Electric vans

[Ian Mills]

The other thing is where is all money lost on fuel tax going to come from?

 

[nicebutdim]

A Tesla passed me on the motorway yesterday - not exactly a typical sight in NI.

It occured to me that EVs are probably well suited to this country as there's nowhere you could go that doesn't fall within the vehicle's range - at least not without leaving the country or driving into the sea.

 

[pc1966]

The other thing is where is all money lost on fuel tax going to come from?

Us.

It is always us, just by one means or other.

 

[rapparee]

I wouldn't even consider purchasing one due to the mileage. Is that figure real world driving also?

I'm waiting for hydrogen to break through

 

[UNG]

The other thing is where is all money lost on fuel tax going to come from?

Once EV's are the norm the preferential treatment they get now will be removed and they will get taxed
When they tried to introduce CNG vehicles you could get a home filling point it had a separate meter so HMRC could charge the VAT on the vehicle fuel at 20% instead of the normal 5% domestic use VAT
EV's will be on the HMRC radar at some time in the future without a doubt but at the moment it is a fragile industry that is being IMO nurtured for a future revenue stream
With regard to the CNG VAT charges, I never looked into the costs of charging an EV at a service station or other public charging point as to what VAT rate is charged on the electricity used as they are commercial I assume it is 20%, will we have to get a separate home meter for home EV charging in the future so 20% VAT can be charged the same as vehicle fuel currently

 

[rapparee]

A Tesla passed me on the motorway yesterday - not exactly a typical sight in NI.

It occured to me that EVs are probably well suited to this country as there's nowhere you could go that doesn't fall within the vehicle's range - at least not without leaving the country or driving into the sea.

You know that Tesla is mulling over the idea of setting up a factory in Derry. In the old Ballykelly Army Barracks

They were originally going to set up in Germany, but the site is too small and they wanted to clear some forest but the Green Party over there won't allow them.

They were also looking to build in Bristol but they are uneasy about Brexit so the idea of Derry, being half in and half out of the EU is appealing

 

[Mike Johnson]

What I have never seen published (not that I have looked) is the mile/Kw cost compared against mpg of course it depends if you have solar power to call upon or you take your power straight off the grid, my buddy with the new electric Kia put 4Kw of panels on his house at the beginning of the high tariff being available, he gets somewhere in the region of £1200.00/pa back from the national grid, but runs his car and pool heating from the provider, I should have listened to him when he first mooted putting them up.
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I'm waiting for hydrogen to break through

I get that with Currys Indian type not high street.

 

[nicebutdim]

You know that Tesla is mulling over the idea of setting up a factory in Derry. In the old Ballykelly Army Barracks

They were originally going to set up in Germany, but the site is too small and they wanted to clear some forest but the Green Party over there won't allow them.

They were also looking to build in Bristol but they are uneasy about Brexit so the idea of Derry, being half in and half out of the EU is appealing

Hadn't heard this, but certainly would be good for the area - manufacturing set up on the basis of a sound business case (instead of subsidies) would likely lead to long term employment, rather than rounds of redundencies when free money stops flowing.

I suspect much of the revenue would flow to ROI, due to their more appealing corporate tax rules, but I don't think anyone would object if jobs were created for the north west.

 

[Ian Mills]

What I have never seen published (not that I have looked) is the mile/Kw cost compared against mpg of course it depends if you have solar power to call upon or you take your power straight off the grid, my buddy with the new electric Kia put 4Kw of panels on his house at the beginning of the high tariff being available, he gets somewhere in the region of £1200.00/pa back from the national grid, but runs his car and pool heating from the provider, I should have listened to him when he first mooted putting them up.
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I get that with Currys Indian type not high street.

It cost about 4p per mile charged at home against 11p for 50mpg car, but as tax is 2/3 on diesel and 5% on electric if you adjusted for that price would be about the same,

 

[Mike Johnson]

Interesting Ian, at what sort of range are we talking about, electric car milage seems to be very optimistic and not real world, but diesel cars have been around long enough that we all know our true milage with our individual driving styles, I wonder what the Kw charge will eventually be at the road side and not at home?

 

[Ian Mills]

Interesting Ian, at what sort of range are we talking about, electric car milage seems to be very optimistic and not real world, but diesel cars have been around long enough that we all know our true milage with our individual driving styles, I wonder what the Kw charge will eventually be at the road side and not at home?

This is the big question my customer with a Tesla gets free charging at service stations but he was one of there early customers and new customers do not get the same deal, but think they get so many KW per year,normally I think it might be in the range of 6 to 8p per mile. I looked at the idea of a electric van but would not work for me as I can do 2 to 3 hundred KM a day if I have a bad day and a problem other end of where I am working, also do not have the sort of turnover to cover cost.
Just whilst on point of electric cars, have had a problem with the charging on a Zoe, Customer said sometimes when they plug the charger in it does not charge, other times it does, turned out it was a poor earth rod, as ground dried out the resistance increases it must have just been on the edge of working or not, I had not thought about it but a good earth is very important in charging a car as the car is insulated by the tyres, if there is a fault the car will become live, so the system has some test if the earth is not good it cuts the charger out, fitted a second 2M rod and all being okay

 

[ipf]

I had the thrill of riding in this little beauty, a 1959 Ford Prefect that was converted to battery power by my neighbourhood auto electrician, Mr Doring. I recall (probably faultily) that it had 25 HP and a range of 40 miles. It was Sydney in ... err ... well a long time ago.

View attachment 59944

I remember riding in my dad's Prefect.......3 gears and, for then, it went like a bomb. He'd never have swapped that for a milk float.

 

[Timbo]

EV's have got a long way to go before they would be any use for me. I can travel up to 600 miles a day sometimes.
In July I drove 5000 miles in the van at an average of 40mpg (VW Transporter T6.1 auto).
Can't see EV's coming anywhere near what I need. Don't have the luxury of being able to stop for hours to charge up.

 

[pc1966]

One solution to the whole charging issue was to have replaceable battery packs of a standard configuration. So drive in to "petrol station" and robot replaces the battery from underside or similar. 5 min to, in effect, recharge and off you go. No need for a home charger in most cases. Also deals with the whole replacement battery cost as basically your charge/swap covers the power pack.

Of course that would mean some standardisation between rival car companies and investment in infrastructure, both of which seem a little unlikely any time soon

 

[snowhead]

One solution to the whole charging issue was to have replaceable battery packs of a standard configuration. So drive in to "petrol station" and robot replaces the battery from underside or similar. 5 min to, in effect, recharge and off you go.

Nice thought, but no chance.
As you've said that would need agreement, that's not going to happen.
Every manufacturer uses a different configuration of batteries / voltages and the fitment to a car is unique to a specific model even within the same manufacturer.
And changing in a few minutes is out of the question have you seen what they look like.
Not to mention the different types of cooling they all use /will be using.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

The biggest infrastructure problem is the DNO cables in the ground. Without a major network upgrade I don't see how it can stand a massive increase in load that EV charging will present. Most of the network was installed between the 1930's and 50's and is mainly 16mm² and 25mm² 4c cable, it's interesting looking at the DNO network plans to see how many properties are served off one 16mm² cable along a street and diversity if you can call it that is certainly pushed beyond limits and EV charging will probably be the straw that breaks it's back

Load throttling is the way. Chargers are now using ct clamps to lower the charging load if the house is using more. You can it a charger to a house with 60amp fuse with risking the dno fuse blowing. The wonders of ct clamps.
There is capacity in the network if used correctly.

 

[MJPD29]

You know that Tesla is mulling over the idea of setting up a factory in Derry. In the old Ballykelly Army Barracks

They were originally going to set up in Germany, but the site is too small and they wanted to clear some forest but the Green Party over there won't allow them.

They were also looking to build in Bristol but they are uneasy about Brexit so the idea of Derry, being half in and half out of the EU is appealing

Would be great to see. Couldn't go any worse than Delorean did anyway.

 

[nicebutdim]

Would be great to see. Couldn't go any worse than Delorean did anyway.

I've never liked inward investment schemes as companies tend to use them simply as a means of subsidising production costs. When the money dries up, costs increase and jobs are shed in favour of cheaper labour elsewhere in the world.

Seagate has been an exception to that rule, but I believe that's to do with their founder having a link to the area.

I'd rather see such funds used to invest in local enterprise as company founders will have motivation to ensure jobs remain in the country. Even if such companies go to the wall, at least it would be less likely that the money had been funnelled out of the country.

 

[pc1966]

Load throttling is the way. Chargers are now using ct clamps to lower the charging load if the house is using more. You can it a charger to a house with 60amp fuse with risking the dno fuse blowing. The wonders of ct clamps.
There is capacity in the network if used correctly.

The problem is all those chargers have to be linked, not just CT on the house supply, but back to the local substation to monitor the overall loads on the cable(s). Remember the typical past assumption for house load diversity when sizing the substation and cables is around 3-5kW, not 14kW or more.

So in that sense technology can reduce the risk dramatically, but people have to get used to the idea that their "1 hour" charger might take several hours or even overnight when lots of others are trying to use the supply for EV charge, cooking, showers, etc.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Having a 2nd house in the South of France is hardly typical ffs.

That made me laugh a lot.

 

[Ian Mills]

Load throttling is the way. Chargers are now using ct clamps to lower the charging load if the house is using more. You can it a charger to a house with 60amp fuse with risking the dno fuse blowing. The wonders of ct clamps.
There is capacity in the network if used correctly.

Load limiters are used a bit in France as a house might have anything from a 15A supply or a 3 phase 15A per phase up to 60A mono phase or 45A 3 phase they work well but I think we need a clever system using smart meters and wifi so,chargers can be turned on and off to balance out load on the system, by electric company's I think the most that can be done is maybe 20% all electric and 30 to 40% plugin hybrids still think changing heating to electric is a easier than changing your car to run on electric, but they is no money savings there and no green brownie points

 

[Mike Johnson]

DPG Quote: "Having a second home in the south of France is not typical"

happyhippydad Quote : "that made me laugh a lot"

Makes me think back to how much you guys charge for your service's and to quote one of the expression used on here a lot "The race to the bottom"

 

[UNG]

Load throttling is the way. Chargers are now using ct clamps to lower the charging load if the house is using more. You can it a charger to a house with 60amp fuse with risking the dno fuse blowing. The wonders of ct clamps.
There is capacity in the network if used correctly.

While load throttling might help it is not the single household that is the big issue, it is multiple households on the already overstretched DNO cable network.
You say "There is capacity in the network if used correctly" I'm assuming you are referring the the network cabling that has in a lot of cases been in the ground for around 80 or so years.
Chatting with some DNO guys a while back after a major power cut as a result of a cable failure and they were saying that it is not that unusual and they are getting cable failures more often because the existing cables can't cope with the normal load even before an EV charging boom

The problem is all those chargers have to be linked, not just CT on the house supply, but back to the local substation to monitor the overall loads on the cable(s). Remember the typical past assumption for house load diversity when sizing the substation and cables is around 3-5kW, not 14kW or more.

So in that sense technology can reduce the risk dramatically, but people have to get used to the idea that their "1 hour" charger might take several hours or even overnight when lots of others are trying to use the supply for EV charge, cooking, showers, etc.

I think you have hit the nail on head, the DNO's diversity would probably be ok during the day but during the overnight charging period it would be way under what is needed to service EV charging.

With most home charging limited to 3 - 7 Kw recharging a 50Kw battery is going to need
a minimum of 6 - 7 hours charge so any sort of smart charging would have to account for this so you have a fully charged vehicle the following day then to put a spanner into that what about the 2 or 3 car households.

Talking to one of my customers recently and a club she belongs to acquired some land adjacent their playing fields to build a car park they have been told for planning permission they need to include EV charging for 1 in 10 of the proposed spaces to comply with some goverment legislation (100 spaces proposed) having looked into it a bit deeper the legislation requires that the infrastructure, which I think could just be ducts has to be installed so EV charging could be extended to 1 in 5 spaces. This car park would only be used at weekends and a few evenings per week and locked when the club is not being used. It is not clear what charging capacity has to be available but if all the points are used at the same time there will be little or no diversity to be applied to the new supply needed and I think it will be an interesting conversation with the DNO as to whether the local network could support this

 

[snowhead]

It is not clear what charging capacity has to be available but if all the points are used at the same time there will be little or no diversity to be applied to the new supply needed and I think it will be an interesting conversation with the DNO as to whether the local network could support this

It works the same as P.V.
The DNO own the Network, if it can't support what the customer is asking for then the customer can't have it, unless they pay towards the upgrade of the network

So if the network won't support the potential load of E.V then that means no car park unless they pay possibly 10's of thousands or even hundreds of thousands towards the upgrades.

 

[UNG]

It works the same as P.V.
The DNO own the Network, if it can't support what the customer is asking for then the customer can't have it, unless they pay towards the upgrade of the network

So if the network won't support the potential load of E.V then that means no car park unless they pay possibly 10's of thousands or even hundreds of thousands towards the upgrades.

I'm well aware of the procedure you ask for a supply the DNO responds with the options and the telephone numbers then you have to find the compromise that both parties are happy with
Done it quite a few times over the years

 

[Ian Mills]

This looks like a good option and think it is the sort of thing we will all be driving in 10 years

View: https://youtu.be/G508L0swhNk

 

[freddo]

This looks like a good option and think it is the sort of thing we will all be driving in 10 years

Interesting, but too small and I still can't get past the price, well out of my reach. I was surprised at the weight too, though that should have been obvious as it's filled with the batteries. I get the feeling I'd be using the engine more than the batteries alone to save the hassle of finding somewhere to charge it and then waiting for it to charge.

 

[bigspark17]

Glad to see my op has generated alot of responses in the subject. However i have decied to go with a bran new vivaro L2 120ps diesel as i feel more comfortable than taking a risk in the unknown market. Hope next time i buy new in 4/5yrs i will have enough confidence to buy electric.

 

[freddo]

However i have decied to go with a bran new vivaro L2 120ps diesel

Let us know what you think, I drive a 19 reg 1.6L vivaro and it's junk. One of the poorest designed vehicles I have ever operated. They have got so much wrong it's unbelievable, I get the feeling the designers have never driven a vehicle before. The 1.6L engine is a bit small, it struggles with hills. Uphill means dropping down 2 gears, and downhill there is no engine braking like you would get in a normal vehicle so you need to use the brakes a lot. When driving you need to change gears far more often than my car or the previous 3 vans I've had. At 50MPH it demands you drive in 6th gear. And the less said about the hill start 'assist' feature the better.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Most modern (normal) cars do not have engine braking it improves the published consumption figures, in fact my current (sorry) vehicle disconnects the drive train on the overrun.

 

[Ian Mills]

Interesting, but too small and I still can't get past the price, well out of my reach. I was surprised at the weight too, though that should have been obvious as it's filled with the batteries. I get the feeling I'd be using the engine more than the batteries alone to save the hassle of finding somewhere to charge it and then waiting for it to charge.

I do like the look of it and think it will last a long time but like you a bit small and expensive, I can not understand why has it got a max range on the engine option or is that just that you will need to refill with petrol. But saying that I think maybe not this but the same sort of hybrid is what we will all end up driving after 2040 when straight petrol and diesel are band, Top gear some years ago had a bit about electric cars where they built something up with a diesel generator in the back (as a bit of a joke) but looks same idea is being used on this

 

[Zerax]

Glad to see my op has generated alot of responses in the subject. However i have decied to go with a bran new vivaro L2 120ps diesel as i feel more comfortable than taking a risk in the unknown market. Hope next time i buy new in 4/5yrs i will have enough confidence to buy electric.

I'm still wavering towards an electric one... but I think that's more driven by personal motives and the marketing angle of installing EV charging whilst using an EV.

 

[nicebutdim]

Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but Youtube thought I should watch this and couldn't help thinking back to the EV discussion here.

 

[pc1966]

Just looked on the Zap-Map here:

Understanding electric vehicle connector types | Charging guide - Zapmap

How long does it take to charge an electric car? Learn about charging standards, compatibility, and make informed decisions for your EV charging needs.

www.zap-map.com

Looks like there are at least 7 different connectors in use. WTF, would anyone accept needing 7 different types of petrol at each petrol station?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Evangelist of electric cars/vans will never admit there may be a problem with what they have bought ?, but then that applies to all of us with something we have paid a lot for.

 

[Zerax]

Yes... there is definitely an issue with standardisation of connector... similar to VHS vs Betamax... as well as several other issues. However, things are changing in this new industry... the same as every other new industry.

But to address the specific query here... you need to remember that at present, only 5% ish of EV charging will happen at public chargers... the rest is done at home where different connectors are not an issue.

As I'm sure I've said frequently... you need to look at what works for the 80% of cases... not what works for the 1% of cases... 'low hanging fruit' or 'Pareto' principle.

 

[nicebutdim]

It's inevitable that we'll all have to drive Electric Vehicles in the near future - at least until a better option becomes viable. The rights and wrongs are as important as the fact that politicians are moving in this direction and they make the laws.

I see an untapped niche in the market for double insulated jerry cans.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It's inevitable that we'll all have to drive Electric Vehicles in the near future - at least until a better option becomes viable. The rights and wrongs are as important as the fact that politicians are moving in this direction and they make the laws.

I see an untapped niche in the market for double insulated jerry cans.

In the future we will not be able to drive anywhere the whole world will be covered in wind farms and solar panels.

 

[pc1966]

But to address the specific query here... you need to remember that at present, only 5% ish of EV charging will happen at public chargers... the rest is done at home where different connectors are not an issue.

Unfortunately I think the majority of households do not have the option of home charging as they have no driveway. If you live in a block of flats, or even on a typical street of terraced houses where you have no reserved parking space (and every fsker seems to have 2 cars per household so finding a space is a lottery), you are out of options.

Just now the "early adopters" are in the upper income range and have home charge options, how to scale that to the majority remains to be seen.

Sure EV will be the future one way or another, but for now it is simply not an option for me and others in my position as (a) I have no home charge option, and (b) my main long-distance destinations don't either (as well as the round-trip being worryingly close to a typical EV's range).

 

[nicebutdim]

In the future we will not be able to drive anywhere the whole world will be covered in wind farms and solar panels.

I note that a recent Dutch study concluded that powering their country solely by means of wind and solar would require a land area 1.8x greater than Holland.

 

[pirate]

I live in a flat. Every flat has a garage, all of which form the ground floor of the block, and all have basic pwer and light installed. Each also has a parking space in front of the garage. However, most modern cars are too big to get into the garages. Only one neighbour uses her garage for its intended purpose and she drives a small car, a Toyota Aygo. Only one proprietor has an electric car, but of course he has to charge it while it is parked outside his garage. I suspect he had a non-compliant charging setup (he's moved away now, but his flat was full of dodgy electrics, some of which I have posted pics of previously) and there is no evidence of what charger he had. I suppose I might buy an electric car of some sort next time as my daily mileage is normally minimal nowadays, but i will hold on to my current diesel car as long as possible as it gives me a range of over 500 miles on a tankful, and I like that flexibilty for weekends away, not that I'm doing much of that at the moment. I would struggle to visit my sister in Ardnamurchan in an electric vehicle as there are very few, if any, charging points on the route, and she doesn't have a charger either. EVs may be suitable for many, but certainly not for me.

 

[pc1966]

Were it not for the serious problem of home charging for me, an EV would be great as my typical mileage per day is around 30 at most so no range problems (other than trips to family where the round-trip and no remote charging point, is around 180 miles).

 

[freddo]

I also don't do many miles, the main issue for me is the cost of the car!

 

[Mike Johnson]

A fair few leased electric cars are coming to the end of the leasing period and will be available on the second hand market, the only thing I would be wary of would be the battery life left, but I don't think it will bother me in my lifetime. ?

 

[Zerax]

EVs may be suitable for many, but certainly not for me.

Exactly what I said... EVs work well for many many many people... but NOT all. But that's only the current position... as EVs become more mainstream we'll slowly see many of the obstacles to ownership being overcome... it's all very normal for any new technology.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Conversely EVs don't work for many, many, many more people, this technology will be forced onto the rest of us in the future and they will become mainstream, but at a cost to our countryside that we will never get back, the whole side of a hill disappeared into a river in County Down recently because the pine forest had been cut down to make way for a wind farm, the local councils objections on the development to the APB due to environmental issues was ignored and the planning permission was fast tracked as Strategic Infrastructure, bypassing the local council and going directly to "An Board Pleanala" who approved the project, this is just part of the ongoing Meenbog project which is still ongoing despite this ecological disaster to the river, its this sort of news that is never made public on the other side of the ongoing drive to make us all use more electricity than at the moment we can't produce ecologically sufficiently without destroying our countryside.

 

[nicebutdim]

*Co Donegal

It was a huge peat slip. The great irony is that a lot of former bog land has been deforested, at great expense, in an effort at restoring peat bogs.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Yes in total 182 acres which ran into the River Mournebeg a tributary of the river Derg, part of the river Foyle all areas of Conservation (SAC)