Electricity Meter going backwards?

[OdeTheBear]

Hi all,

I'm buying solar panels on my roof, the potentional insallers have all visited and done thair surveys now I'm reading the quotes. There is something one man said while talking about the financial benefits that I'd like to confirm, is the following technically possible?

He said that one of his customer generated more electricity than be bought from the grid and hence this customer's old fashioned mechanical meter "went backwards, cloking back the numbers". Is that possible?

The new smart meters do that, I know, but an old analogue one? I have an energy monitor that clips on the incoming wire and it only shows the current, not which direction it goes to - can the old meters really go backwards?

 

[Matt_M]

Yes they can go backwards.

If you ring up your energy provider (eg. NPower, EDF, Scottish Power, etc) and tell them what you propose to do, they will come out and upgrade your meter for free.

 

[malcolmsanford]

The old meters can indeed go backwards and depending on age they can indeed "rewind" dials, but they are very old and few and far between.

 

[Justin pearson]

i have an apprentice mate who wired up a system, then took it all apart again as the meter was going backwards he thought he had done it wrong, and didnt want to ask anyone what he had done wrong, in case he looked silly.

He looked silly when he hadnt done anything wrong and it was right in the first place, and had to put it back together.

I shouldnt laugh im a newbie to sparkying too, so would have probably done the same thing.

 

[OdeTheBear]

Thanks for your reply - OK it was true then.

My provider is BG and I have phoned them few times trying to get the meter changed but it seems to be too big of a company, sofar nobody has been able to transfer my call to the right department...

 

[SolarCity]

Shocked and stunned that British Gas have been less than helpful.

I actually see quite a lot of meters going backwards. Perhaps as many as a third of the analogue ones.

You could always leave the old meter in of course......

 

[OdeTheBear]

You could always leave the old meter in of course......

Good idea :wink_smile:

 

[edexlab]

All the old dial type meters I've seen have wound backwards I usually check and demonstrate to customers and advise them to inform the supplier just to prevent any issues later on
if the supplier is made aware then its their problem and not the customers ,anyway I've only heard of a couple of our earliest customers having the meter changed over a year after installation

 

[Worcester]

We just had one electricity supplier claim that it was going backwards beacuse it was faulty and that the solar pv systems was the casue of the fault, so they were going to charge the customer to change the meter as it was the customers fault it was going backwards!

Customer politely told them to !**! ... and they eventually came and changed it for free, after 3 phone calls trying to get the customer to pay, cheeky so and so's!
(customer was on monthly readings and for two months over the summer the reading was less than the previous one, so they just added 1 to the previous readings!)

 

[TonyL]

We just had one electricity supplier claim that it was going backwards beacuse it was faulty and that the solar pv systems was the casue of the fault, so they were going to charge the customer to change the meter as it was the customers fault it was going backwards!

Customer politely told them to !**! ... and they eventually came and changed it for free, after 3 phone calls trying to get the customer to pay, cheeky so and so's!
(customer was on monthly readings and for two months over the summer the reading was less than the previous one, so they just added 1 to the previous readings!)

Your customer was lucky to get away with intentionally submitting inaccurate readings. Where the submission of the reading can be deemed by a reasonable person to be an intentional deception for the purposes of making a personal gain, they are commiting fraud (unless of course, they are a Member of Parliament where its a core skill that they are expected to demonstrate on a daily basis).

This is another part of the Self Certification PV process which is actually far from satisfactory. I know we all smile at it and think hooray for getting one up on the fat cats but................. The installer should have to formally notifying the REC that an analogue meter exists on a PV site. They know it's there and they are, by definition, competent to say so.

As a matter of interest, has anyone done a PV install for an MP (pronouced lying, twisting unprincipled little etc etc etc) ?

 

[SolarCity]

Your customer was lucky to get away with intentionally submitting inaccurate readings. Where the submission of the reading can be deemed by a reasonable person to be an intentional deception for the purposes of making a personal gain, they are commiting fraud (unless of course, they are a Member of Parliament where its a core skill that they are expected to demonstrate on a daily basis).

This is another part of the Self Certification PV process which is actually far from satisfactory. I know we all smile at it and think hooray for getting one up on the fat cats but................. The installer should have to formally notifying the REC that an analogue meter exists on a PV site. They know it's there and they are, by definition, competent to say so.

As a matter of interest, has anyone done a PV install for an MP (pronouced lying, twisting unprincipled little etc etc etc) ?

The meter belongs to the supplier and has nothing to do with the installer. If I am informing them that I have connected to their system, why should it be my concern whether their equipment needs upgrading? It's certainly not a matter of safety and therefore I am delighted every time I see it happening.

 

[brucelee]

British gas metering work ring
0800 316 1779 and ask for a new meter if older than 10yrs old they change it
if you need a 100A dp isolator and new tails all costs £39 total wether you have 1 or all done

 

[TonyL]

The meter belongs to the supplier and has nothing to do with the installer. If I am informing them that I have connected to their system, why should it be my concern whether their equipment needs upgrading? It's certainly not a matter of safety and therefore I am delighted every time I see it happening.

As I said, it is an exceedingly poor part of the self certification process.

Self certification is intended to allow professionals to self certify high standards of workmanship - that should include NOT knowlingly leaving a client with a problem.

A tightening of the standards can't come too soon to make this a professional industry.

 

[SolarCity]

Self certification is intended to allow professionals to self certify high standards of workmanship - that should include NOT knowlingly leaving a client with a problem.

The client does not have a problem. The owner of the meter has the problem.

As electricians, we are repeatedly told not to mess with the meter nor the cutout - a nonsensical situation whereby simply CU changes become a lot more complicated. The meter is not the contractors nor the customers property and I'm afraid they can't have it both ways.

A tightening of the standards can't come too soon to make this a professional industry.

Yeah, yeah. A few meters going backwards is definitely an horrific sign of slipping standards in our industry. We must be the laughing stock of Europe.

 

[Worcester]

Your customer was lucky to get away with intentionally submitting inaccurate readings. Where the submission of the reading can be deemed by a reasonable person to be an intentional deception for the purposes of making a personal gain, they are commiting fraud (unless of course, they are a Member of Parliament where its a core skill that they are expected to demonstrate on a daily basis).

The ONLY reason they put in a higher reading is that the providers system wouldn't let them put in a lower one (on line small supplier) so whose fault is that? The supplier already new of the problem

As a matter of interest, has anyone done a PV install for an MP (pronouced lying, twisting unprincipled little etc etc etc) ?

MP's no, House of Lords, yes, they are our core clientelle!

 

[Markc]

This is another part of the Self Certification PV process which is actually far from satisfactory. I know we all smile at it and think hooray for getting one up on the fat cats but................. The installer should have to formally notifying the REC that an analogue meter exists on a PV site. They know it's there and they are, by definition, competent to say so.

I disagree here. Some FITs application contracts asks "does the meter run backwards?" with a tick box yes or no. As you may be aware this contract is between the customer and the supplier, not the MCS accredited installer. Data protection act prevents the Installer completing such application.

I have seen nothing else anywhere to state or give notice of meters running backwards. The FITs contract is sent to "the" supplier so why can't they take some small proportion of responsibly over actually reading the application other than to pick up on a spelling mistake and refuse application and delay payment for a further four weeks?

Items such as this hasn't anything to do with the so called "need of tightening up of the self certification" procedures.

WE as accredited installers in the most provide the highest levels of service possible with the highest level of professionalism and engineering expertise.

 

[Markc]

A good example of lack of supplier helpfulness happened to me today:

Yesterday we completed a 4kWp system and today revisited the client to aid in the completing of the FITs application with Eon.

The property is a renovation project and not currently occupied. He has to pay 20% VAT on the renovation (5% on the PV) so not deemed as a New Build but Retro Fit. Yesterday Eon fitted a Smart meter for the new property supply. Having not seen a Smart meter before I got talking to the Eon meter guy to find out the in's and out's. Monitor, SIM card reading ect, then the export......................Only to be told the export side is disabled?

Why?........It has to be activated by the office. Well can you action that activation?.........No!? Why not?........It has to be asked for by the bill payer. Ok I will get him to ring in.

So today while completing the forms he rang Eco.

Can you activate the export side of my new Smart meter? Yes my details are XYZ.

Sorry sir No we can't as the property isn't occupied. What difference does that make? You aren't using any energy and so exporting to much!

Now I'm sorry but this is moving the goal posts AGAIN and again making the installer the one to look a fool.

Poor show Eon!

 

[SolarCity]

Sorry sir No we can't as the property isn't occupied. What difference does that make? You aren't using any energy and so exporting to much!

Now I'm sorry but this is moving the goal posts AGAIN and again making the installer the one to look a fool.

Poor show Eon!

Since when has that been a rule?

Another instance of a supplier taking the ****:

We installed a PV system on a site that had a Siemens meter which happened to be one of the ones that registered power in both directions, which gave the customer some dodgy readings. We spoke to the supplier and got the ball rolling to get the meter changed. Eventually it was changed (weeks later) but while they were changing it, the electrician carrying out the meter changed decided to inform the customer that "the PV system has been incorrectly installed and that is what is causing the problem". Luckily, my customer had a good technical background so he challenged this assertion. The electrician was unable to explain exactly what was wrong with the installation - just that it was "wrong". I have written to the department involved demanding a written apology to both myself and my customer.

I have received nothing.

Installers that have dealt with DNOs and supplier over the years will know just how frustrating these people can be.

 

[russgibb]

I guess the hardest bit with a meter running backwards is getting away with deliberately giving excessively high meter readings in the winter

Who'd have thought that we'd be in a position where people are deliberately falsifying readings in favour of the power company!

 

[powervan]

Npower on there fit form ASK IS YOUR METER NOW GOING BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!!! U MUST TICK YES IF IT IS OR U WILL BE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well they wont be happy

 

[langstroth2]

EON's FiT form doesn't ask, so I wrote a note on the form to tell them. It's their meter, I've taken documented reasonable steps to inform them, so now it's their problem as far as I'm concerned.

 

[hp4020]

I am in the same boat, informed Scottish power via email, not even a response !

 

[Noton1205]

Thanks for your reply - OK it was true then.

My provider is BG and I have phoned them few times trying to get the meter changed but it seems to be too big of a company, sofar nobody has been able to transfer my call to the right department...

Bg will change yor meter for free. What area of the country are you in?

 

[liquidity]

Npower on there fit form ASK IS YOUR METER NOW GOING BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!!! U MUST TICK YES IF IT IS OR U WILL BE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well they wont be happy

What about if you fill the form in at night? :lipsrsealed2:

 

[powervan]

if u notify them u can doooooooooooo nooooooooooooo more!!! there is many houses at mo spinning the australian way

 

[OdeTheBear]

if u notify them u can doooooooooooo nooooooooooooo more!!! there is many houses at mo spinning the australian way

Not this time of year mate...

 

[loskie]

I am in the same boat, informed Scottish power via email, not even a response !

Damned Scottish Power are coming to change my meter tomorrow and the panels only went up on Oct 20th. First time they will have attended to anything quickly.:63:

 

[powervan]

well u no wot they say about the scotttttts

 

[Earthstore]

"They invented copper wire fighting over a penny"

 

[stevechorner]

Damned Scottish Power are coming to change my meter tomorrow and the panels only went up on Oct 20th. First time they will have attended to anything quickly.:63:

No-one's gonna change MY meter until I have received my terms and conditions letter and returned it. If they try and do it berfore then I shall tell them to clear off ! They received my FIT form and stuff on 24th Oct and I'm still waiting for my T&C letter, although I have now finally had a letter acknowledging they received my form.

 

[loskie]

To be fair to them they did acknowledge receipt of my FIT application within 5 days of posting at the start of November. The "welcome" letter arrived early this week so they have been pretty efficient in these matters. Queries over the phone and a couple by e mail were dealt with quickly and to my satisfaction too so generally they have performed well.

 

[pogson6]

My meter goes backwards and is analogue built in 2002, when it does it makes me. Surely by putting the MPAN number in the application form and having it on the MCS cert tells the supplier what kind of meter it is, which then puts in ball in their court, Or have i been mis-informed about MPAN numbers?

 

[russgibb]

Personally (my own opinion), it's like speeding. You know what you're doing is illegal and could result in a penalty. Whether or not you choose to speed is how it rests on your conscience and what level of risk you take. Here, it is possible to reduce that risk by self-reading the meter and offering higher than actual meter readings in the winter, to offset the negative effect on readings during the summer. Clearly there is a risk associated with that because an actual meter reader may appear and you may get told that you have submitted to high a reading. I've never known anyone be fined for fraudulantly paying to much to the electricity company. However, at the end of the day you are breaking the rules that you've signed up to, so you haven't a leg to stand on, legally.

 

[JulianC]

As people are often at pains to point out - we're only allowed to mess from the meter tails onwards. Everything from the meter back is not our responsibility. Tell them you've fitted PV in the correct fashion and it's up to them to worry about their meter.