Failed EICR Query

[DPG]

I can't see how you are going to get a tenant to do that. And the cost of the EICR will go up more than you say due to the time taken taking photographs of sockets, cables, etc and agreeing the details of each one with the tenant. Or the customer, assuming you can get the customer to attend. If you don't, then you would have to send him the pictures and then you could have sent him photographs from any old property.

I'm using the rented property example here because a huge chunk of EICRs will obviously be done for rentals.

 

[Electrics]

I can't see how you are going to get a tenant to do that. And the cost of the EICR will go up more than you say due to the time taken taking photographs of sockets, cables, etc and agreeing the details of each one with the tenant. Or the customer, assuming you can get the customer to attend. If you don't, then you would have to send him the pictures and then you could have sent him photographs from any old property.

I'm using the rented property example here because a huge chunk of EICRs will obviously be done for rentals.

My example in practice might not be perfect and needs a lot more thought but the principal is that there are immutable ways of stamping out a lot of the falsehoods and bickering over EICR's (and other things) using new emerging technology. Ok maybe you don't use pictures but something else. Not being funny but you're thinking in a 'boxed in' fashion. You're talking about customer not attending site when it can all be done by smartphone app. I'm not sure how long you think it takes to snap a photo on a phone, but it's not going to add any time onto a job. You can snap 100 photos of an installation in about 5 minutes. Either way, maybe there's a better way than photos but it was just an example.

Siemens are going to use this tech to control traffic lights etc in smart cities. They will use it to control self driving cars so that if there's an accident the ledger knows exactly what went on and who did what because they will constantly be submitting data to the ledger.

Look into it, it's going to be the way the world is, especially in cities in developed countries.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It would literally be an app.

Hedera Hashgraph charges $0.0001 per 'transaction'. So for every 1m messages your Megger sends for example the cost would be $100. So how many times do you press the button on your Megger or Kewtech for every EICR you do? Add that total to the pictures you take and the smart contract you enter into with the customer to verify that your visual observations are correct (eg he cannot say there are wires hanging out when there aren't, in order to try to drum up unnecessary work) which could be done by both of you having the app and exchanging QR codes, and you have the total expense per EICR which obviously is footed by the customer. It would mean adding something silly like $0.001 onto your bill.

You would need a new tester yes but it's not like people don't upgrade all the time anyway, and it would clean up the industry for sure if done right. And it wouldn't need a camera. All mobiles these days have cameras and an app could simply link to the testing device.

All your readings for the circuits would be immutably stored in a database (called a public ledger) and you can then never say you didn't go there, or that you read 0.03 ohms when really you read 0.1, or that your main earth bonding needed redoing etc. It would instantly cure those times we've all seen and heard of where the readings on the sheet are blatantly wrong because they were never actually done in the first place.

This will be the future.

I dislike this idea immensely. The idea of there being even more surveillance and control of me and my work, and even more reliance on technology, turns my stomach.

 

[Julie.]

I dislike this idea immensely. The idea of there being even more surveillance and control of me and my work, and even more reliance on technology, turns my stomach.

I don't see it as surveillance, but I don't think any reliance on Internet availability is of any use whatsoever, I have been in plenty of sites where there is just no signal - and complete areas where it's not available.

I don't think technology is the fix, I think it is better control and training for those that do eicrs - there are many areas of work where you are constantly kept up to date and engaged with changes - but for some people it appears like they did their training years ago, and any suggestion of learning new aspects is an insult to their skills and knowledge - it isn't!

I have friends in medical areas who constantly update their training all the time, it's seen as bettering themselves - a positive thing.

 

[Electrics]

I dislike this idea immensely. The idea of there being even more surveillance and control of me and my work, and even more reliance on technology, turns my stomach.

It's what is coming to the world, better get used to it. These huge tech companies patented medical passport software like 3 years ago.

I don't like it either but it is what it is.

 

[Electrics]

I don't see it as surveillance, but I don't think any reliance on Internet availability is of any use whatsoever, I have been in plenty of sites where there is just no signal - and complete areas where it's not available.

I don't think technology is the fix, I think it is better control and training for those that do eicrs - there are many areas of work where you are constantly kept up to date and engaged with changes - but for some people it appears like they did their training years ago, and any suggestion of learning new aspects is an insult to their skills and knowledge - it isn't!

I have friends in medical areas who constantly update their training all the time, it's seen as bettering themselves - a positive thing.

It wouldn't need immediate signal to be uploaded to a ledger, it would simply bulk transact them once it picked up a wifi signal again.

And anyway, once 5g becomes common this problem disappears.

I'll give you an example of a Hedera use case - Everyware UK placed an app inside the freezers of the NHS, which monitors the freezer temperature so they can prove that anything inside was kept at a certain temperature, thereby proving the safety of the C*VID jab being administered.

They've sent 18m transactions to date since the jab was brought out in the UK. That's one use case. There are thousands more and they're going to become common place but average joe won't even know they're using them. Your freezer will send data to a central ledger proving it kept your food cold so you can't sue the fridge manufacturer in case of food poisoning. Your home electricity usage will be kept on ledger to prove your personal carbon footprint (check out Dovu, a company owned by Jaguar Land Rover). Your trainers will have an immutable traceability back to the person in the factory who operated the machine the sewed on the soles.

A verification app linked to a Megger etc would prevent EICR fraud the same as submitting a report to the governing bodies for verification would only it would be impossible to fake/fudge if the implementation was right and would be provable in a court of law, thereby stopping cowboys right in their tracks. You'd have to do it right or not do it at all.

The software could also be tweaked to make it so readings are automatically uploaded to the ledger on a completed report so you wouldn't need to fill anything out since the transaction itself would count as 'filling in' the data sheet.

Result is, you buy a new £1k tester but all of a sudden the EICR market opens right up because only those willing to do it properly will be able to do the work and therefore the price of them goes up. Winners all round - customer knows they're getting proper, verifiable work done, governing body is provided with immutable data to prove the job has been done properly, engineer knows he's protected from accusations of fraud/drumming up business/people claiming he never did the test etc.

Every aspect of work and life will be online in the next 5 to 10 years. Going through a traffic light will be recorded somewhere. The life cycle of your water bottle will be recorded somewhere. Everything will be 'tokenised' and ownership provable because of ledger tech.

 

[Julie.]

It wouldn't need immediate signal to be uploaded to a ledger, it would simply bulk transact them once it picked up a wifi signal again.

And anyway, once 5g becomes common this problem disappears.

Really!

I can drive for over an hour through glencoe or along the A9 without any signal at all there are vast areas of the UK that will probably never get mobile signal nevermind data.

Also even in populated areas there are areas where there is no signal.

 

[Electrics]

Really!

I can drive for over an hour through glencoe or along the A9 without any signal at all there are vast areas of the UK that will probably never get mobile signal nevermind data.

Also even in populated areas there are areas where there is no signal.

Do you know how the proposed 5g networks work? They can literally cover every square inch of the planet if they need to.

The point is any app wouldn't need permanent connectivity the same way you don't need to fill out your sheet right there and then on site. You can jot it down and fill in the proper sheet at home. Unless you live somewhere that you literally never get a signal, and neither do any of your clients, then this isn't an argument against this sort of tech.

I'm not making this up - it (the tech, not necessarily the Megger idea) is coming, and it's coming everywhere, big time.

If you read into what is happening in the world of tech you would be absolutely astonished.

 

[Julie.]

Do you know how the proposed 5g networks work? They can literally cover every square inch of the planet if they need to.

The point is any app wouldn't need permanent connectivity the same way you don't need to fill out your sheet right there and then on site. You can jot it down and fill in the proper sheet at home. Unless you live somewhere that you literally never get a signal, and neither do any of your clients, then this isn't an argument against this sort of tech.

I'm not making this up - it (the tech, not necessarily the Megger idea) is coming, and it's coming everywhere, big time.

If you read into what is happening in the world of tech you would be absolutely astonished.

I know what can be done, but it really won't make commercial sense to cover every area.

And trying to fix this issue by just adding technology will not solve the issue, if anything it could discourage experienced people and encourage the inexperienced as they can rely on the tech.

I am all for including photos etc in reports, and the use of technology when it is an advantage, but it appears these days it is the technology that we work to "work around" in order to get the job done properly

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It wouldn't need immediate signal to be uploaded to a ledger, it would simply bulk transact them once it picked up a wifi signal again.

And anyway, once 5g becomes common this problem disappears.

I'll give you an example of a Hedera use case - Everyware UK placed an app inside the freezers of the NHS, which monitors the freezer temperature so they can prove that anything inside was kept at a certain temperature, thereby proving the safety of the C*VID jab being administered.

They've sent 18m transactions to date since the jab was brought out in the UK. That's one use case. There are thousands more and they're going to become common place but average joe won't even know they're using them. Your freezer will send data to a central ledger proving it kept your food cold so you can't sue the fridge manufacturer in case of food poisoning. Your home electricity usage will be kept on ledger to prove your personal carbon footprint (check out Dovu, a company owned by Jaguar Land Rover). Your trainers will have an immutable traceability back to the person in the factory who operated the machine the sewed on the soles.

A verification app linked to a Megger etc would prevent EICR fraud the same as submitting a report to the governing bodies for verification would only it would be impossible to fake/fudge if the implementation was right and would be provable in a court of law, thereby stopping cowboys right in their tracks. You'd have to do it right or not do it at all.

The software could also be tweaked to make it so readings are automatically uploaded to the ledger on a completed report so you wouldn't need to fill anything out since the transaction itself would count as 'filling in' the data sheet.

Result is, you buy a new £1k tester but all of a sudden the EICR market opens right up because only those willing to do it properly will be able to do the work and therefore the price of them goes up. Winners all round - customer knows they're getting proper, verifiable work done, governing body is provided with immutable data to prove the job has been done properly, engineer knows he's protected from accusations of fraud/drumming up business/people claiming he never did the test etc.

Every aspect of work and life will be online in the next 5 to 10 years. Going through a traffic light will be recorded somewhere. The life cycle of your water bottle will be recorded somewhere. Everything will be 'tokenised' and ownership provable because of ledger tech.

Those are some truly miserable thoughts.

I have a Cal-card. If I want my tester to read ~1ohm, I put the probes on the right contacts, and it will read, give-or-take, 1 ohm. I have just cheated your system.

 

[DPG]

You'll never cover every inch of the country with mobile data. The law of diminishing returns prevents that. Jimmy in his cottage on the edge of the Outer Hebrides will always struggle.

But that's by the by, as you say any data will be uploaded when signal is available.

I still don't see how you are going to agree all these details though. You will have to go through everything with the tenant/customer each time.

I get the idea of the technology side of things, and I do think it could have some useful input don't get me wrong.

 

[Electrics]

You'll never cover every inch of the country with mobile data. The law of diminishing returns prevents that. Jimmy in his cottage on the edge of the Outer Hebrides will always struggle.

But that's by the by, as you say any data will be uploaded when signal is available.

I still don't see how you are going to agree all these details though. You will have to go through everything with the tenant/customer each time.

I get the idea of the technology side of things, and I do think it could have some useful input don't get me wrong.

No offence but you guys really know very little about the tech that is coming, and this thread proves it.

Wait until you hear about what they're planning with drones. Neuron | Hedera Hashgraph - https://hedera.com/users/neuron

Genuinely no offence meant.

 

[DPG]

No offence but you guys really know very little about the tech that is coming, and this thread proves it.

Genuinely no offence meant.

In what year will 5G offer mobile data to every inch of the UK? Genuine question.

 

[Electrics]

In what year will 5G offer mobile data to every inch of the UK? Genuine question.

EE want to do it by 2028. EE aims for 5G coverage everywhere in UK by 2028 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57811958

 

[DPG]

EE want to do it by 2028.

So in an ideal world it might happen in 7 years. And targets like this normally slip, so most likely longer. 'At some point it may happen'. No doubt 6G will be well under development by then.

But, as I say, we're digressing. Any data just gets uploaded whenever there is a suitable signal.

Let's get back to EICRs. We definitely need a way of clamping down on them, and I think spot checks are a good starting point. Random to start with, and then targeted once patterns are seen.

 

[UNG]

Do you know how the proposed 5g networks work? They can literally cover every square inch of the planet if they need to.

I know a property which is in a built up area on top of a hill it has line of site to a number of masts which I know have the necessary connectivity but you cannot get a mobile phone signal it doesn't make any difference whether it is 2g, 3g or 4g even a smart meter is dead in the water and I can't see 5g being any better

 

[UNG]

EE want to do it by 2028. EE aims for 5G coverage everywhere in UK by 2028 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57811958

There has been talk of high speed internet across the whole of Wales using radio links for many years to my knowledge large areas of Wales are still waiting for it to happen
You appear to be well up on technology so you will know how many years this has been in the pipeline

 

[DPG]

There has been talk of high speed internet across the whole of Wales using radio links for many years to my knowledge large areas of Wales are still waiting for it to happen
You appear to be well up on technology so you will know how many years this has been in the pipeline

Indeed. It sounds similar to many of the targets touted by various companies over recent decades. Not just tech companies, but automotive and energy companies too.

 

[Electrics]

There has been talk of high speed internet across the whole of Wales using radio links for many years to my knowledge large areas of Wales are still waiting for it to happen
You appear to be well up on technology so you will know how many years this has been in the pipeline

Well yeah but this is all missing the point. You not being able to get a signal at some cottage in Cumbria or on the Scottish Islands doesn't mean tech won't be used to literally collect data on everything you do in the next 5-10 years.

That tech can (and probably will) be leveraged to ensure electricians are doing compliant work. My example was just a 'back of the smoke packet' suggestion. Someone much smarter than me will come up with a much better way of doing it, but the point is, just like smart meters can collect data without you doing anything, this tech can be used without the end user even knowing it's being used.

In the very near future you will be able to digitally sell partial quantities of fixed quantity physical items without ever touching the actual physical item. Coming up with something for EICR's is a piece of cake for those who understand how to implement this tech.

If anyone wants an insight, i'd suggest reading some of Siemens' whitepapers, especially those detailing their roadmap for the next 30 years, in particular their stuff around smart homes and smart cities, and also check out what Google, IBM, DLA Piper, Wipro, Shinhan Bank and the London School of Economics are up to.

 

[UNG]

Well yeah but this is all missing the point. You not being able to get a signal at some cottage in Cumbria or on the Scottish Islands doesn't mean tech won't be used to literally collect data on everything you do in the next 5-10 years.

So you are already backtracking on 5g covering every inch of the planet

That tech can (and probably will) be leveraged to ensure electricians are doing compliant work. My example was just a 'back of the smoke packet' suggestion. Someone much smarter than me will come up with a much better way of doing it, but the point is, just like smart meters can collect data without you doing anything, this tech can be used without the end user even knowing it's being used.

Smart meters can't even communcate properly in some built up areas so the tech has limitations

In the very near future you will be able to digitally sell partial quantities of fixed quantity physical items without ever touching the actual physical item. Coming up with something for EICR's is a piece of cake for those who understand how to implement this tech.

Implementing the tech is one thing whether it is of any use is another as data protection will be involved in what is stored and no doubt there may be client issues

If anyone wants an insight, i'd suggest reading some of Siemens' whitepapers, especially those detailing their roadmap for the next 30 years, in particular their stuff around smart homes and smart cities, and also check out what Google, IBM, DLA Piper, Wipro, Shinhan Bank and the London School of Economics are up to.

So the pie in the sky blue sky thinking, the servers of today are already chewing through many megawatts now will we have enough electricity to run all this in 30 years

 

[Electrics]

So you are already backtracking on 5g covering every inch of the planet

Nope, was pointing out that the point wasn't even that. 5g WILL cover every inch of the planet. But that's not relevant to the point i was making and is a pointless side argument i'm not interested in having.

Smart meters can't even communcate properly in some built up areas so the tech has limitations

Implementing the tech is one thing whether it is of any use is another as data protection will be involved in what is stored and no doubt there may be client issues

So the pie in the sky blue sky thinking, the servers of today are already chewing through many megawatts now will we have enough electricity to run all this in 30 years

Sorry but you should stick to electric since you have no clue about technology. No offence meant, genuinely, but you sound just like the pre boomers who said the internet would never take off - you don't know how much you don't know. For instance you would never make the point about data protection if you actually knew the immutable data can be stored anonymously via TLS encryption.

 

[Julie.]

OK so none of us has any idea of technology, you will have your app which will record everything in every square mm of the planet.

How will it determine the issue or non issue - there is a 4mm hole in the consumer unit - what does the app do?

How does it get this information and what happens?

Do you decide C1, C2, C3, or nothing?

If so how is the technology fixing the problem?

 

[DPG]

Nope, was pointing out that the point wasn't even that. 5g WILL cover every inch of the planet. But that's not relevant to the point i was making and is a pointless side argument i'm not interested in having.

Sorry but you should stick to electric since you have no clue about technology. No offence meant, genuinely, but you sound just like the pre boomers who said the internet would never take off - you don't know how much you don't know. For instance you would never make the point about data protection if you actually knew the immutable data can be stored anonymously via TLS encryption.

You are just throwing technical terms around without any real substance. TLS is an encryption system which has been around for many years. It has no real relevance to your argument.

You are also changing your arguments as you go once things are pointed out to you, and you avoid some points which are put to you.

Repeating the word 'immutable' endlessly does not increase the relevance of your point.

Having said that, I agree that technology could be used more to improve things. But so could spot checks, and as UNG says, more control over who can actually perform EICRs.

This debate seems to be going the same way as the one about advising a newly qualified electrician to do notifiable work and tell the customer that they could just not bother notifying it if they preferred though.

 

[Electrics]

OK so none of us has any idea of technology, you will have your app which will record everything in every square mm of the planet.

The app wouldn't do that, i said 5g would be everywhere eventually.

How will it determine the issue or non issue - there is a 4mm hole in the consumer unit - what does the app do?

How does it get this information and what happens?

It would rely on user input.

Do you decide C1, C2, C3, or nothing?

That's for a regulatory body to decide.

If so how is the technology fixing the problem?

I don't know why you're expecting me to come up with some full working solution. It can be done, trust me, but if i had the time to sit and work it out i wouldn't be following a Level 2 college course and would instead be getting tech firms and venture capitalists on board.

Eventually technology will render this stuff impossible to fake. And it's just around the corner. Yes it could be done via an app integrated with a tester, it could be integrated via thermal imaging technology, it could be integrated by smart contracts where the customer and engineer have to agree beforehand what condition the installation is in making it impossible for someone to, say, drill a 4mm hole and claim it was there to begin with, or clip out some cables and claim they need rewiring etc.

It's theoretically possible to actually install a ledger straight into an installation which means you could read and record cable values etc without even going to the building. It would just send data like a smart meter does.

It's also possible through a range of technologies to prevent stuff from being tampered with without it being recorded somewhere.

You guys will get how big this stuff is going to be in 5-10 years when we have billions of drones flying above head, self-driving cars, self-managing smart cities, full smart homes and flying cars (no, i'm not joking) and robots delivering our mail (no, i'm also not joking, check out SingularityNET.)

Until then my best guess is that it would be prudent to have some sort of central authority responsible for EICR's, and it would be possible to install a simple interface that records all the data straight from the MFT to a cert - i know you can get torque wrenches that connect to software and send the reading directly to a cert. All you have to do is connect that data through an immutable public ledger and the result cannot be changed - if the tested read 1ohm it records 1ohm and you cannot say it didn't since the ledger is immutable. The possibilities are endless.

 

[Electrics]

This debate seems to be going the same way as the one about advising a newly qualified electrician to do notifiable work and tell the customer that they could just not bother notifying it if they preferred though.

Yeah only i never said that did i? Don't you remember, we went through this. You simply twisted my words because you cannot properly infer implicit meaning. I challenged you to provide evidence where i said anything like what you claimed i did and you melted away like a wet rag because you know full well i didn't say it. 'Well, we all KNOW what you MEANT'. Yeah sure. Simple case of you getting it wrong and then compounding your error by refusing to back down and admit you were wrong in order to avoid looking silly. Very dishonourable.

 

[Julie.]

The app wouldn't do that, i said 5g would be everywhere eventually.


It would rely on user input.

That's for a regulatory body to decide.

I don't know why you're expecting me to come up with some full working solution. It can be done, trust me, but if i had the time to sit and work it out i wouldn't be following a Level 2 college course and would instead be getting tech firms and venture capitalists on board.

Eventually technology will render this stuff impossible to fake. And it's just around the corner. Yes it could be done via an app integrated with a tester, it could be integrated via thermal imaging technology, it could be integrated by smart contracts where the customer and engineer have to agree beforehand what condition the installation is in making it impossible for someone to, say, drill a 4mm hole and claim it was there to begin with, or clip out some cables and claim they need rewiring etc.

It's theoretically possible to actually install a ledger straight into an installation which means you could read and record cable values etc without even going to the building. It would just send data like a smart meter does.

It's also possible through a range of technologies to prevent stuff from being tampered with without it being recorded somewhere.

You guys will get how big this stuff is going to be in 5-10 years when we have billions of drones flying above head, self-driving cars, self-managing smart cities, full smart homes and flying cars (no, i'm not joking) and robots delivering our mail (no, i'm also not joking, check out SingularityNET.)

Until then my best guess is that it would be prudent to have some sort of central authority responsible for EICR's, and it would be possible to install a simple interface that records all the data straight from the MFT to a cert - i know you can get torque wrenches that connect to software and send the reading directly to a cert. All you have to do is connect that data through an immutable public ledger and the result cannot be changed - if the tested read 1ohm it records 1ohm and you cannot say it didn't since the ledger is immutable. The possibilities are endless.

I think you are completely misunderstanding the requirements or need here.

All this thing appears to do is collect a few bits of test results - which adds little to solve the problem.

So what if it recorded a Zs of 0.9ohm on a 16A mcb feeding a radial - so it's recorded automatically rather than entering it manually - how does this solve anything - is 0.9 ohm correct for this circuit? How could the mft possibly know this?

As for the 4mm hole in the side of the cu this should be well known at the moment, it doesn't need any committee to decide anything - any electrician should know straight away.

Which is more the point - neither of these simple problems are aided by any app or automatic recording.

What is needed is that the people doing the eicr actually understand what they are doing and work to a standard.

Any app or automation is superfluous

 

[DPG]

Post 76 is spot on.

 

[littlespark]

The truth is NO ONE can see into the future and KNOW how we will be working in 5 or 10 years.

We can only predict, to a certain extent, how current technology will evolve.
We have 5G already, and yes it will cover the majority of the country…. But saying that, certain areas of the country are still waiting for 3G! (If any mobile coverage)

 

[timhoward]

I would go as far as agreeing that until EICR's (or at least a sample) are routinely reviewed by someone, whether it be the local council, a cps scam, or even Ted down the pub, there will always be opportunism, different interpretations, and downright incompetence to some degree.
I don't see technology during the T&I process contributing much towards improvement. Latest testers can already store all the results and upload them to a computer, though in reality for most of us it's far too much a faff to use these features!

I think the OP made some very astute comments about the mess and pot luck surrounding EICR's but I still don't feel the original EICR was miles off. At the end of the day the original CU owes no-one anything and it's time to put something in that will likely stay there for the next 30 years!

 

[UNG]

No offence but you guys really know very little about the tech that is coming, and this thread proves it.

Wait until you hear about what they're planning with drones. Neuron | Hedera Hashgraph - https://hedera.com/users/neuron

Genuinely no offence meant.

You are perpetuating other peoples predictions without any real evidence to substantiate your claims. When they put man on the Moon in 1969 it was predicted that in less than a decade we would have man land landing on Mars some 50+ years on it still hasn't happened and

Nope, was pointing out that the point wasn't even that. 5g WILL cover every inch of the planet. But that's not relevant to the point i was making and is a pointless side argument i'm not interested in having.

I think you need to get your head out of the dark side and stop twisting and backtracking on what you are saying. You don't even know how difficult it would be to build a cost effective 5g radio network that will cover every inch of the planet with low cost high speed internet connections

Sorry but you should stick to electric since you have no clue about technology. No offence meant, genuinely, but you sound just like the pre boomers who said the internet would never take off - you don't know how much you don't know.

I do actually very much take offence at that that comment and one thing I know about you is you clearly don't know as much as you think you do.
Look back over the last 50 - 60 years and some of the technology predictions that were made during that period yes some have actually happened but many have fallen by the wayside and some are still waiting for the technology to make them happen

For instance you would never make the point about data protection if you actually knew the immutable data can be stored anonymously via TLS encryption.

When some body has to have access to view the information on the ledger to make a decision on the evidence stored as to whether the C1, 2, or 3 is a correct outcome and any circuit tests are valid any anonymity is lost TLS encryption or not as the ledger will no doubt have the location of where the data was collected and uploaded if they are different otherwise it will be meaningless