failed EICR, please can you advice

[Julie.]

Do a google image search for "bathroom zones", and 18 of the first 20 results show one!
It takes concerted effort to find a correct diagram unfortunately.

Damm

I looked through a few and finally picked a poor one!!

 

[pc1966]

Do a google image search for "bathroom zones", and 18 of the first 20 results show one!
It takes concerted effort to find a correct diagram unfortunately.

The 60cm seems quite specific though, is that some general guidance for sinks instead of bathroom-specific zones?

 

[timhoward]

The 60cm seems quite specific though, is that some general guidance for sinks instead of bathroom-specific zones?

There's nothing specific in BS7671. There are a few documents that mention 30cm, e.g. NHBC technical notes, GN1, and those fine fellows upholding the standards of the industry at NICEIC...

Section 512.2 has only general comments for the external influence of Water.

 

[ImpededLoop]

The 60cm seems quite specific though, is that some general guidance for sinks instead of bathroom-specific zones?

There's no sign of it in Section 701, so I suspect it's the interpretation of whoever produced that diagram.

 

[westward10]

What happened one site produced the drawing with the zone around the sink. A second site who wanted to put a pic on their site Googled it and up came the zoned sink drawing, they copied it. Can you see where this is going.

 

[littlespark]

The regs specifically state a room “containing a bath or shower”
If it included the wash hand basin, then WCs would be included.

 

[DPG]

What happened one site produced the drawing with the zone around the sink. A second site who wanted to put a pic on their site Googled it and up came the zoned sink drawing, they copied it. Can you see where this is going.

Could you give us one more clue?

 

[ssn1122]

When you have a bath or shower, the space around is defined by zones 0, 1 & 2, and there are different requirements for ingress protection (waterproofness), types of equipment etc for each zone.

There is also a regulation which prevents having a standard socket outlet within 3 metres.

However this only applies within the room itself, or if there isn't a barrier (door, window, hatch etc).

So you can have an outlet directly outside the bathroom door for example, but if you remove the door then it would be prohibited.

If the shower is contained within a proper enclosure (not just a leaky cubicle), again ok within 3 metres, (but not within zone 2), remove the shower enclosure then prohibited etc.

View attachment 93696

Thanks Julie

 

[ssn1122]

Just to add that the report says:
"Low voltage (e.g. 230 volt) socket-outlets sited at least 3 m from zone 1 (701.512.3) Fan isolation switch in bathroom and on-suite. x2 in total"
The first section was auto-completed from ticking a box elsewhere. I still think it actually refers to having fan isolators in zone 2. The "socket" could be a complete red herring, due to the wrong schedule item being chosen.

I manage to speak to him today ( he was booked by the lettings agent so not had any contact with him before ) . He said the reason for putting the isolator switch outside and making it waterproof ( even though it was outside zone 2 ) was that if someone was drunk and stepped out of the shower or reached around the bath and switched on the switch ( this is above the door so not easy to reach from either place except if you stepped out) then it would be a safety issue whereas if you went outside the bathroom you were more likely to be dressed .

 

[ssn1122]

When you have a bath or shower, the space around is defined by zones 0, 1 & 2, and there are different requirements for ingress protection (waterproofness), types of equipment etc for each zone.

There is also a regulation which prevents having a standard socket outlet within 3 metres.

However this only applies within the room itself, or if there isn't a barrier (door, window, hatch etc).

So you can have an outlet directly outside the bathroom door for example, but if you remove the door then it would be prohibited.

If the shower is contained within a proper enclosure (not just a leaky cubicle), again ok within 3 metres, (but not within zone 2), remove the shower enclosure then prohibited etc.

View attachment 93696

he mentioned that the lights are IP20 . So if they are outside zone 2 , they should still be ok ?

 

[westward10]

I manage to speak to him today ( he was booked by the lettings agent so not had any contact with him before ) . He said the reason for putting the isolator switch outside and making it waterproof ( even though it was outside zone 2 ) was that if someone was drunk and stepped out of the shower or reached around the bath and switched on the switch ( this is above the door so not easy to reach from either place except if you stepped out) then it would be a safety issue whereas if you went outside the bathroom you were more likely to be dressed .

That is a ridiculous reason if they are not in zone 2 there is no issue.

 

[timhoward]

I manage to speak to him today ( he was booked by the lettings agent so not had any contact with him before ) . He said the reason for putting the isolator switch outside and making it waterproof ( even though it was outside zone 2 ) was that if someone was drunk and stepped out of the shower or reached around the bath and switched on the switch ( this is above the door so not easy to reach from either place except if you stepped out) then it would be a safety issue whereas if you went outside the bathroom you were more likely to be dressed .

Complain to Napit. Take some photo's, say you are willing to email them photos and the report, and quote this response.
You can't C2 something in case someone is drunk. It doesn't make sense anyway, by his logic you would need IP rated switches in the kitchen in case you washed up and then turned something on.

 

[Julie.]

he mentioned that the lights are IP20 . So if they are outside zone 2 , they should still be ok ?

Outside of Zone 2 i.e. just like anywhere else in the property IP2x is acceptable to the regs.

Would I fit them, depends, good modern ventilated bathroom, probably, old unventilated bathroom I would more than likely fit a higher rated fitting, however this would be by choice not compulsory.

 

[ssn1122]

Outside of Zone 2 i.e. just like anywhere else in the property IP2x is acceptable to the regs.

Would I fit them, depends, good modern ventilated bathroom, probably, old unventilated bathroom I would more than likely fit a higher rated fitting, however this would be by choice not compulsory.

thank you for the advice

 

[ssn1122]

Complain to Napit. Take some photo's, say you are willing to email them photos and the report, and quote this response.
You can't C2 something in case someone is drunk. It doesn't make sense anyway, by his logic you would need IP rated switches in the kitchen in case you washed up and then turned something on.

sorry can I also ask...the socket under the kitchen sink he will not pass the report if it is not waterproof when I asked what regulation it is voilatiing as he said it is a safety hazard ..so i am a bit stuck there . I cant remember if there is a second switch but he mentioned 2 and changing them both. Since there are to plug in a dryer /washing machine ( there is no space in the kitchen for this and I am having the cracked plug in the garage replaced where the dryer and washing machine machine are plugged in , I was thinking of getting this taken out once I make sure it is not in use .

But if it is and if there is no regulation do i still have to change it ? and can he refuse to give me a pass eicr just for this issue . But if it really is a safety hazard I can look at changing ot taking this out

 

[westward10]

There is nothing wrong with that socket. Please tell me this isn't the same electrician you are using to replace your consumer unit in the other thread.

 

[timhoward]

and can he refuse to give me a pass eicr just for this issue

One of the flaws of the system is that the inspector has the final say.
But the inspector is supposed to test according to the regs. There is also a document called Best Practise Guide 4 (free online).
The scheme he belongs to (the same scheme as I do) has rules. The scheme rules are that complaints must first be made in writing to the electrician concerned. If that doesn't get anywhere, then you can complain to Napit.

I would draft a letter of complaint, saying other electricians (including other Napit members) do not agree with the observations, and could they help get this matter resolved. See what happens.

 

[ssn1122]

One of the flaws of the system is that the inspector has the final say.
But the inspector is supposed to test according to the regs. There is also a document called Best Practise Guide 4 (free online).
The scheme he belongs to (the same scheme as I do) has rules. The scheme rules are that complaints must first be made in writing to the electrician concerned. If that doesn't get anywhere, then you can complain to Napit.

I would draft a letter of complaint, saying other electricians (including other Napit members) do not agree with the observations, and could they help get this matter resolved. See what happens.

ok thank you..that is really good advice

 

[ssn1122]

There is nothing wrong with that socket. Please tell me this isn't the same electrician you are using to replace your consumer unit in the other thread.

yes he did the original EICR but I am getting another quote as well. Both have said parts are unavailable/expensive to source and best to replace . He is adamant on not issuing the pass certificate if I do not get this changed . He kept saying it is your house and you can do whatever you want but this has been listed as a C2

 

[brianmoooore]

Being generous, this is just another case of an electrician testing to what he thinks the rules should be, not what they actually are.
Being not so generous, it could be viewed as a money generating exercise.
Condemning the socket under the sink (on IP grounds) is beyond ridiculous. It's even mounted on the structure of the house, rather than the cupboard carcase (for which there is a tenuous argument that it's not permitted.)
Regarding the bathroom lights, there is a regulation that requires equipment to be suitable for the environment into which it is installed, but unless there is evidence of considerable condensation in this bathroom, I wouldn't consider this remotely applicable.
If fitting new lights in a bathroom, I think most of us would fit IP rated ones, but they are not a requirement.