Fuel Gauge needle moving with revs issue

[Tarlow]

Hi! I've been having issues with the fuel gauge on an old vespa scooter, and I'd like to ask those who understand these things for advice on what I did wrong, and/or how to fix it.

The scooter is 12V AC. The stator produces (on paper) 120w, which is passed through a 3-pole regulator (12V; 20A), and goes to the gauge according to the schematic below. The float unit is brand new, and has been tested.

The diode is a 1N4007, and the resistor after it is a 5.2 ohm unit.






The issue is that, starting the engine, the needle goes to the correct position on the gauge (the tank was full for the video), and generally gives the correct reading while at idle. However, whenever the revs go above idle, the needle moves to the left. I have this same issue with a spare gauge, so I'm inclined to think this particular gauge isn't at fault, but the way the circuit is set up.

Here's a vid showing how the gauge reacts when revving the engine:

Any idea what may be causing this? BTW, the regulator is NOS, and although I haven't checked its output, it seems to be working fine (no blown light bulbs).

 

[DPG]

Is there a voltage regulator anywhere on the scooter? I suspect it will need one to avoid variations due to supply (battery) voltage.

 

[Tarlow]

Hi,

Yes, There is a 3-pole regulator (12V; 20A), right after the stator, and there's no battery. I never questioned the regulator because it was new and I've never had the issue of bulbs blowing, but could a faulty regulator cause this to happen?

 

[DPG]

Hi,

Yes, There is a 3-pole regulator (12V; 20A), right after the stator, and there's no battery. I never questioned the regulator because it was new and I've never had the issue of bulbs blowing, but could a faulty regulator cause this to happen?

I would say it could cause the issue yes. Check the output of the regulator with a voltmeter while you vary the engine revs.

 

[Tarlow]

I guess that would make sense, and explain why several gauges had the same issue on the same bike...

So should the regulator (if good) deliver no more than 14.6V like a battery, or is there a different tolerance?

Access to the regulator isn't easy, so I'll check the output at the rear light first (2 screws to undo) before dismantling the bike to get to the regulator. If the voltage is too high there, that will confirm that the regulator isn't doing its job.

 

[DPG]

I guess that would make sense, and explain why several gauges had the same issue on the same bike...

So should the regulator (if good) deliver no more than 14.6V like a battery, or is there a different tolerance? I'll try to check that this evening.

The key thing is that it should be fairly constant regardless of engine revs. Let us know what readings you get.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The faults on most of the older vehicles I worked on in my youth could be traced to a bad earth connection to the unit showing a fault, just a thought.

My old Lotus would wind down the electric windows when you turned on the radio all down to an earth return fault.

 

[Tarlow]

My old Lotus would wind down the electric windows when you turned on the radio all down to an earth return fault.

I'm pretty confident in that part of the wiring. Continuity was checked on all relevant leads when troubleshooting the gauge, and there was continuity between the frame and negative plots at the float sender and the gauge itself.

I checked the voltage at the rear light and at the regulator (Ducati), and checked again with an older (apparently working) regulator (no name):

 

[DPG]

I'm pretty confident in that part of the wiring. Continuity was checked on all relevant leads when troubleshooting the gauge, and there was continuity between the frame and negative plots at the float sender and the gauge itself.

I checked the voltage at the rear light and at the regulator (Ducati), and checked again with an older (apparently working) regulator (no name):

Lot of variation there.

 

[Tarlow]

So both regulators are out of whack?

 

[DPG]

So both regulators are out of whack?

Is the ground connection to the regulator definitely good? And earth strap to engine, if there is one.

 

[Tarlow]

I'll check continuity between the black wire at the regulator and the frame again.

The stator has a hot wire going to the regulator, and a ground going to the body's ground wiring (shared with the regulator). Is that what you mean by earth strap to engine? I'll check continuity between stator ground wire and regulator as well.

 

[Tarlow]

Checked both, there's continuity between the regulator ground and the frame, and the ground wire from the stator.

 

[DPG]

Checked both, there's continuity between the regulator ground and the frame, and the ground wire from the stator.

How much is a new regulator?

 

[Tarlow]

Just checked a third regulator I had laying around, and same figures obtained as the last 2.

A new regulator shouldn't be too expensive, but these 3 pole ones usually gave to be ordered.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Was the scooter ever fitted with a battery ?

Also what are the readings when you put the meter on the AC range ?

Also what voltage lamps do you buy for this scooter, i.e. is it a 12V system or 6V system.

 

[Tarlow]

The scooter wasn't fitted with a battery and is 12V AC, but the one the gauge came from was 12V DC. I added a diode to this gauge to make it work with AC.

Another gauge was tested on this scooter with the same results.

Not sure what you mean by putting the meter on the AC range. You mean plugging the red wire on the left? I've been conducting all these tests plugged to the right.



I just tried on the left, and the readings are usually 0

 

[DPG]

The scooter wasn't fitted with a battery and is 12V AC, but the one the gauge came from was 12V DC. I added a diode to this gauge to make it work with AC.

Another gauge was tested on this scooter with the same results.

Not sure what you mean by putting the meter on the AC range. You mean plugging the red wire on the left? I've been conducting all these tests plugged to the right.

View attachment 116340

I just tried on the left, and the readings are usually 0

If the gauge isn't intended for DC operation then that is probably your problem.

Don't use the left hand socket, that is for current only, and will effectively short circuit anything you connect between it and the centre socket.

 

[Tarlow]

The gauge IS intended for DC operation, which is why I added the diode. The setup is similar to another gauge tried, for use on an AC scooter. Same needle wavering.

 

[DPG]

The gauge IS intended for DC operation, which is why I added the diode. The setup is similar to another gauge tried, for use on an AC scooter. Same needle wavering.

Sorry, I'm out of ideas.

 

[mainline]

Hi! I've been having issues with the fuel gauge on an old vespa scooter, and I'd like to ask those who understand these things for advice on what I did wrong, and/or how to fix it.

The scooter is 12V AC. The stator produces (on paper) 120w, which is passed through a 3-pole regulator (12V; 20A), and goes to the gauge according to the schematic below. The float unit is brand new, and has been tested.

The diode is a 1N4007, and the resistor after it is a 5.2 ohm unit.
View attachment 116326



View attachment 116328

The issue is that, starting the engine, the needle goes to the correct position on the gauge (the tank was full for the video), and generally gives the correct reading while at idle. However, whenever the revs go above idle, the needle moves to the left. I have this same issue with a spare gauge, so I'm inclined to think this particular gauge isn't at fault, but the way the circuit is set up.

Here's a vid showing how the gauge reacts when revving the engine:

Any idea what may be causing this? BTW, the regulator is NOS, and although I haven't checked its output, it seems to be working fine (no blown light bulbs).

Is there no voltage stabiliser fitted ?
Usually the stabiliser gives a regulated 10 volts supplying the gauges.

 

[DPG]

Is there no voltage stabiliser fitted ? Which is different to the charging regulator.

Good point. Do they have these on scooters?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Did not answer the question if there is an earth strap to the engine and while we are at it, is there a suppressor on the spark plug?

 

[plugsandsparks]

Turn the meter selector switch 2 clicks to the right where it shows 200 V, this will measure AC , depending on the meter it should give an accurate reading then connect to the lamp as you were doing it before and note the reading. As you have a DC gauge you need a better rectifier and a voltage regulator but you do need a good idea of the voltage range in AC before a suitable regulator will work across idle and full revs.
just one diode will not cut it as you have a frequency change with revs which changes the voltage in DC as presented to the gauge.

 

[Tarlow]

Is there no voltage stabiliser fitted ?
Usually the stabiliser gives a regulated 10 volts supplying the gauges.

Apart from the regulator, no such device on this vehicle. Here's a wiring diagram for this type of scooter:

 

[Tarlow]

Did not answer the question if there is an earth strap to the engine and while we are at it, is there a suppressor on the spark plug?

Isn't an earth strap for battery-equipped vehicles? In any case, no, there's isn't one on these scooters. Just a ground from the stator plate to the body, and another ground from the cdi to the engine.

No suppressor on the spark plug either.

 

[Tarlow]

Turn the meter selector switch 2 clicks to the right where it shows 200 V, this will measure AC , depending on the meter it should give an accurate reading then connect to the lamp as you were doing it before and note the reading. As you have a DC gauge you need a better rectifier and a voltage regulator but you do need a good idea of the voltage range in AC before a suitable regulator will work across idle and full revs.
just one diode will not cut it as you have a frequency change with revs which changes the voltage in DC as presented to the gauge.

OK, now I get it! I'll check that tomorrow and report back.

 

[Tarlow]

So apparently using the right setting on the voltmeter helps a lot

Also, looks like the regulator is in fact fine.

I let the scooter idle a little longer before the video, and the output was consistently around 10V at idle. There are a couple more revs available above what was attained here, but in regular traffic this would be the rev range (giving in the realm of the 12-12.9V mark). Btw, the needle was nearing empty at those "high" revs already.

 

[mainline]

So apparently using the right setting on the voltmeter helps a lot

Also, looks like the regulator is in fact fine.

I let the scooter idle a little longer before the video, and the output was consistently around 10V at idle. There are a couple more revs available above what was attained here, but in regular traffic this would be the rev range (giving in the realm of the 12-12.9V mark). Btw, the needle was nearing empty at those "high" revs already.

Check the dc voltage at the rectifier.

Has there been any alterations to the wiring etc.

Is there room to have a battery ?

 

[Tarlow]

There is no rectifier, and no flasher relay either (no turn signals). I posted the diagram to show that the current wasn't transformed on its way to the gauge. The rectifier was fitted to some models for the horn for some markets, but not on mine.

The only alterations to the wiring were to add a brake switch to the handlebar in line with the foot pedal brake switch; also, the brake pedal is fed through the main circuit instead of having its own wiring, and the rear light has its own wire coming from the regulator. Nothing that interferes with the gauge circuit as far as I can tell.

A battery could always be fitted, but the point of this bike being all AC is to keep it simple and easy to repair and maintain. I'd rather avoid that route.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Phew, thats better. Let me look for a proper rectifier and suitable regulator to give a consistent DC voltage, you may have to play around with the resister to get a full scale reading when talk is full, or you may want to get an empty indication when the tank is very low, its often hard to get both without alot of playing around.

 

[mainline]

There is no rectifier, and no flasher relay either (no turn signals). I posted the diagram to show that the current wasn't transformed on its way to the gauge. The rectifier was fitted to some models for the horn for some markets, but not on mine.

The only alterations to the wiring were to add a brake switch to the handlebar in line with the foot pedal brake switch; also, the brake pedal is fed through the main circuit instead of having its own wiring, and the rear light has its own wire coming from the regulator. Nothing that interferes with the gauge circuit as far as I can tell.

A battery could always be fitted, but the point of this bike being all AC is to keep it simple and easy to repair and maintain. I'd rather avoid that route.

Try shorting the diode out and see how it reacts.

Connected correctly, the coils will balance, leaving only the variation in the sender resistance to unbalance it and move the needle.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Just had a look and the proper Vespa rectifier is cheap enough and at least it is designed for the frequency range

Regulator / Rectifier 4-Pin for Vespa PK 50, PX 80, PK 125, P 200, PX 200, Cosa, XL2

Regulator / Rectifier 4-Pin for Vespa PK 50, PX 80, PK 125, P 200, PX 200, Cosa, XL2

euroscooterparts.co.uk

 

[Tarlow]

Try shorting the diode out and see how it reacts.

This particular gauge didn't have a diode at first. When connected to AC, no reaction at all. When connected to a battery, it would move with the float.

 

[Tarlow]

Just had a look and the proper Vespa rectifier is cheap enough and at least it is designed for the frequency range

Regulator / Rectifier 4-Pin for Vespa PK 50, PX 80, PK 125, P 200, PX 200, Cosa, XL2

Regulator / Rectifier 4-Pin for Vespa PK 50, PX 80, PK 125, P 200, PX 200, Cosa, XL2

euroscooterparts.co.uk

Isn't that for a battery model? There are 4 pins, and I only have 3 wires for the regulator.

 

[mainline]

This particular gauge didn't have a diode at first. When connected to AC, no reaction at all. When connected to a battery, it would move with the float.

Did it move the gauge correctly. ?
Is the AC fuel gauge not available ?

You could use a bridge rectifier and variable voltage regulator circuit, but better to get the one suggested.

 

[DPG]

I think I'd just lift the filler cap and have a look

 

[Tarlow]

Did it move the gauge correctly. ?
Is the AC fuel gauge not available ?

You could use a bridge rectifier and variable voltage regulator circuit, but better to get the one suggested.

It seemed to more or less, but this was off the bike, with no revs to affect it.

The AC fuel gauge acts exactly the same on this bike. It also has a diode and a resistor, which is why I fitted a diode to this one (which as a DC unit originally, didn't have one) to see if it would work.

The regulator suggested is for battery models apparently, and has 4 pins, while my circuit is just ground, hot wire from the stator, and wire out.

 

[Tarlow]

I think I'd just lift the filler cap and have a look

Haha it certainly would be more simple, but I'm not acrobatic enough to do all that whilst driving

 

[plugsandsparks]

Isn't that for a battery model? There are 4 pins, and I only have 3 wires for the regulator.

The diagram you posted for the non battery model has 4 pins, there are only 2 wires to the regulator and what looks like 2 wires to the outputs of which one is the horn. For what it costs, its got to be worth getting it , connecting the 2 wires to the regulator as per diagram and then measuring the DC output using your meter as per diagram. If you get around 10VDC solid through the rev range , then jobs a good un.. you just then need to adjust the resistor to get the correct readings on the gauge- OR take a road trip to Derbyshire England and i do it myself....

 

[Tarlow]

The diagram you posted for the non battery model has 4 pins, there are only 2 wires to the regulator and what looks like 2 wires to the outputs of which one is the horn. For what it costs, its got to be worth getting it , connecting the 2 wires to the regulator as per diagram and then measuring the DC output using your meter as per diagram. If you get around 10VDC solid through the rev range , then jobs a good un.. you just then need to adjust the resistor to get the correct readings on the gauge- OR take a road trip to Derbyshire England and i do it myself....

The link you posted is for a regulator/rectifier. Do you mean I should somehow hook it up as per the diagram to the current 3 pole regulator, or just replace the 3 pole with this 4 pole?


In which case the hot wire incoming from the stator would connect to either G, and the wire going to the circuit (and gauge) to the A, correct? I might actually be able to borrow a similar regulator from a different scooter to try it out.

 

[plugsandsparks]

There does appear to be an issue with the diagram as the fuel gauge looks to be fed by AC, as i think (its hard to tell and someone has used a highlighter on it which makes it difficult to check colours BUT a regulator/rectifer is much more useful than separate items for sure. It sounds like you have a regulator but not a rectifier, hence you get a nice even AC voltage but very little DC. Its certainly doable to get rid of your exiting regulator and replace with a combined device like the one mentioned. You will need the instructions that come with the device to ensure the correct wires go to the correct terminals, the one in the picture i think tries to help but i cannot make it out.
Also the diagram appears to show a low fuel light - but cannot be sure.

 

[Tarlow]

Yes, the fuel gauge is fed by AC, and the diode keeps the current going one way.

There is a low fuel warning light, whose circuit closes once the float reaches the lowest point of the sender range. That works fine.

Here's the diagram without the highlights: