Fire Alarm Fraud Sentenced at Manchester Crown Court

[accordfire]

Further update to the posts about the so-called fire alarm "engineer" who appeared at Manchester Crown Court, after failing to maintain a fire alarm system properly, which came to light AFTER a building fire in which life was lost.

Read the article here

As I predicted, despite the very obvious issues, the alleged former retained fire fighter and electrician has been fined £5,000 with £6,000 costs.

Whilst the "crime" of failing to maintain a fire alarm system properly might now seem very great, the loss of life always is. There is little doubt that had the system been working properly, and working the way it was designed, life might not have been sacrificed.

I don't think this punishment went far enough, given that it is technically the equivalent to a slap on the wrist.

When will we learn to take these things seriously.

 

[sparx24]

About ruddy time I say!
I am having difficulty with my local pub landlord, who can't understand why he has to keep a log of weekly tests he should be carrying out.
Not my installation thankfully, but he is trying to sell up and the incomming tenants solicitor is asking relevent searching questions (as I said they would), he thought I was talking up a job earlier....humble pie now!

 

[john25]

What kind of message does that send out when you only get fined pittance for causing loss of life by cutting corners and not maintaining a life saving Fire Alarm system ???. They have weekly fire alarm tests for a reason.

 

[alarm man]

Further update to the posts about the so-called fire alarm "engineer" who appeared at Manchester Crown Court, after failing to maintain a fire alarm system properly, which came to light AFTER a building fire in which life was lost.

Read the article here

As I predicted, despite the very obvious issues, the alleged former retained fire fighter and electrician has been fined £5,000 with £6,000 costs.

Whilst the "crime" of failing to maintain a fire alarm system properly might now seem very great, the loss of life always is. There is little doubt that had the system been working properly, and working the way it was designed, life might not have been sacrificed.

I don't think this punishment went far enough, given that it is technically the equivalent to a slap on the wrist.

When will we learn to take these things seriously.

depends on his training,if he thought he was maintaining to regs,he wouldnt know any difference,did he claim to be part of a scheme etc,id have thought the brigade would be up to scratch on regs,we dont know all the facts so dont condem the lad just yet.

 

[accordfire]

About ruddy time I say!
I am having difficulty with my local pub landlord, who can't understand why he has to keep a log of weekly tests he should be carrying out.
Not my installation thankfully, but he is trying to sell up and the incomming tenants solicitor is asking relevent searching questions (as I said they would), he thought I was talking up a job earlier....humble pie now!

Sadly, that's often the only time it comes out - the truth, I mean, that often there is no upselling, and that we're literally just trying to keep them legal and compliant. We get let down so much by governments and authorities not doing their bit for awareness of the laws and rules they make.

The real sad thing is no this guy has been done for his blatant disregard for the rules, it's going to simply fade away - they could have made so much positive out of this by way of educating the public too.

 

[accordfire]

What kind of message does that send out when you only get fined pittance for causing loss of life by cutting corners and not maintaining a life saving Fire Alarm system ???. They have weekly fire alarm tests for a reason.

Agreed totally.

And this was really part of my argument in another thread about this - and, honestly, the only "defence" I could possibly offer for the guy getting done - the responsible person, IMO should ALSO have been done for failure to carry out appropriate and adequate weekly testing.

A weekly test should allow for activation of every manual call point in a system over the course of a year. By definition, reset of that should involve a cursory check of the fire panel - which on silencing the call point alarm, should have revealed no buzzer. A simple glance would have shown painted over fault lamps too! You don't need anything other than common sense for that.

As I say, the real shame now is that having sentenced this guy, they won't use the publicity it should have generated to educate people.

I get accused of being very ---- about fire safety. This is why.

 

[millwall ken]

Agreed totally.

And this was really part of my argument in another thread about this - and, honestly, the only "defence" I could possibly offer for the guy getting done - the responsible person, IMO should ALSO have been done for failure to carry out appropriate and adequate weekly testing.

A weekly test should allow for activation of every manual call point in a system over the course of a year. By definition, reset of that should involve a cursory check of the fire panel - which on silencing the call point alarm, should have revealed no buzzer. A simple glance would have shown painted over fault lamps too! You don't need anything other than common sense for that.

As I say, the real shame now is that having sentenced this guy, they won't use the publicity it should have generated to educate people.

I get accused of being very ---- about fire safety. This is why.

Bill, the w***** would of got longer if he had been drink driving!!! Pathetic sentence - but no surprise in this day and age. Just what do you have to do to go to prison these days?

 

[accordfire]

Bill, the w***** would of got longer if he had been drink driving!!! Pathetic sentence - but no surprise in this day and age. Just what do you have to do to go to prison these days?

Try to help someone mate - it seems the nicer you try to be, the more likely you are to end up in nick for it.

You're dead right, of course - it seems you can protect with violence, blow things up, rob folk at gun and knife point, rape, murder, and so on, and know fine, if you fit certain criteria, the worst that happens is a slap on the wrist.

There was a time when - ah, but then I'm going to get "old school" - but you know where I'm going - when things used to be run properly, with respect......

Now, it seems any pr**k with a gun can lay the law down to suit themselves.

Now, hush my baby mouth - it's Christmas time, and I am determined to sound happy about something

 

[millwall ken]

Have a good one Bill.

 

[Tillywolves]

Its industry wide in my opinion. I used to work for a national, one of the biggest, and some of the engineers were so obsessed in getting their commission payments for spares, and small works, checking the system was tested properly came in a poor second.

 

[oldtimer]

What I cannot figure out is that firefighters say they have a hard job and I for one would not go against this but what is missing here is the culture within firefighting that allows the employee to sleep on a night shift so he or she is fit for a bit of moonlighting during the day the most common is kitchen fitters, alarm installers electrical jobs. So with a gold plated pension and extras like sick pay why are the bosses not asking questions about this ie fitting a kitchen all day then turn up for a night shift hoping for a good nights kip so what happens if there is a call will they be fit enough to tackle this.
I remember years ago a "firefighter" in Edinburgh was fitting burglar alarms and he was that busy that he was taking his dayshifts off on the sick and this case smacks of the "this looks like easy money to be made" and if it goes wrong then no big deal ie wont go to jail therefor will not lose gold plated pension and benifits. In other words as long as the authorities are going to devalue what we do for a living and customers driving for "cheap" jobs is it any wonder our industry is a total mess.

 

[accordfire]

Its industry wide in my opinion. I used to work for a national, one of the biggest, and some of the engineers were so obsessed in getting their commission payments for spares, and small works, checking the system was tested properly came in a poor second.

Heh - most of us have worked for Ch**b at one point or another Tilly.....

It's what happens in a culture of Flat Rate Pricing, as discussed elsewhere on the forum lately - and to be honest, most of the Nationals are due a big pile of bricks landing on them. Sadly, the only way it's going to happen if the "approvals" bodies stand up to their paymasters, and that's not likely to happen any time soon.

In the meantime, all any of us can do is keep the drive for using smaller companies going hard.

 

[accordfire]

What I cannot figure out is that firefighters say they have a hard job and I for one would not go against this but what is missing here is the culture within firefighting that allows the employee to sleep on a night shift so he or she is fit for a bit of moonlighting during the day the most common is kitchen fitters, alarm installers electrical jobs. So with a gold plated pension and extras like sick pay why are the bosses not asking questions about this ie fitting a kitchen all day then turn up for a night shift hoping for a good nights kip so what happens if there is a call will they be fit enough to tackle this.
I remember years ago a "firefighter" in Edinburgh was fitting burglar alarms and he was that busy that he was taking his dayshifts off on the sick and this case smacks of the "this looks like easy money to be made" and if it goes wrong then no big deal ie wont go to jail therefor will not lose gold plated pension and benifits. In other words as long as the authorities are going to devalue what we do for a living and customers driving for "cheap" jobs is it any wonder our industry is a total mess.

It isn't as prevalent an issue as it once was, although still endemic in proportion.

There is more emphasis on qualification within the service now than ever before, and less opportunity to moonlight. That said, it still happens, though many of the major culprits have been first in the cut back lists.

The real problem lies in the fact that the service are no longer carrying out inspections in the way they used to - in fact around only ten percent of the level prior to 2007, and most of those are "high" profile sites, and purely verification of the findings of any risk assessment already in place.

Like policing, the fire service has been allowed to defer responsibility - and so we find ourselves more and more responsible for our own security, fire safety, and Health and Safety, with the realisation that the bodies formerly responsible for that now only set standards, and prosecute failures to comply.

In security terms, we're already seeing the reality of a "private" police force in the form of guarding/keyholding, and alarm response. We see it in the downgrading of criminal responses such as burglary, traffic offences, neighbourhood "policing" and so on. All the while the police hide behind the term "intelligence led" - for which any sane person reads "budget cutbacks and poor management".

In the fire service, the similar effect has been to cut back on provision of fire safety, response time to fires, attendance at large building construction meetings, public advice "events" and so on.

In much the same way as we lost our communities and our High Streets, the definitions of what our emergency services are about is also changing beyond anything any of us knew growing up.

 

[oldtimer]

Accordfire
I would add that fire safety at home has increased 100 fold from 50 years ago ie electrical equipment being fitted with thermal links hardwired battery back up smoke sensors the virtual elimination of chip fryers (at one time the main cause of domestic fires) and no more plugging in of irons into the lighting circuit as my old gran usd to do electrical saftey standards I could go on and yes we still need firefighters and I do not grudge them their pensions and early retirement but I care about the moonlighting and what is happening to our trade. The funny thing is if you can call it that is that the firefighter who got fined can plead ignorance we cannot as we are meant to legally know the score so he gets a fine and gives the green light to his mates back at the firestation ie just take the risk where we wil go to jail so the only thing I can do is refuse to drop my standards or cut corners or fake documentation and yes it sounds pompus and self worth but thats just the way some want to percieve this

 

[millwall ken]

What I cannot figure out is that firefighters say they have a hard job and I for one would not go against this but what is missing here is the culture within firefighting that allows the employee to sleep on a night shift so he or she is fit for a bit of moonlighting during the day the most common is kitchen fitters, alarm installers electrical jobs. So with a gold plated pension and extras like sick pay why are the bosses not asking questions about this ie fitting a kitchen all day then turn up for a night shift hoping for a good nights kip so what happens if there is a call will they be fit enough to tackle this.
I remember years ago a "firefighter" in Edinburgh was fitting burglar alarms and he was that busy that he was taking his dayshifts off on the sick and this case smacks of the "this looks like easy money to be made" and if it goes wrong then no big deal ie wont go to jail therefor will not lose gold plated pension and benifits. In other words as long as the authorities are going to devalue what we do for a living and customers driving for "cheap" jobs is it any wonder our industry is a total mess.

What gets my goat is that THIS is really what the Fire fighters strikes are really all about. The union wants to defend these spainish practices.
Yet I know a young squaddie who got an official reprimand for moonlighting as a fitness instructor with British Military Fitness whilst he was on leave.

 

[malcolmsanford]

A fire officer ............who is no longer with us rest him ...................once told me that there are 3 basic things a fireman needs to know

1 Never get to close to the big Yellow/orangey thing as it might burn
2. Do you like a drink
3. Get to know all the trades in your area as they are useful contacts when you on nights 4 on 4 off.

I'm sure most of this was tongue in cheek and I don't begrudge these lad every penny they earn ..................at their own job I for one would not want to clear up some of the things they do.

Ken I think your right the last actually dispute a month or so back was about changing shift patterns and the chance to moonlight.

 

[lloyd1980]

90% of lads who are fire officers moonlight.
I have just worked with one who was doing kitchen fitting, painting\decorating\plumbing\roofing
Thank god I got called in to do the electrics and supplied cert.

It goes on all the time everywhere, just deal with it, its a fact of life , when given the chance men will moonlight for extra cash

its NOT the end of the world !!!

happy xmas!!!

 

[millwall ken]

90% of lads who are fire officers moonlight.
I have just worked with one who was doing kitchen fitting, painting\decorating\plumbing\roofing
Thank god I got called in to do the electrics and supplied cert.

It goes on all the time everywhere, just deal with it, its a fact of life , when given the chance men will moonlight for extra cash

its NOT the end of the world !!!

happy xmas!!!

90% of Fire fighters moonlight at other jobs.... My point exactly, about why these people want to defend their shift patterns and refuse to modernise. Of course anyone would moonlight at another job if given the opportunity - its absolutely rife within the public services. However I would expect a Tradesman (either full-time or moonlighting) to be qualified and experienced in the job he was doing for me!!! Lets hope that you never lose out on a contract to someone moonlighting, er...

 

[oldtimer]

Because of improved fire safety and lower call-out in the US some states use their firefighters as a first response in accidents as they are all trained to paramedic level I can hear the demarcation screams already.
But joking aside someone will get killed with this and as I have said gold plated pensions and benifits should not allow you to run a discounted building company because you can get a few bob and at the same time do not have to worry about any comebacks. Although I would point out the reason for improved fire safety was insurance companies in the states driving it as they were the ones picking up the tab for the damage they would add more premiums to your policy if you did not apply fire safety ie smoke heads ,fire blankets etc now there is a thought ...............

 

[accordfire]

It is true that fire safety has improved dramatically over the years in domestic dwellings.

This is less true for commercial based property however, including HMO properties.

As we all know, fire is easily started, and almost always devastating at some level.

We have a right to expect a professional and qualified response from our Fire Services, and by and large we do receive this - if at reduced strength much of the time due to incidents such as those mentioned.

I feel I should mention that although the RRO, Fire Scotland Act, and so on have all moved responsibility for fire safety firmly onto the "responsible person's" (i.e. ours) heads, pretty well every fire service WILL send someone out to advise, should you have any issue with a Fire Risk Assessment that has been carried out on your behalf.

However, it isn't fair to blame reductions in service solely on the fact that statistically around 36% of full time fire fighters have another "paid" occupation, which may impact their duties, as central government cost cutting over the years has also had a big part to play. Many times these days, the Fire Services as a whole are put in the position of having to respond in specific ways due to government interference.

To get back to the point of the thread briefly - this case was intended (and IMO, failed) to highlight the legal obligation on commercial premises to carry out proper and adequate Fire Safety measures. What it has clarified is something businesses like mine have been shouting about for a while now - that although you effectively pass the risk on when you contract an individual or business to provide fire safety services (Risk assessment, Fire alarm maintenance, Extinguishers, Emergency lighting, Signage, etc) you also still retain a degree of culpability where that service is blatantly not provided properly or at all.

The original owners of that home were prosecuted, I am led to believe (and in part for the evident failings on the fire alarm).

What it also highlights, and this is the part which is most relevant to most of us, is that inspection of these areas is on the rise (slowly) and more incidents are being investigated in the case of fire than ever before - critically, more prosecutions are taking place than ever before for failures to meet fire safety laws, and now that the test case has been completed, we can all expect to see many more "trades" people in the dock, because we are now officially an "easy target".

I know of a few Senior Fire Officers who have, if you like a s**t list of premises, and have only been waiting for a case like this, to be able to throw the book.

In short, the impact for trades involved in any way in fire safety is this:

The onus is firmly on you to ensure the DESIGN of any fire safety you undertake is compliant and Certificated.
The onus is firmly on you to ensure the INSTALLATION of any fire safety you undertake is compliant and certificated.
The onus is firmly on you to ensure that ONGOING MAINTENANCE of any fire safety is compliant and certificated.

For clarity, Fire Safety includes:

Fire Detection and Alarm Systems - INCLUDING those installed to BS5839-6 for HMO properties
Emergency Lighting Installations
Fire Extinguisher Installations
Safety Signage Installations

Electrical Installations
The Fire Risk Assessment Itself (where you undertake such)
Miscellaneous Fire Prevention Measures, such as Fire Doors, Escapes, Blankets, Sand buckets, and so on.

Wherever and whenever you undertake ANY work in relation to any area which has an impact on Fire Safety (Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order, Fire (Scotland) Act, Fire Safety Regulations (Northern Ireland) and in Eire, The Fire Services Act, you are implicitly passed responsibility for the fire safety aspects of whatever you are signing off.

As I say, with the test case now confirmed, the flood gates ARE now open.