing from the name further more I think the whole setup needs to operate under a different scheme banner to disassociate it from the NICEIC and even NAPIT so there is no confusion as to what the scheme is about, that is if we even need a lower bar in the industry.

I notice from some of the stuff on this subject there is a requirement for proof of CPD so is this in the hope they can get every existing member up to the minimum entry level within the next few years without kicking any members out that fall short of the new entry requirements or is there something else behind this

 

[Lister1987]

It's the 'License to Practice" thing all over again, SparkSafe have a start on it but it would need industry wide adoption AND public awareness.

 

[nicebutdim]

Back in the day when I was at college the 3 year day release course to get your A and B certs covered virtually all the aspects of electrical work from domestic through to industrial. My apprenticeship was mainly industrial and commercial with very very little domestic work but it didn't mean I could do domestic work

@Vortigern expanded on the point I was trying to make and plenty of apprentices will spend the entirety of their training doing domestic work. When it comes to compiling their portfolio they're trying to find anything acceptable to complete it. Theory will have been learnt, but jumping into industrial work would pose an initial challenge and they certainly wouldn't be ready to do so unassisted.

Very few apprentices will now be lucky enough to gian the sort of broad experience that might once have been common. Similarly an industrial electrician, who is unlucky enough to find themselves unemployed, might find domestic work to be something of a challenge. They'd certainly be knowledgable about electrical theory, but lacking the sort of experience that might help with cable routing etc.