Eicr question

[rapidrich]

If a shower was fitted 15 years back and had no rcd what cat would it be on a eicr

 

[Octopus]

None. You are not testing to the 17th regs.

 

[DurhamSparky]

code 3 ...... improvement if no supp bonding in bathroom!

 

[rapidrich]

That's what I've all ways thought but a sparky has gone to do some wrk there and said it should be cat 2

 

[DurhamSparky]

i can see why he has done that!! as MOST showers stipulate protection by RCD...

end of the day the PIR is based on what you deem safe/unsafe.... nobodys decisions or suggestions should influence YOUR decision

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Well if there is no supp bonding and that was required to limit the different potentials of exposed metalwork then this is potentially dangerous so I would code it as a C2 unless there was an RCD fitted to all circuits in the bathroom and main bonding was present.
What you have to watch for here IMO is that while the electrical installation (fuseboard etc) maybe as they were when installed, most often the bathroom has had a make over -during which the supp bonding was not re-installed. In this case the person ordering the work has a choice re-instigate the supp bonding or upgrade board (and bonding).

From 4. Periodic inspection of existing domestic and similar installations : Electrical Safety CouncilQ4.4
What Classification Code should be given if it is found that there is no supplementary bonding in a bathroom having extraneous- or exposed-conductive-parts, and the conditions given in Regulation 701.415.2 for its omission are not met?
[FONT=&amp]Classification Code C2. Where the presence of supplementary bonding cannot be confirmed by inspection, it may be verified by a continuity test (< 0.05 ?)[/FONT]

 

[rapidrich]

My thoughts are its safe but not to current standards I.e not as safe as it could be

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Not according to the ESC Electrical Safety Council
From 4. Periodic inspection of existing domestic and similar installations : Electrical Safety CouncilQ4.4
What Classification Code should be given if it is found that there is no supplementary bonding in a bathroom having extraneous- or exposed-conductive-parts, and the conditions given in Regulation 701.415.2 for its omission are not met?
[FONT=&amp]Classification Code C2. Where the presence of supplementary bonding cannot be confirmed by inspection, it may be verified by a continuity test (< 0.05 ?)[/FONT]

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...-forum/66428-eicr-question.html#ixzz2AFI0i151
​

 

[martinxxxxxx]

That is the official guidance - if you do not follow it and someone is killed - you better have your PIA up to date

 

[Octopus]

Not according to the ESC Electrical Safety Council
From 4. Periodic inspection of existing domestic and similar installations : Electrical Safety CouncilQ4.4
What Classification Code should be given if it is found that there is no supplementary bonding in a bathroom having extraneous- or exposed-conductive-parts, and the conditions given in Regulation 701.415.2 for its omission are not met?
Classification Code C2. Where the presence of supplementary bonding cannot be confirmed by inspection, it may be verified by a continuity test (< 0.05 ?)

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...-forum/66428-eicr-question.html#ixzz2AFI0i151
​

The OP didn't mention supplementary bonding!!

 

[DurhamSparky]

i know... i just stated my opinion on the codes!

 

[martinxxxxxx]

But he is talking about Regulation 701.415.2 and this is conditional on whether the install meets the regs in force at the time - so it is pertinent that the Supp boning should be met - if it is then it is a C3 possibly if not it is certainly a C2 according to the advice from the esc

 

[Guest55]

None. You are not testing to the 17th regs.

what are you testing to ?
;-D

 

[rapidrich]

Bonding is fine my question was just regarding the rcd thanx

 

[martinxxxxxx]

If the bonding is fine then if it is is someone own home a C3 if it is a rented accommodation C2

 

[somersetsparks]

c3 then IMO

 

[somersetsparks]

If the bonding is fine then if it is is someone own home a C3 if it is a rented accommodation C2

How can you differentiate the 2, its a C3 in my book, you could install new it like it in 2008, it hasnt become 'potentially dangerous' since then. Bonding is in place. RCDs are no magic bullett

 

[martinxxxxxx]

When you do an inspection the reason for the inspection and the type of use of the building and the users has to be taken in to account. Landlords have a duty of care under law towards their tenants.
The ESC is calling on landlords to ensure that there is adequate RCD protection in all of their properties as fewer than half of UK households (49%) have adequate RCD protection and the number drops to just 30% for private tenants. A Residual Current Device (RCD) is a life-saving device that protects against dangerous electric shock and reduces the risk of electrical fires. Plug-in RCDs should be used if there is no RCD in the fusebox.

Press Releases News : Electrical Safety Council

Extract

By law, landlords must ensure electrical installations and wiring are maintained in a safe condition throughout the tenancy . And tenants should feel obliged to flag electrical problems as soon as they appear, as well as maintain any electrical items they bring into the house. The consequences for not understanding obligations can be serious. If a landlord is found to be negligent over electrical safety it can lead to prosecution, with a fine of up to £5,000 on each count or imprisonment. This may come as a shock to the 38% of landlords who don’t believe there are any penalties for failing to maintain safety.

​

 

[Guest55]

Its code 3 regardless of bathroom bonding or not.
From the ESC EICR guidlines giving examples of C3's ;

"Absence of RCD protection in a location containing a bath or shower where satisfactory suplementary bonding is present "

Its all there , clear as crystal but nobody could be arsed looking the facts up properly.
Apart from me ;-)

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Please may we see the link to this information

 

[Deservices]

Its code 3 regardless of bathroom bonding or not.
From the ESC EICR guidlines giving examples of C3's ;

"Absence of RCD protection in a location containing a bath or shower where satisfactory suplementary bonding is present "

Its all there , clear as crystal but nobody could be arsed looking the facts up properly.
Apart from me ;-)

Doesn't that say its code 3 if it has bonding?

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Where is the link to this please Biff, I can't find it on their site. Or are you looking at an old leaflet?

 

[Guest55]

Where is the link to this please Biff, I can't find it on their site. Or are you looking at an old leaflet?

Why ? dont you believe me lol ?

Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council

guide no. 4 , bottom of page 15.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Deservices - Do you have a link to it please?

 

[Guest55]

Doesn't that say its code 3 if it has bonding?

yes.
and its still code 3 if it doesnt.
but its code 2 for missing bonding if all bathroom circuits arent rcd'd

 

[martinxxxxxx]

But that says the opposite of what you are saying
It says exactly what I have said that it does depend on whether the Supp bonding is present

 

[martinxxxxxx]

So what I originally said is correct, there is also a case for a higher coding for rented accommodation don't you think?

 

[Guest55]

not really.
maybe more frequent insections tho.

 

[Guest55]

But that says the opposite of what you are saying
It says exactly what I have said that it does depend on whether the Supp bonding is present

good grief man , i'm trying to assist you.
it says nothing of the sort.
put whatever you like on the report.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

You not assisting anyone by misquoting a document.
I was assisting with Properly Sourced and linked information quoted verbatim

 

[martinxxxxxx]

On my reports I will only put things that can be justified by the industry advice or the regs. I will be able to say where an opinion came from. I think this is important myself.


You Said
Its code 3 regardless of bathroom bonding or not.
From the ESC EICR guidlines giving examples of C3's ;

​

But the document you referred to said

Absence of RCD protection for circuits of a
location containing a bath or shower where
satisfactory supplementary bonding is present

Good greif man if you are gonna be arsed to look it up - quote it right too!

 

[somersetsparks]

I would be wound up if someone gave a c2 to my non rcd'd shower. As I say it was compliant to install up until 4 years ago, it's not 'potentially dangerous'. That's just drumming for work imo Supplementary bonding is an adequate.
What did we do before these wonder rcd's came about!

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Yes but do you rent your house out?
If you did the Landlord and Tenant Act plus the insurance for letting might make you feel it is better to have the place kept to the latest editions of the wiring regs. Professional landlords in my experience want to be watertight when it comes to insurance

 

[martinxxxxxx]

What did we do before these wonder rcd's came about!

Some people died - so they made them put them on the lawnmowers - then the downstairs, then the upstairs then the lights.
Some call it progress others wonder if health and safety hasn't gone mad - but they are mostly those who have not lost loved ones to electrical accidents.

 

[Des 56]

Rcds are nice little items for giving that little bit of extra back up (TT excepted), however, well constructed and maintained electrical systems are the best target

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Rcds are nice little items for giving that little bit of extra back up (TT excepted), however, well constructed and maintained electrical systems are the best target

I think the (TT Excepted) gives the game away here.
They provide additional protection against electric shocks - over and above what even the best designed electrical system can achieve without them.
They are not an excuse for poor design, however if main bonding is in place, and the system is properly maintained and constructed, it is well accepted that supplementary bonding may be omitted.
That is the point of having the test of whether RCD is a required in the latest regs page 199, 701.415.2

If you are auguring that the we should return to the 15th editions or something - actually that's not what you are suggesting is it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

That's what I've all ways thought but a sparky has gone to do some wrk there and said it should be cat 2

it int a 2....you base an EICR on what was compliant AT THE TIME OF INSTALL....

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I am guessing you have not read any of the responses so far

But you are correct as long as it fulfils the requirements of 701.415.2

 

[dagrat]

I agree with martinxxxx here. The best practice guide recommends that where there is no rcd protection and no supplementary bonding then it definitely is a C2.
But remember to carry out a continuity test to check whether there is supplementary bonding or not.

Yes the test is carried out to check compliance with regs at time of install and anything which is not to current regs is a C3. However don't forget that the requirement for supplementary bonding in the bathroom was still a requirement in the previous editions of Bs 7671

 

[somersetsparks]

Lets be clear, on an EICR.

Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C3 providing proper supplementary bonding is in place
Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C2 if no supplementary bonding is in place
Cables buried above 50mm in a Wall attract C3

I always check supplementary bonding is proper and covers all points including radiators etc. if necessary - Readings should be 0.05 or below.

So a bathroom wired to the 16th could easily attract 4 C3's

A C2 for a shower is over zealous if supplementary bonding is in place.
I have worked testing for a social landlord, they would never ask for RCDS on all showers regardless, the cost could be huge for virtually no gain in safety. They will insist on enclosed bathroom fittings, even if outside of zones.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Lets be clear, on an EICR.

Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C3 providing proper supplementary bonding is in place
Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C2 if no supplementary bonding is in place
Cables buried above 50mm in a Wall attract C3

I always check supplementary bonding is proper and covers all points including radiators etc. if necessary - Readings should be 0.05 or below.

So a bathroom wired to the 16th could easily attract 4 C3's

Correct
Supplementary Bonding
Supplementary bonding has been a significant feature of the 16th edition of BS 7671 but this has now changed with the introduction of the 17th edition.
For new installations or alterations / additions in a location containing a bath or shower, supplementary bonding will not be required if:
 The disconnection times required by Section 411 of BS 7671 are met, and
 All circuits are protected by RCD’s having the characteristics required by 415.1.1, and
 The building has protective equipotential bonding in accordance with 411.3.1.2, and
 All extraneous-conductive parts of the location are effectively connected to the protective bonding. (See note below)
Note: Regulation 415.2.2 states that where doubt exists regarding the effectiveness of supplementary equipotential bonding, it shall be confirmed that the resistance R between simultaneously accessible conductive parts and extraneous conductive parts fulfils the following condition:
R ≤ 50V  a for a.c. systems
By example, using a 30mA RCD (Required by 415.1.1)
R ≤ 50V  30mA = 1667 ohms
Where supplementary bonding is required, Regulation 701.415.2 requires that the protective conductor (cpc) of each circuit entering the room containing a bath or shower, be connected to the extraneous-conductive parts by local supplementary equipotential bonding conductors complying with Regulation group 544.2.
This is carried out to prevent the occurrence of voltages between any such parts being of such magnitude as could cause danger of electric shock.
Automatic disconnection of supply
Where the protective measure ‘automatic disconnection of supply’ is used, additional protection by a residual current device, with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA is required for all circuits in locations containing a bath or shower.
Practically this means that every circuit entering a bathroom should be protected by an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA. Careful consideration should be given to how circuits are divided, to eliminate the problems with unwanted tripping of RCD’s.
SUMMARY
With a Continuity tester on the Ohms setting, test between each metal pipe that enters the bathroom (Extraneous conductive parts) and the circuit protective conductor (cpc) of each electrical circuit in the bathroom.
If the reading obtained is less than 1667ohms and all circuits are protected by 30mA RCD’s then no Supplementary Bonding is required.
If any of the above requirements cannot be met, Supplementary Bonding must be installed.