Electrician caught signing off new install certs for non registered spark!!!

[BPW]

But it's they way it is now, DIY'er notifies, does work, LBAC get registered to text, except after 2013, LBAC don't send someone in, the client can find someone to come in, which makes it all more competitive and gives more people a chance at the work, not just NICEIC people on the LBAC list.

 

[Jonny66]

None, in fact I'm doing an Niceic 5 week dumbing down course it incorporates DIY technology and hands on DIY necromancy…

 

[Octopus]

April 2013 all this changes anyway, according to a Part P course i was on recently with NIC approved trainer...

DIY'er or non-registered electrician notify LABC, do the work and then get a registered electrician to com in and test, the DIY'er / Non-Reg sign the design and install and then the reg signs the test. LBAC out of the loop therefore.

This would be an interesting move, if true, as lots of sparks would discontinue their scheme membership and I'd be surprised if these Turkeys voted for Xmas.

That said would you want to sign off any Tom, Dick or Harry's work? Not sure I would.

 

[johnboy6083]

i work for a NICEIC registered firm. All of our work at the moment is Industrial. Im constantly testing and signing off others' work. If the crap hit the fan, and somebody was hurt, what would the difrenece be between this situation, and a domestic one?

 

[Knobhead]

Now what started this thread, someone taking payment for a signature I think?

Any changes along the lines that have been suggested will result in legitimising the payments.

 

[Guest55]

deleted.

 

[thekingiam]

lol diy ers knowing how to safely isolate supply, using wet neon screwdrivers to check if dead etc. I can imagine alot of beds being taken up at local hospitals but funeral directors will make a fortune! time to get my black suite out i think.

 

[SparkyJoe]

I know contractors who employ subbys who just make up test results. (and they know this) arseholes are everywhere.

 

[Badged01]

Unless you have been involved in the installation during construction I wouldnt be signing any inspection/testing of!

Although the 3 part Electrical Installation Certificate has someone to sign to say they designed the installation correctly to BS7671, someone else to sign to say they constructed (erected) it correctly to BS7671 your signing to say you've done the inspection/testing to BS7671.

As part of this inspection/testing you are signing to verify correct routing of cables and erection methods amongst other things. How you can do that unless everything is visible or you were there to see it being done? You take the risk if you are happy to sign that off!!

QS's signing off workers installations also beware ....... or am I missing something fundamental?

 

[imago]

I suppose the devil will be in the detail, but from the sound of the changes the sparks doing the testing will be carrying out a limited scope EICR. Doing that on a new install carries no more risk or responsibility than doing it on a 30 year old install. If the paperwork is completed correctly then the sparks signing it off won't be liable for anything beyond his tests and what can be visually inspected.

The problem looming for it will be the 'drive-by' EICR, and as that's currently a problem anyway then nothing's changing in that respect. So the only difference will be, as Tony pointed out, legitamising payments for testing someone else's work.

Will I do it? I doubt it, but not because of any objections I have, I just won't be competative on price as I'll be doing the full range of tests and checking inside all of the points. So Mr testinhalfanhour sparky will be way cheaper than I can be.

Will there be increased risks to life and property? I doubt it, the hard of thinking will allways come up with new and imaginative ways to screw up. So unless a piece of regulation is introduced which increases the percentage of thick or tight people in the population it will be business as usual from what I can see.

 

[Octopus]

The more I think about the 3rd party signing off work the less I worry about it. Round my way by far the worst electrics I see are ones done on extensions and thus are "covered" by LABC planning permissions rather than Part P sparkies.

If a non registered sparky does some work and gets his registered "mate" to sign it off the unregistered bod won't earn as much and the guy signing off will want paying, so there isn't likely to be much of a saving for the client.

In this senario, customer has issue, builder gets sparky back who says there isn't an issue, customer who has name of tester calls them back and they say the issue is down to the installer - neither want to help.

So who wins? Sounds like the situation we have now will continue.

 

[Guest55]

The more I think about the 3rd party signing off work the less I worry about it. Round my way by far the worst electrics I see are ones done on extensions and thus are "covered" by LABC planning permissions rather than Part P sparkies.

I think its a great idea as the testing can be done by experienced professionals like me who arent in a scheme instead of the usual muppets who have part p stickers plastered over their van as if its some sort of guarantee that they know what they're doing.
;-)

 

[MDJ]

instead of the usual muppets who have part p stickers plastered over their van as if its some sort of guarantee that they know what they're doing.
;-)

Hey I'm not a muppet, although I have been told I look like Beaker haha

 

[Octopus]

I think its a great idea as the testing can be done by experienced professionals like me who arent in a scheme instead of the usual muppets who have part p stickers plastered over their van as if its some sort of guarantee that they know what they're doing.
;-)

But the muppets who want to cut corners won't be employing the guys who do it by the book, they will employ the dodgy ones IMHO

 

[imago]

But the muppets who want to cut corners won't be employing the guys who do it by the book, they will employ the dodgy ones IMHO

So business as usual then.

 

[rmdes]

It's Is acceptable to sign of work these days as the new certificates have multiple sign of parts, one for designer, one for installer and one for inspector. So the installation electrician would sign the first two and you sign of the inspector box. You are no longer putting your name to the installation just simply confirming it is safe

 

[markc123]

Its a shame that our industry is in such a mess. They make these programs like cowboy builders and rogue traders.....and sadly were gonna be seeing more of it. I remember when becoming an electrician was a long and hard path, that took dedication and commitment, and becoming proud to be a sparks. Thats long gone now, its a micky mouse trade now that anyone can play with. Its a disgrace.

 

[Engineer54]

instead of the usual muppets who have part p stickers plastered over their van ;-)

Your just Jealous you haven't got one of those bright shinny stickers on Your van!! lol!! :angelsad2::bigcry:

 

[Paul.M]

The biggest winner from all these changes will be the Inland Revenue. No more none notified PIR/EICR's for an install via a back hander but an EIC sent to a local council office with the registered sparkys name on it. Of course the HMRC will not request this information from the labc and work out what the sparky has not paid tax on! Prices will increase, DIYers wont pay that much therefore they wont cert it.

Who makes up these rules, the Chuckle Brothers?

One is for certain, in the next 12-24 months our hands will be going deeper into our pockets.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Paul, since when have pir`s/EICRs been notifyable?...

 

[Paul.M]

Paul, since when have pir`s/EICRs been notifyable?...

Thats my point Glenn "No more none notified PIR/EICR's for an install" = all the new installs that should be notified with an EIC but get away with doing a PIR/EICR later down the line when customer wants to sell their house.

 

[edexlab]

The only thing a scheme like Niceic would do is a light slap on the wrist (got to think about next years subscription money) and they would probably void the insurance/warranty on that particular job.

I've been on a job this week which a local electrician wired a few weeks ago and was possibly the worst attempt by a spark I've seen!
I'm going to contact him to see if he's interested in buying the BGB as I'm positive he's never seen it.

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to find a list of jobs which have been notified to LABC as I want to see if he's done it or not?
Anyway I'll post this story later.

 

[applesandppears]

Cash in hand is a taxable income you know

 

[Guest55]

Your just Jealous you haven't got one of those bright shinny stickers on Your van!! lol!! :angelsad2::bigcry:

i have , it says Trotters Trading of Peckham. :-D

 

[vincentmcconnel]

Good answer.

 

[puddy]

Cash in hand is a taxable income you know

All income over your personal allowance is taxable.

And when inland revenue part is done your file is passed over to Customs part of the dept for VAT checks

That’s why it’s called HMRC now

Sorry my Mrs is a tax inspector

but the good news she retired 2 years ago

 

[leep82]

I was going to start my own thread but having stumbled across this it seems appropriate I post my questions/thoughts here. My sister and her fiancé are having a small extension built on there house, everything has been approved and they're looking to get it started ASAP. Now me being a spark obviously I am going to do the electrical work for them, although I am not registered with any scheme. I work cards in for an NIC registered company and I have my 17th edition, approved electrician and 2391. The issue I have is signing this work off, going of what I've read on here I'm going to have to contact the LABC, yes? What then happens? Will they want to see proof of my qualifications? Maybe visit site after my first fix? I'm going to assume that whatever they do they don't do it for nothing so what sort of fees am I looking at?

 

[kellogs64]

What a load off b.s. , along as the person signs for install and the guy doing the test signs the testing part where's the problem, the tester will be restricted to what he can see and if the results are ok that's that only as good as an mot .

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was going to start my own thread but having stumbled across this it seems appropriate I post my questions/thoughts here. My sister and her fiancé are having a small extension built on there house, everything has been approved and they're looking to get it started ASAP. Now me being a spark obviously I am going to do the electrical work for them, although I am not registered with any scheme. I work cards in for an NIC registered company and I have my 17th edition, approved electrician and 2391. The issue I have is signing this work off, going of what I've read on here I'm going to have to contact the LABC, yes? What then happens? Will they want to see proof of my qualifications? Maybe visit site after my first fix? I'm going to assume that whatever they do they don't do it for nothing so what sort of fees am I looking at?

You say it's been approved.
Is this a planning application?
Have the electrics been approved, or are they to be left for a Part P electrician to install?

 

[leep82]

spin,
yes the planning has been approved, if I'm going to carry out the work is there anything I need to do other than notify LABC

 

[monkeyelectric]

spin,
yes the planning has been approved, if I'm going to carry out the work is there anything I need to do other than notify LABC

I would of thought electrics were part of the planning so you should be able to install and test then its covered by the planning permission, they may want to inspect it themselves but there shoud'nt be any additional fee

 

[markythesparky]

I dont know what the confusion is with this subject. It is plain and simple, and written in black and white.

Part P 1.28 and 1.29 (which is statutory i.e a legally binding document) forbids anyone other than the installer responsible for the work from issuing an electrical installation certificate. Third parties - not having supervised the work from the outset - would not be in a position to verify that the installation work complied fully with BS7671. A third party could only sign a EICR to indicate that electrical safety tests had been carried out which may or may not have met BS7671 but not that the installation as a whole complied fully with BS7671.

From a purely financial and self preserving point of view, why would you want to do it anyway. Not only are you putting your neck on the block but if we alll did it, we would all wind up as testers and miss out on the decent work.

The only reason people ask registered firms to sign off others work is because the others did it cheaper, and they do it cheaper because they dont have the overheads of belonging to the NICEIC or similar body. If we all refused to sign off others work then we would find that the market prices stayed higher.

The trouble is that there are too many registered sparks who are so short sighted and after the quick buck that ultimately they cut theyre own and everyone elses throats.

WAKE UP PEOPLE AND SMELL THE COFFEE. YOU ONLY HAVE YOURSELVES TO BLAME. STOP DOING IT.

 

[ifindoubtdont]

If you've got 2391 you will be considered competent. I have a similar issue with my brother-in-laws house, he has designed, he has installed, I will test. I will issue a 3 sig EIC and just sign my bit, he will sign his bits (LABC are involved). If you've done it all then you can use a 1 sig EIC. They may want to see your quals, you only have a problem if you haven't got them.

 

[markythesparky]

Presumably you have been supervising the work from the outset, which is why the LABC's can get away with it.

No problem there. This is what approved document Part P states.

 

[electric al]

t.b.h i agree entirely with vjs marwick on this one . too much regulation and too many bodies trying desperately to get their hands into your pocket.

 

[wildgoose]

The problem looming for it will be the 'drive-by' EICR, and as that's currently a problem anyway then nothing's changing in that respect. So the only difference will be, as Tony pointed out, legitamising payments for testing someone else's work.

Will I do it? I doubt it, but not because of any objections I have, I just won't be competative on price as I'll be doing the full range of tests and checking inside all of the points. So Mr testinhalfanhour sparky will be way cheaper than I can be.

Will there be increased risks to life and property? I doubt it, the hard of thinking will allways come up with new and imaginative ways to screw up. So unless a piece of regulation is introduced which increases the percentage of thick or tight people in the population it will be business as usual from what I can see.[/QUOTE]

Read this reply and immediately thought of the PAT testing Fiasco.
ie: Those that quickly stick on a PAT label but don't bother to test it -AND NOW POSSIBLY- Sign off the Installation Certificate and not bother to properly check it.

The PAT label stickers have got away with their cheating for years, so this will probably spawn another group of cowboys: "Electrical Signoff's Carried Out - £50 per cert. Ready on the hour"!!!!