genny system

[Bernard1991]

hi i have a thread under noisy contactor and said i would put annother thread up relating to a side subject from that thread

(please do not reply untill this part in the brackets is deleted just got the original design up for now not got enough time to show the changes that will be made from the knowlege i learnt in my previous thread shall get the second part of up tomorrow then remove this section in brackets many thanks bernie)

 

[Bernard1991]

original system (scrapped looking for new ideas)

** Ignore this bit the idea has been scrapped I'm looking for new ideas, toward the end of the thread (page2) **

note: not in operation genny has not been connect nor will be conneted untill everything is complete
the genny has a output of 6.5kva

here is the original version i first put together
1) its a two contactor system both n/o
2) each contactor has its own control relay (2a 250v contact double pole, 12v dc coil with internal diode)
3) the main change over relay is a double pole double throw (two way) and the n/c connection (when the relay is dead) goes to the mains contactor control relay and the coil (230v) is energised when the genney is powered up and switched on at the main unit (switch is 250v rated) thus turning off the relay controling the mains contactor and energising the genny contactor control relay then engageing the contactor
4) both contactors has its own lumination on the main unit to tell the user if its engaged
5) the main unit has a lumination to tell the internal dc transformer is working
6) volt and amp meter telles user how much current is being used and the voltage out put (so i can work out how much power is being used and how much surplus there is)
7) everything is fused to protect the circuit
8) start and stop button for remote start and stop (when the genny has a auto choke and starter motor installed)

images below:

 

[Engineer54]

Well there is no way you can provide a mechanical interlock on what you have there!!

If you're determined to include a Generator into your mains system, then be wise and purchase a made for purpose Transfer/changeover switch either manually operated or automatic...

What is the make/model of the generator you intend to use for this installation, and does it incorporate a decent AVR on the alternators output??

 

[Knobhead]

Something’s going to go bang with that setup. Just hope no one gets hurt.

 

[Bernard1991]

Hi engineer I am totally re designing the part of the system with the contactors I shall be changing them to the same make moving both into the same box and having a interlock between them I asked in the first post if everyone could hold off a reply till I got the second half on only wanted to show the changes from what I had to what I will have from what I've been told and advised on what I got now is being scrapped (least the contactors in two places) shall have the other section on tomorrow not got enough time now as I'm in work at 8:15
shall also get the exact model number off the genny after work it's buried in the shed at this moment in time

 

[spark 68]

You may want to consider two timers in the control circuit of the contactors, this will stop the "chatter" problem alluded to by Lucien in the other thread.

The contactors will have to be physically side by side to fit the mechanical interlock between them

 

[Rockingit]

As much as I admire spirited thinking and creativity...... are we simply not just reinventing the wheel, here? An off the shelf changeover unit would be much quicker and cheaper?!

 

[Bernard1991]

They will be side by side mate the armoured cable going to the shed is a 6mm 4core (not ideall would rarther have two cables but it's only temp till the shed is re built in the near future)
how ever I have found a good price changer over switch on eBay (£60 with a clad box) only concern I have with a switch is it's inaccessible where the house c/u is I'll have my mother call me every time the power goes out and why there's no power when the genny is running and not something I want if I'm ever fault finding a pain in the back side break in a ring main but if the new version I have in mind is still a big concern I'll just scrap the lot and go with a change over switch and ignore any calls from my mother when at work

 

[Bernard1991]

As much as I admire spirited thinking and creativity...... are we simply not just reinventing the wheel, here? An off the shelf changeover unit would be much quicker and cheaper?!

possibly if you know to a place that has them for less than £100 so far I spent less than that (£50 I can get back just wacking the contactors I got on eBay as for the relays I'm allways dabbling with electronic circuits so will find some other use for them)

 

[spark 68]

IME buying off the shelf ATS works out cheaper for the smaller sizes, and will be compliant, making your own does work out cheaper for the larger sizes or custom built ones sometimes, but building your own needs properly testing and certifying, I have done both.

 

[Bernard1991]

Just had a look on rs components and found out there's 4pole contactors with two n/o and two n/c poles

if I can get a 63a 4pole 2n/c and 2n/o (our main fuse is 60a) contactor would it be better and be safer and also have a delay on it to allow the genny time to fully spin up

so say have the genny on the n/o side and the mains on the n/c side start the genny when there's a power cut after 3 seconds or more the contactor will energise and isolate the mains and connect the genny to the house

whats you views on this guys?

 

[spark 68]

Please do not try to do this on the cheap, no disrespect meant, but you are clearly out of your depth.
Either buy a proper bespoke system, or forget it.

There are implications that you have not thought of, and attempting to do what you are trying to achieve will likely end in tears.

The internet is no way to try to learn what you are trying to do.

This is the best advice I can give you.
Sorry I am out.

 

[Bernard1991]

I'm not trying to do it on the cheap if I wanted to do it on the cheap I would have got a £60 basics changeover switch in a metal clad box but though my mum knows 0 about electrics so would be better if all she had to do is turn the generator on and not have to climb on chairs just to flick the switch to change it over she isn't getting any younger neither is my dad and I won't be living at home forever so I come on here to learn about generator installations and work out the best course without it costing a arm and a leg

at least I sought advice before going any further I knew a guy who had a length of flex with two plug tops one either end he pluged into his genny and the other into a socket then he would turn the main switch off on the c/u then start up the genny now surely you cannot get any more dangerous than that no Rcd protection and no fool proof isolation

 

[Plonker 3]

I'm not trying to do it on the cheap if I wanted to do it on the cheap I would have got a £60 basics changeover switch in a metal clad box but though my mum knows 0 about electrics so would be better if all she had to do is turn the generator on and not have to climb on chairs just to flick the switch to change it over she isn't getting any younger neither is my dad and I won't be living at home forever so I come on here to learn about generator installations and work out the best course without it costing a arm and a leg

at least I sought advice before going any further I knew a guy who had a length of flex with two plug tops one either end he pluged into his genny and the other into a socket then he would turn the main switch off on the c/u then start up the genny now surely you cannot get any more dangerous than that no Rcd protection and no fool proof isolation

Please don't tell me you are serious?

The courses have a cost for a reason, not to deter you from doing them but because of the effort and time people have put in learning about them so it can be done safely.

That statement makes a Electrical Trainee sound lime they know what they are doing.

 

[UNG]

To the OP
Cost cannot be the main and overriding concern where safety of the user and others is put at risk for the sake of a few pounds this coupled with the distinct lack of knowledge you possess regarding generator switching is a recipe for disaster

Your best option is forget it or spend some cash and get someone in who knows what they are doing

 

[Bernard1991]

Well I'm just going to scrap the lot and go back to basics (no pun intended)
below is a picture of a basics changeover switch generator transfer 125a single phase metal clad m125cs (that's how it's advertised) will that be ok?
And later ill put the model number of the generator I have and ask if that's ok to use

 

[Clive P]

Hi,

Surely you can get hold of an Automatic Change-Over switch, then your parents can sit back in comfort and let the little magic box do its business.

Regards.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I can see a number of worrying things there. But let's start with that connector marked 'hook up to genny'. Am I going blind or is that a socket-outlet? Please correct me if I am not seeing it for what it is...

And another thing that's actually more dangerous, do I see the tops of the contactors accessible from outside the enclosures, so anybody could (intentionally or accidentally) press the manual operation button and cross-connect the two sources?

Perhaps I had better not look any more...

 

[Bernard1991]

I can see a number of worrying things there. But let's start with that connector marked 'hook up to genny'. Am I going blind or is that a socket-outlet? Please correct me if I am not seeing it for what it is...

And another thing that's actually more dangerous, do I see the tops of the contactors accessible from outside the enclosures, so anybody could (intentionally or accidentally) press the manual operation button and cross-connect the two sources?

Perhaps I had better not look any more...

It's a 32 amp three pin socket (like on a caravan)
but I have scrapped the idea now so it's redundant and will be removed

 

[Lucien Nunes]

So you had a plug connected to a source of energy. With apologies for the pun, I recommend you pull the plug on this project and have a commercial transfer switch fitted. It really isn't worth the (many) risks you are taking with the present setup, due to lack of familiarity with the requirements.

 

[Bernard1991]

I have scrapped it and shall put the contactors used on eBay to get my money back
The immage I put on post 16 would that be safe to use for what I intend in terms of a manual change over
and shall like said in other posts look into a proper pre build control unit as a second option and get a good wiring diagram wire it up myself following it and get it properly commissioned and even have the commissioners number to hand if I get stuck (should be fine with a wiring diagram first year college I was drawing them up and in electronics I was making timer circuits and led light circuits all for 12v dc use and not ever supplied by 230v power)

But all this hinges on the generator and here's some info on it
couldn't get it all it's seriously buried under who knows what

aulternator
type. Mr1180 j609b
code. 0330202235
Date. 1999

output:
50hz
56a 110v
26a 230v

engine rpm 3000
made by. Vanguard
if there's anything more in particular anyone needs to know off the alternator let me know and I'll see if I can find it

 

[Lighthouse Phil]

last thing I need is to be pulled into a can of worms here...
I work with auto change over gents on a almost daily basis... Buy a Mains Fail change over contactor unit off the shelf,, it will have all the wiring already done and will include a mechanical interlock too.
By the sound of the description of your genny, I don't think I will have a decent AVR, so don't supply any sensitive electronics with it...
Have you thought about Earthing of the genny ?? It will need its own earth rod / matt and neutral and earth linked in the alternator
The list could continue....

 

[Bernard1991]

Hi Phil I had a feeling I would have to do something with re guards to earthing other than just it's supplied earth
I did think on the lines of a earth rod in the ground connecting to the neutral like you said I presumed this as when I was studying electrical they told us a bit about transformers on the grid and the earth was linked to the neutral and rodded to ground, won't go into it too much as we all know why it's done that way (different kettle of fish a transformer from a genny I know)

ill see if I can find a wiring diagram for the genny but on top of alternator there's a box with two 110v plugs and two 230v plugs with thermal cut outs built in for both voltages and a switch on the front to change it from 110 to 230 and all the cables come out of the alternator into it

as for the changing over from mains to genny my dad wants it to be manual (to quote him simplicity is efficient) so a few posts back I put a picture of a basics generator change over switch will that be good to use or would you recogmend something else that would be better suited?

As for the AVR I'll see if I can find one for my genny
And the only electronics we have is the useuall house hold items tv, sky, computers, router, iphone, iPad and drivers for led down lights if you want to count them

 

[Engineer54]

And the only electronics we have is the useuall house hold items tv, sky, computers, router, iphone, iPad and drivers for led down lights if you want to count them

All of which can be blown/damaged by a genny without a decent AVR of one kind or another...

An ATS can also be used in manual operation, and to be honest, if this gen-set/transfer switch is not going to be located in an easily accessible location, then ATS operation makes much more sense than manual operation. Especially if it means going outside in the pouring rain etc, to switch the damn thing on or off!!

 

[Darkwood]

Contactor buzzing! we have either saved your day or shown you the path to a nightmare ....either way i hope you can now appreciate why you were initially been given a rough ride ..... i hope by now you can appreciate with the wiring plan you originally supplied you were way off mark and in for a steep learning curve .... given both the threads there are still areas we haven't even mentioned ... im thinking you dont really get it that you can't design a compliant system by forum shopping and picking it up bit by bit....

A little knowledge is your enemy here and just wish you would appreciate the regulations and standards you need to comply to; some life critical others down to simple things like correct panel design etc (ot so critical).... no offense but you could be several yrs off the knowledge required to get this right.

 

[Geordie Spark]

You'll find some nice genny stuff in here.

Souter Lighthouse | Worldwide Lighthouses

 

[Silly Sausage]

Your man has been dribbling on about automatic Gen changeover so his wrinklinly old mother doesn't have to stand on a chair to turn a switch.
She's still going to have to leg it down the the shed in dark to turn the damned thing on.


OP, I think you'll find your parent(s) can manage quite well without you!

 

[Knobhead]

OP, I think you'll find your parent(s) can manage quite well without you!

Thanks Archy, thats summed it all up!

(I hate giving Archy a thanks)

 

[UNG]

She's still going to have to leg it down the the shed in dark to turn the damned thing on.

Or top up the fuel or is that the next automated project

 

[Plonker 3]

Or top up the fuel or is that the next automated project

Better prepare for a thread on how to terminate MIMMS then

 

[Bernard1991]

Was them last three posts (#27, #29, #30) realy neciccerry I don't mind a little criticism but taking the Micky is uncalled for ok I may have been wrong about something and I admit it that's what these forums are for to double check these thins
but it doesn't give anyone the right to take wet it's immature understandable if you knew me and I was a complete ----er but you don't know me and I'm not

getting back to to the subject I want to get this sorted and get it done so it's safe either way I'll have a certified guy check it over and to get advice from

as as for starting the genny my dad can install a proper starter and auto choke to it (he used to work on the engines that power small gennys, mowers and other garden equipment he's a old school mechanic)
then I can put together a little unit in the house with a start and stop key or button or combination of the two and the fuel tank is simpler just find a tank with a larger capacity and install it where the genny will be permanently fixed
then have a manual change over switch, all that if I choose to not use a completely automatic system
so I shall have a look on that site that Geordie spark gave me

 

[spark 68]

Here is something for you to have a look at Bernard:

Automatic Transfer Switches: FW Power Diesel Generators

I am not suggesting you buy from these, nor recommending them either, (no connection to them etc.etc.), just purely so you have an idea what is involved.

As others have said the generator you have will more than likely be unsuitable for what you have in mind.

 

[Lighthouse Phil]

Used Generators for Sale by FW Power - New and Used Diesel Generator Supplier

OP, take a look at the Lister engine / alternator for sale here. Its a Lister HR2, a work horse of an engine, coupled with a decent alternator., but the control cabinet has a new 'Deep Sea Unit' as its brains,, these units can be programmed to do so much and give so much info about the state of the engine. All new cabinets that are being installed on Irish Lighthouses use these Deep Sea units.

 

[timbobelfast]

Hope you have thought about the noise aspect of the gen because I have lived on a gen power army base lol. And the noise is intense even in a well designed gen pad lol

Have you also found out why the prime power is so un- reliant also? Is it location?

Who is the DNO?

 

[Bernard1991]

Hi timbobelfast
if I read your questions correctly I'm not sure why our main supply from our dno (westernpower) sometimes cuts out, it's more reliable than it was, it used to allways go out when the weather changed but now it's random last time was dude to maintenance of the lines and the transformer for my area is in a near by field (we live out I the country side nearest town is two miles)
the reliability of our mains is good just handy to have a back up incase the power is off for a long period and with news reports of planned black outs in 2014/2015 we will be the first to be turned off
heard reports that they won't be so bad (say the government) but I don't believe it by a long shot but let's not drift to polotics allways end in arguments lol

and if your last question was to see if I know who they are there the company who own the power network and operate it

I used to install solar electric systems for a company (I just put inverter up and connected everything up tested and switched it all on) and they had to inform the dno for that area about the install amongst other things I wasn't involved in the office I was just the installer and the office signed it all off from the test results I sent them then after they told me the readings where acceptable I then done the big turn on (but that's annother subject and won't go into it too much)

as for noise I know some can make be quite loud so It would have to be shut down after a certain time of night

 

[UNG]

Was them last three posts (#27, #29, #30) realy neciccerry I don't mind a little criticism but taking the Micky is uncalled for ok I may have been wrong about something and I admit it that's what these forums are for to double check these thins
but it doesn't give anyone the right to take wet it's immature understandable if you knew me and I was a complete ----er but you don't know me and I'm not

getting back to to the subject I want to get this sorted and get it done so it's safe either way I'll have a certified guy check it over and to get advice from

as as for starting the genny my dad can install a proper starter and auto choke to it (he used to work on the engines that power small gennys, mowers and other garden equipment he's a old school mechanic)
then I can put together a little unit in the house with a start and stop key or button or combination of the two and the fuel tank is simpler just find a tank with a larger capacity and install it where the genny will be permanently fixed
then have a manual change over switch, all that if I choose to not use a completely automatic system
so I shall have a look on that site that Geordie spark gave me

In your first paragraph you summed yourself up perfectly if you take life to seriously I don't recommend posting anything on a forum

re post #29 You seem to have over looked a lot of things so I was just making sure you had addressed the fuel supply

I assume you are aware of the fuel storage regulations for your larger tank or is that just another minor technical problem to sort

This whole thing to me appears to a very expensive solution to provide a small amount of power as the generator would need to be run regularly to prevent engine and fuel system problems and then you have the problem of the fuel in the tank going stale before it is used as well

You might actually be better with a battery bank and an inverter

 

[Engineer54]

Used Generators for Sale by FW Power - New and Used Diesel Generator Supplier

OP, take a look at the Lister engine / alternator for sale here. Its a Lister HR2, a work horse of an engine, coupled with a decent alternator., but the control cabinet has a new 'Deep Sea Unit' as its brains,, these units can be programmed to do so much and give so much info about the state of the engine. All new cabinets that are being installed on Irish Lighthouses use these Deep Sea units.

Is that Lister HR2 engine 2 stroke or 4 stroke??

 

[Engineer54]

You might actually be better with a battery bank and an inverter

Battery storage for any decent capacity or length of time via an inverter, is going to be far more expensive, in both the short and long term of the system than a standby genset.
Hazard a guess of the cost of batteries that can supply say a 5kw load for 3 hours through a suitably sized/rated inverter??

No idea about petrol fueled engines, as i've never used them, but you shouldn't have much if any of a problem with modern diesel fuels. Nothing stopping you running the system for 15 minutes or so say every month, to keep the all the moving parts of the engine lubricated.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

2 stroke or 4 stroke

The HR series are aircooled 4-stroke D/I diesels of about 1000cc P/C, widely used for construction plant, gensets, pumps, marine aux. duty & small inland craft propulsion. Also made in watercooled form as the HRW. Long time since I had one of those apart!

 

[Knobhead]

Lister will be diesel, lovely things.

One thing about large fuel tanks, both diesel and petrol go “sour” after six months or so due to evaporation and settlement.

To keep the engine in condition it needs to be run on load regularly. Otherwise it cokes up. I’ll guarantee it fails when you need it!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Lister will be diesel, lovely things.

One thing about large fuel tanks, both diesel and petrol go “sour” after six months or so due to evaporation and settlement.

To keep the engine in condition it needs to be run on load regularly. Otherwise it cokes up. I’ll guarantee it fails when you need it!

Those Listers were very popular for gen sets. The pub that my dad used to go to had its own generator because it was way out in the country. I think I was about 6 years old and liked to watch the genny and listen to it while he was drinking his pint.

A couple of years later, there was a lot of houses being built around us and we kids would wander around the building sites watching the men working - just try doing that nowadays. we saw front tipping dumpers, cement mixers, plaster mixers, saw benches and God knows what else all powered by these Lister diesels. They were air cooled and would run day in & day out rain, hail or shine. You'll find them as the propulsion unit on narrow boats too.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If you like Listers, see my 1941 searchlight set:
Hand-starting Lister 22kW Searchlight generator - YouTube
Second start after a few decades standing idle.

 

[JD6400]

Not sure about white diesel , but by all accounts as from early last year red diesel now has to have a % of bio diesel blended into it .
This has been causing a lot of problems in new machines as it has been gelling up in pipe work and fuel pumps if left to stand for long periods !
We even had a 2012 drier go down last season because the owner had filled it with red at the end of the last season , I eventually found it had jammed up the non return back to the tank .
One of the agricultural dealership's that we do a lot of work with have been pushing an additive that goes into the main holding tank ( and vehicle tanks as well if needed ) , it is meant to kill " fuel bugs" !
By all accounts their is such a thing !!!?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

We tend to use bio-free red in the boat for exactly that reason. It's a bit more expensive but available right where we usually moor which makes it more attractive. The tank is quite large relative to the engine consumption so the turnover is fairly slow. Even the most fuel-tolerant diesel engine with heated lines that can burn heavy residual oils, won't work on jelly.

 

[Engineer54]

The HR series are aircooled 4-stroke D/I diesels of about 1000cc P/C, widely used for construction plant, gensets, pumps, marine aux. duty & small inland craft propulsion. Also made in watercooled form as the HRW. Long time since I had one of those apart!

I'm basically more used to far larger standby and to a lesser extent prime power gensets. Probably the smallest being 1200 KVA but generally in the 1600 to 2200 KVA either singles or twin sets. My choice of engine for standby duty is the 2 stroke Detroit Diesel. They can't be touched for bringing the load on line in the shortest possible time, totally outclasses any 4 strokers. Wouldn't use a 2 stroker for prime power though, that is definitely the 4 strokers domain....

Lister will be diesel, lovely things.

One thing about large fuel tanks, both diesel and petrol go “sour” after six months or so due to evaporation and settlement.

To keep the engine in condition it needs to be run on load regularly. Otherwise it cokes up. I’ll guarantee it fails when you need it!

Never had any problems with diesel fuel storage to be totally honest, (most of ours were 1 or 2 week bulk storage tanks on the standby sets) and most of the projects i've worked on have been in the hotter climates. Even the old problems of extreme cold affecting fuel oils have been virtually eliminated by the additives they use these days. Yes the engines are/were run regularly, no more than an hour a month (whether they had been in service or not) on in situ 60% load banks.

 

[shanky887614]

Save your self a headache and get a battery bank and inverter, if you wanted chuck a couple solar panels in to recharge batteries

 

[Bernard1991]

There's a stabiliser you can buy for petrol that stops it going off that said I got a old bsa d7 bantam and the two stroke fuel in it is over three years old and the old bike runs off it, it must be as combustible as diesel by now
returning to the subject there's no way I can talk my dad to having batteries, l-ion will cost a bomb and acid types will be wrecked every two or three years from the frost and cold weather then there's the inverter and I have never heard of a cheap inverter with a 5kw out put and to sustain that output for just an hour I would need a lot of amp hours on the battery/ 's (or higher voltage depends on what the inverter runs on and requires) where with a petrol genny it's easy if the plug gets coaked up whip it out get a wire brush on it and should be fine (so long as it's a good make plug champion is a brilliant make can forget ngk plugs, in the three years I had my first car I only had to swap the plugs once which was from ngk to champion) and exhausts don't really coak up its two stroke engines that are horrible for coaking up the exhaust

what I will do later today is ill drag off the rubbish on my genny get it's details google them and get all the info about it then post on here that information if it's not suitable for my purpose but can be made suitable then if it's not more costly to sort the existing genny than get one Allready suited then I'll go down that road

 

[Engineer54]

Save your self a headache and get a battery bank and inverter, if you wanted chuck a couple solar panels in to recharge batteries

I'm sure he would, if you care to pay out for them!! As i stated earlier, check out the cost of those batteries, and then add the cost of solar panels/inverter system!!

 

[Bernard1991]

I'll take a look
any ideas where the best place is to look google is sending me in circles how ever I found one 4.4kw that can be charged by a generator or solar and even charges it's self off the mains and has a built in ats

 

[Engineer54]

I'll take a look

You would be far better off looking at the cost of that Lister driven genset, and with only 400 run hours... That set-up will probably give you years and years of worry free service with minimum but adequate maintenance... Still may be well out of you're price range mind!! lol!!

The battery/inverter route is a non starter unless you have the storage space with a free or forced airflow, to cater for the amount of batteries you'll require, even if it's designed for 3KW for 3 hours. Anything under 3 hours, and you're basically wasting your time, as far as covering power outages for a domestic setting...