Electrician and QS on trial for death of woman

[rompling]

I Know its been posted about before but it seems the trial has begun ....
Very sad
Emma Shaw electrocuted 'because electrician was UNQUALIFIED' | Mail Online

 

[tazz]

In other words back to the crazy 15th edition, and bond any think thats metal

 

[Guest111]

In other words back to the crazy 15th edition, and bond any think thats metal

Oi what was wrong with the 15th? I trained to that if you dont mind,back then we had a simple philosophy "if it don't move bond it,if it moves find out why". lol

 

[tazz]

But back to these fantastic rcds....really the idea is that this poor women on passing 30mA, should have tripped this rcd in milli seconds....if all all bonding and initial earthing is in place.....or an I missing something basic here...I am getting old...lol

 

[Badged01]

Also to add why isn't the boss of the company in court?? .

Because the QS (the assessed competent and trained electrical supervisor) is discharging his duties for him, checking all the work has been done correctly and signing all relevent paperwork to this effect! The bosses shoulders have sloped .......

 

[Badged01]

But back to these fantastic rcds....really the idea is that this poor women on passing 30mA, should have tripped this rcd in milli seconds....if all all bonding and initial earthing is in place.....or an I missing something basic here...I am getting old...lol

That would be my understanding too, if fitted and working!. Though even assuming it tripped somewhere around the 30mA mark the human body reacts differently to it depending on the person. 40mA might not bother me but 20mA may kill someone else ........

 

[tazz]

That would be my understanding too, if fitted and working!. Though even assuming it tripped somewhere around the 30mA mark the human body reacts differently to it depending on the person. 40mA might not bother me but 20mA may kill someone else ........

Hence the reason we test rcds in milli seconds.....I personally think the timing is one very important factor of rcds

 

[southsea1201]

I think we may find out an RCD was involved, 30mA is way to high, 10mA would have deffo saved her life. As she was kneeling it is fair to assume letting go was going to be a problem. Really highlights the fact 10 mA RCBO's may be the future in a domestic situation.

 

[Guest111]

As we are taught there are a variety of factors that can affect it,if a person is wet then they will be more vulnerable to a current flowing through their body plus theoretically is it not possible for an extremely high current to flow in those few milliseconds before an RCD can react?All the tests that decided on the figures for RCD values are based on theory,they never actually did any test on humans did they?so we don't actually know what the safe values are for certain.

 

[sparks1234]

Very unfortunate incident, I'm sure there are many other scenarios which could lead to many different injuries but they haven't come to light because no-one has been hurt. As previously said, there is nothing to say this would have come to light in testing and perhaps the installer has been unlucky but I'm sure the courts will decide.
I liken it to the guy driving on the M40 a couple of years ago that fell asleep at the wheel of his can and ended up across a railway track and killing 2 people on the train, most other people get away with it as nothing so serious happens, he was just unlucky and ended up inside, who knows how many other screws are through steel studs, bring back timber.

 

[Badged01]

I think there has been a study done somewhere (maybe not on humans but feel free to use terrorists!) that suggested 10mA everybody could tolerate and 40mA was the maximum. Depending on the age of the person, physical condition, environmental factors such as water etc ........

30mA was then chosen as the setting that best compromised safety of the person(?) v nuisance tripping if set at 10mA.

 

[tazz]

As we are taught there are a variety of factors that can affect it,if a person is wet then they will be more vulnerable to a current flowing through their body plus theoretically is it not possible for an extremely high current to flow in those few milliseconds before an RCD can react?All the tests that decided on the figures for RCD values are based on theory,they never actually did any test on humans did they?so we don't actually know what the safe values are for certain.

Fair comment.........don`t you think we have all had a bash at this, old and new, without slanging matches...I think this has been a constructive debate...!

 

[Badged01]

Fair comment.........don`t you think we have all had a bash at this, old and new, without slanging matches...I think this has been a constructive debate...!

I take it by that you mean the grumpy old gits havent logged on yet .....

 

[benji]

don,t think i,ve ever seen the metal studwork in a partition wall earthed

 

[tazz]

I take it by that you mean the grumpy old gits havent logged on yet .....

The grumpy old gits are skilled guys just set in there ways...give them good input...you`ll get good output...!

 

[tazz]

don,t think i,ve ever seen the metal studwork in a partition wall earthed

Has luck would have it, studwork wasn`t the main material used in the 70/80s wood was, other wised the 15th would have bonded it too

 

[PEG]

I take it by that you mean the grumpy old gits havent logged on yet .....

Neither grumpy,old or gittish...but am logged on...This debate brings to mind another problem regarding the frequent arguments we make regarding being competent. I do not know all the details regarding this case,but as everyone is happy to call one of the individuals,"an electrician",we can deduce he possessed the "proper" training,authorization etc. Yet he is still in the mire...I have often talked about the fact that apprenticeships,time-served,qualifications and certification,do NOT guarantee a standard of work. For instance,the fellow judged responsible for the gas explosion near me in Irlam a while ago,was all of the above. We have ALL seen supposedly pukka sparks,leave unbelievable set-ups in their wake...last week i visited an installation where an electrician had put a large 3ph submain a considerable distance,SWA to the PME (insufficient size) straight to the metal Db,linked in 16mm straight to a TT rod...all signed off. Now,if a "electrical trainee" had done that correctly,would that be better or worse? ..And just to prove my grumpiness,10Ma,30Ma...it is like the drink-drive limits,there are no "safe" limits on an RCD,just limits that make it safer...people have received fatal shocks from jump starting cars and fondling electric eels. :wheelchair:

 

[Guest111]

Fair comment.........don`t you think we have all had a bash at this, old and new, without slanging matches...I think this has been a constructive debate...!

Exactly! what a pleasant change to have an intelligent discussion without it deteriorating into a slagging off session.

 

[MDJ]

Because the QS (the assessed competent and trained electrical supervisor) is discharging his duties for him, checking all the work has been done correctly and signing all relevent paperwork to this effect! The bosses shoulders have sloped .......

I agree thats why the QS system is a joke really, the boss sent the mate to the JOB, I expect the QS had no idea he was sent there and just signed the paperwork, the QS is guilty of not checking the job out, the boss is guilty of sending an unqualified guy to the job and the mate guilty of forging the paperwork lol, all 3 should be in court.

 

[Guest111]

I take it by that you mean the grumpy old gits havent logged on yet .....

I'm one of the grumpy old git's but I'm working hard to be more sociable.lol

 

[Guest111]

I agree thats why the QS system is a joke really, the boss sent the mate to the JOB, I expect the QS had no idea he was sent there and just signed the paperwork, the QS is guilty of not checking the job out, the boss is guilty of sending an unqualified guy to the job and the mate guilty of forging the paperwork lol, all 3 should be in court.

Some of the inspections are dire to say the least,we recently had our house done,we rent from a large social landlord,anyway the guy was in and out in less than an hour. I couldn't follow him around all the time but he certainly didn't do half of what I'd have expected,put it this way I recently replaced all the sockets in the kitchen with stainless ones and he didn't remove one of them to make sure it had been done correctly.There seems to be a lot of this going on nowadays and from speaking to some of the lads in the social housing they are under a lot of pressure to do a certain amount of inspections per day,maybe the fact that their bosses push them should be brought up if ever there is a court case,we know being pushed isn't an excuse for poor work but in some cases it must certainly be a contributing factor.